Joey Palm death spiral - What's going on with the new spears?

[piping plovers]

Can anyone tell by the photos below of the small newly emerging spear and the tall unfolding spear of my potted Joey palm (Johannesteijsmannia altifrons) if this appears to be signs of overwatering or underwatering or attempted recovery of either?

Four weeks ago I noticed drying older leaves and I assumed it needed water.  Upon inspecting closely, I was alarmed to see that the small emerging spear was papery grey (texture almost like a wasp nest) and somewhat spiraled trying to unfurl way too prematurely.  The long spear was now unfurled and spreading out to the normal diamond shape.  As you can see in photos below, the 3 or 4 latest leaves still seem okay; but I have since removed 3 or 4 oldest dried out leaves.  The two spears are most worrying to me and I'm feeling like my treasured Joey is in a death spiral or maybe trying to come out of one.

I broke my #1 rule of plant watering and watered the palm on a weekly basis rather than on as-needed basis (which for this plant is typically every 10 days indoors winter).  The palm was deep in the sunroom, i couldn't reach it to give it the pick up/weight test to assess need for water and I couldn't reach to give the finger test.  Big mistake. Long story--but the palm is 50 miles away from me in past months and I can only get there 1x/week lately.

Anyhow, after seeing the papery spear 2 weeks ago, I then figured this was overwatering because the bottom pot holes seemed too damp. I ceased watering.  I noticed a week ago that the large spear that had previously unfurled to a diamond had now CLOSED up; it went in reverse.  I did not water; its been about 10 days and I held back watering.  I ran a stick up throught the drainage to holes to create clear air channels down through the pot.  I just noticed today that the closed up large spear had somewhat started to expand again; maybe a false hope - not sure what is going on with that.

The top layers of soil felt bone dry and the drainage holes seemed drier as far as I can tell after 10 days.  If it was anything other than a Joey I'd pull it out of the pot but it's not worth the risk knowing how sensitive they are to disturbance. I watered the plant the plant today.  I am walking on egg shells on this because I really don't know what the spears are telling me - overwatering or underwatering.

Sorry for the long post.  Anyone else recognize this situation in your growing experience?

Photos below of the small and large spears; other leaves of plant.  And the good condition of the plant just months ago in the blue pot photo.

Thank you!

 

photos:

4 weeks ago the new small spear papery and the large spear unfurled into diamond shape.

 

a week ago and the unfurled diamond went into reverse and closed into a spear again…

photos today with the closed spear somewhat expanding again and spiraled.  The smaller spear not really changed over weeks.

 

My joey months ago In it’s glory before losing all the bottom leaves 

[cristi]

I had the same problem with a Licuala Peltata var.  Sumawongii after I added Humus + Fe supplement. It finally recovered after a year. I was convinced it is going to die. 

Did you fertilized yours?

Do not do this during winter season.

Drying spear is a very bad sign.

Edited January 1, 2022 by cristi

[D. Morrowii]

I wonder if the soil you’re using sheds nutrients quickly? From what I’ve read distortions, twisting, curling and the like are usually related to a boron deficiency. I don't have any experience with that type of palm but I would be thinking some type of micro nutrient deficiency. 

[piping plovers]

thank you both for reading through the long post and providing some insight.  It never occurred to me that it might be a nutrient deficiency.
 

 I used to fertilize with a weak solution every other watering or once monthly in winter.  Since they pushed spears all year I would continue even in winter.

The palms have been neglected past few months especially since I purchased all these anthuriums this year and am trying to learn their culture.

Anyhow, will let the palm dry out another week and when ready for watering will add a weak fertilizer if the Joey holds out that long.  Few more spear pics today.

 

5 hours ago, cristi said:

 

I had the same problem with a Licuala Peltata var.  Sumawongii after I added Humus + Fe supplement. It finally recovered after a year. I was convinced it is going to die. 

Did you fertilized yours?

 

 

I’m glad your Sumawongii pulled through, this gives me some hope.  Sumawongii is definitely worth the effort to save.

4 hours ago, D. Morrowii said:

 

I wonder if the soil you’re using sheds nutrients quickly? From what I’ve read distortions, twisting, curling and the like are usually related to a boron deficiency.

 

Yes the media is fast draining, 1/3 leca clay nuggets, pine bark and potting soil —-that could be a factor.  Interesting reading about the twisting symptoms.

[Hurricanepalms]

I am growing three Joeys and your beautifully grown specimen was part of my inspiration to try. I am hoping that your plant is recovering. Any good news to share?

