In depth analysis of the Athens Riviera climate and palm potential

[Victor G.]

31 minutes ago, ego said:

Καλή ιδέα. Το λέω και στους μεσίτες: "Ψάχνω οικόπεδα στη ζώνη ανθεκτικότητας 10a, έχετε τίποτα;" 

Πλάκα-πλάκα χτες κοιτούσα οικόπεδα στο Πέραμα, παρόλο που είναι χάλια περιοχή, είναι η μόνη περιοχή της Αττικής με κλίμα 10b! 

Ποιό Πέραμα... Δικαστικά, 10β οριακά 11α

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[Than]

1 hour ago, Victor G. said:

Ποιό Πέραμα... Δικαστικά, 10β οριακά 11α

Based on your thermometer which is sitting on concrete?

[Victor G.]

21 minutes ago, ego said:

Based on your thermometer which is sitting on concrete?

The night readings are accurate!

[Victor G.]

By the way, Monemvasia displays an extremely mild climate. I've suspected it for one or two years now (seeing how Athens was down to 1C and Monemvasia managed to stay above 5C very often).
I finally did the math and it's one good winter short of becoming 11a! That's gotta be somewhere in the top 10 of Greece, right? @Manos33

[Than]

3 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

By the way, Monemvasia displays an extremely mild climate. I've suspected it for one or two years now (seeing how Athens was down to 1C and Monemvasia managed to stay above 5C very often).
I finally did the math and it's one good winter short of becoming 11a! That's gotta be somewhere in the top 10 of Greece, right? @Manos33

Let's make a palm-geeks' community in Kasos.  

Basically, Monemvasia is just 0,1 below 11a.

[Victor G.]

37 minutes ago, ego said:

Let's make a palm-geeks' community in Kasos.  

Basically, Monemvasia is just 0,1 below 11a.

I've been looking a little at different climates around the world that have the same climate and more or less the same latitude as Athens (and the rest of Greece).
(By same climate I mean more or less by the sea and classified as Csa on the Koeppen scale).

More precisely the mediterranean coast of Spain and Los Angeles, since most of Asia at 38 latitude is deserts and inland, so not comparable.

Basically, regarding low temperatures only, we one of the worst I think.
Alicante in Spain has an all time low of -2,6C.
Los Angeles' is -2C.
Palermo's is 1,4C at sea level, -1,2C at 117m altitude. (Some even have it on 11a Zone)

And now we:

Anavyssos fell at -2,5C on January 2017. The station in by the sea.
Rafina and Nea Makri both recorded -1,8 on January 2017
Piraeus recorded -0,6C on February 2021. The station wasn't active on January 2017, but probably would have recorded lower then.

I looked at the N.O.A. stations and most of them weren't active until 2013 (give or take). If they have recorded, say 30-40 years of data, we would probably see much lower temperatures.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Victor G.

[Victor G.]

An addition:

Thessaloniki is considered 8b/9a zone, while Madrid is 9a. At least according to Wikipedia
Thessaloniki is at sea level (and next to it also), while Madrid is at 820m elevation and literally in the centre of the iberian peninsula (so way inland).

[Than]

5 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

I've been looking a little at different climates around the world that have the same climate and more or less the same latitude as Athens (and the rest of Greece).
(By same climate I mean more or less by the sea and classified as Csa on the Koeppen scale).

More precisely the mediterranean coast of Spain and Los Angeles, since most of Asia at 38 latitude is deserts and inland, so not comparable.

Basically, regarding low temperatures only, we one of the worst I think.
Alicante in Spain has an all time low of -2,6C.
Los Angeles' is -2C.
Palermo's is 1,4C at sea level, -1,2C at 117m altitude. (Some even have it on 11a Zone)

And now we:

Anavyssos fell at -2,5C on January 2017. The station in by the sea.
Rafina and Nea Makri both recorded -1,8 on January 2017
Piraeus recorded -0,6C on February 2021. The station wasn't active on January 2017, but probably would have recorded lower then.

I looked at the N.O.A. stations and most of them weren't active until 2013 (give or take). If they have recorded, say 30-40 years of data, we would probably see much lower temperatures.

Yeah, we are the hottest and also the coldest at this altitude; worst combination. Cos of our proximity to Siberia. On the bright side, we have some of the warmest places (Kasos).

[Victor G.]

1 minute ago, ego said:

Yeah, we are the hottest and also the coldest at this altitude; worst combination. Cos of our proximity to Siberia. On the bright side, we have some of the warmest places (Kasos).

Definitely, there's no arguing that we have some very mild areas.
I'm mostly talking about continental Greece (with a fixation on Athens).

Imagine how our climate would be if we didn't get this constant wind from Siberia.
The Cyclades are already warm in the summer and with constant northerly winds. Picture a wind-free summer there!

[Than]

4 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Definitely, there's no arguing that we have some very mild areas.
I'm mostly talking about continental Greece (with a fixation on Athens).

Imagine how our climate would be if we didn't get this constant wind from Siberia.
The Cyclades are already warm in the summer and with constant northerly winds. Picture a wind-free summer there!

Some dreams hurt son. Don't do them. Attica is basically right on the margin/edge between 10a/9b. On the edge between where you can grow many cool species and where you cannot. Best place for frustration! If it were just 100km more south...........

[Victor G.]

1 minute ago, ego said:

If it were just 100km more south...........