Edited February 19, 2022 by Hurricanepalms

[SeanK]

Perhaps a combination of micronutrients and temperature.

You have a tropical palm; in habitat, temps rarely drop below 60º. I imagine soil temps are very warm also. Without a growing mat, it's impossible to maintain the soil temp where should be. Since the pot is small, I would flood the soil once a week. These palms would normally see an afternoon rain every day. 

[piping plovers]

5 hours ago, Hurricanepalms said:

 

I am growing three Joeys and your beautifully grown specimen was part of my inspiration to try. I am hoping that your plant is recovering. Any good news to share?

 

Thanks for the kind words and best of luck growing your Joeys.  This really was not a difficult plant to grow indoors these past 5 years but  recently I let my guard down on watering I think.  Sadly, it died.  I have sourced another one from CA and will hopefully get it by April.  In 5 years my new one should be at the level of the one I just lost but I’ll keep wondering what the old one would have developed into in 10 years.

[piping plovers]

5 hours ago, SeanK said:

Perhaps a combination of micronutrients and temperature.

Yes, possibly.  What concerns me is that I really don’t know exactly where it went wrong except that I was less diligent this winter than in the past 5 winters.  It could have been root temperate as the Licuala peltata ‘peltata’ adjacent to this Joey near the cold corner of sunroom developed the same issue but I was able to pull it back from the spiral down with placing near heating and with careful watering; they seem more tolerant of overwatering than does the Joey.
 

Luckily, my Licuala peltata ‘Sumawongii’ (another treasure in my indoor collection) did not have any of these issues and I made sure to move it to a warmer spot where I can carefully monitor watering.

 I like your idea of the heating pad.  Indoor growing in the sunroom, Always a choice between higher light closer to windows but further from room heating  —versus —less light away from windows but next to room heating.

[PalmsandLiszt]

11 hours ago, piping plovers said:

This really was not a difficult plant to grow indoors these past 5 years but  recently I let my guard down on watering I think.  Sadly, it died.  I have sourced another one from CA and will hopefully get it by April.  In 5 years my new one should be at the level of the one I just lost but I’ll keep wondering what the old one would have developed into in 10 years.

So the plant in the photos was something like six and a half years from seed? I have four joey seeds potted up (two magnifica) and a further four altifrons germinated that will need potting up soon (and another seven ungerminated from both batches that might or might not come to life), so curious about growth rate in domestic conditions.
You certainly managed to grow a splendid looking specimen, probably in part due to your highly aerated medium promoting efficient uptake of water which stops browning edges in less than optimal humidity. Maybe try switching the leca for seramis or the US equivalent (which I've forgotten the name of) as I understand this binds nutrients better than leca.

I also think I read somewhere that J. perakensis is significantly more forgiving than the rest; I don't know if anyone can corroborate that. Tempted to buy yet more joey seeds to find out.

[piping plovers]

18 hours ago, PalmsandLiszt said:

So the plant in the photos was something like six and a half years from seed?

 

18 hours ago, PalmsandLiszt said:

You certainly managed to grow a splendid looking specimen, probably in part due to your highly aerated medium promoting efficient uptake of water which stops browning edges in less than optimal humidity.

Thank you for the kind words.

As for the age of the plant, since you’re growing seedlings perhaps you might have a better idea of the age of the seedling/small plant I started with in April 2017.  I am estimating it was a 2 year old seedling.  What do you think? Photo below:

 

The next photo was in summer 2021, so 4 years later:

 

If my estimate is correct at a 2 year seedling to start with in 2017, then yes it would be approximately a 6 year old Joey palm.

 

Thanks for the info on the J. perakensis, I’ll see if I can find one of them soon.

Edited February 21, 2022 by piping plovers
Edit

[PalmsandLiszt]

4 hours ago, piping plovers said:

As for the age of the plant, since you’re growing seedlings perhaps you might have a better idea of the age of the seedling/small plant I started with in April 2017.  I am estimating it was a 2 year old seedling.  What do you think? Photo below:

Mine are still doing their remote germination thing, which, given my experience with other remote-germinating plants and joeys' reputation for slowness, I'm guessing will take at least 2-3 months. I've heard anecdotally that 2 leaves/year is typical for seedlings, however, so 2 years seems a good estimate (assuming the small leaf on the left is the eophyll). No doubt how optimal the conditions are will affect this too.

There are some J. perakensis seeds available on RPS at the moment, if you're interested. Joey seeds are big and not at all difficult to germinate (just put them in damp moss and keep them warm).