True...

I propose THIS IDEA to combat the cold air masses! Who's with me?

[Phoenikakias]

33 minutes ago, ego said:

Yeah, we are the hottest and also the coldest at this altitude; worst combination. Cos of our proximity to Siberia. On the bright side, we have some of the warmest places (Kasos).

Welcome to bitter reality.  I was always wondering whether it is worth trying to cultivate more marginal palms in Attica.  Having in mind my past experience and the new pests, my answer is a big NO. That is to much! Were I young again, I would certainly not jump in to the hobby.

 

[Phoenikakias]

9 hours ago, ego said:

Καλή ιδέα. Το λέω και στους μεσίτες: "Ψάχνω οικόπεδα στη ζώνη ανθεκτικότητας 10a, έχετε τίποτα;" 

Πλάκα-πλάκα χτες κοιτούσα οικόπεδα στο Πέραμα, παρόλο που είναι χάλια περιοχή, είναι η μόνη περιοχή της Αττικής με κλίμα 10b! 

Vravrona!

[Than]

Just now, Phoenikakias said:

Vravrona!

Why Vravrona?

[Phoenikakias]

1 minute ago, ego said:

Why Vravrona?

Because I like the name, it reminds me of Valrhona...

[Phoenikakias]

Besides it is a fair bit inland, so protected from the strong wind, give or take semi-montane, thus with a better soil and a couple times I passed by during winter, it was sunny and very pleasant temperaturewise.

[Than]

2 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Because I like the name, it reminds me of Valrhona...

[Victor G.]

7 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Vravrona!

I don't know, Porto Rafti which is also enclosed in a Gulf is 10a (and relatively far from 10b)
Unless Vravrona has some extreme microclimate

[Phoenikakias]

15 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

I don't know, Porto Rafti which is also enclosed in a Gulf is 10a (and relatively far from 10b)
Unless Vravrona has some extreme microclimate

Almost entire milder part of Attica is 10a, so actually this is the best zone one can get. And I completely agree with the assessment that the local 10A is actually transitional between 9B and 10A. Practically latter means, that one has to take protection measures for 10A palms  when an extraordinary cold spell is expected within January, if he does not wish to take serious risks. So not very much difference between 10 A and 9B.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Phoenikakias

[Than]

8 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Almost entire milder part of Attica is 10a, so actually this is the best zone one can get. And I completely agree with the assessment that the local 10A is actually transitional between 9B and 10A. Practically latter means, that one has to take protection measures for 10A palms  when an extraordinary cold spell is expected within January, if he does not wish to take serious risks. So not very much difference between 10 A and 9B.

I guess rather than using zones we should make a distinction between those areas where temperatures drop below 0, and those areas where they don't. For instance, Nea Makri has seen -1 before but Lavrio hasn't (?).  I think we can draw a line kind of in the middle of Attica, from Rafina to Peiraeus. Coastal areas below that line don't see temperatures below 0. 

[Than]

Oh yes, with some exceptions, like Dikastika 

[Victor G.]

9 minutes ago, ego said:

I guess rather than using zones we should make a distinction between those areas where temperatures drop below 0, and those areas where they don't. For instance, Nea Makri has seen -1 before but Lavrio hasn't (?).  I think we can draw a line kind of in the middle of Attica, from Rafina to Peiraeus. Coastal areas below that line don't see temperatures below 0. 

For Lavrio, we know since 2009 (weather station was installed on October 2008).
Since then it had 0,6C on March 2011, 0,5C on January 2017, 0,6C on February 2021 and 0,5C this January True, there is potential there.
Although at some point it must have fallen to negative values, it's "flirting" a lot with the zero.

Interestingly, Sounio fell even lower on February 2021, to 0,3C.

I don't think there's any place in the coastal Attica (let alone inland) where it's 100% guaranteed that the temperature will not fall below zero.
But there is a line (like you said) where the chances are becoming very slim for this to happen.
Manos will know more on this topic for sure, I just have the data from the N.O.A. stations in front of me but not that big of a knowledge.

[Victor G.]

1 minute ago, ego said:

Oh yes, with some exceptions, like Dikastika 

Well, if you want your place to become like Dikastika, there is the fan idea. Don't make me propose it twice!

[Than]

31 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

For Lavrio, we know since 2009 (weather station was installed on October 2008).
Since then it had 0,6C on March 2011, 0,5C on January 2017, 0,6C on February 2021 and 0,5C this January True, there is potential there.
Although at some point it must have fallen to negative values, it's "flirting" a lot with the zero.

Interestingly, Sounio fell even lower on February 2021, to 0,3C.

I don't think there's any place in the coastal Attica (let alone inland) where it's 100% guaranteed that the temperature will not fall below zero.
But there is a line (like you said) where the chances are becoming very slim for this to happen.
Manos will know more on this topic for sure, I just have the data from the N.O.A. stations in front of me but not that big of a knowledge.

Apparently Perama has never gone below 4C! I wonder how it compares to Kasos. Perhaps we don't have to travel that far after all to plant a cocos

Phoenikakias knows better but it seems that when temperatures do not go below 0 the range of species you can grow becomes a lot larger, for instance, Syagrus, Howeas and Archontophoenices. Of course depends on other factors too.

Edited March 31, 2022 by ego

[Than]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Welcome to bitter reality.  I was always wondering whether it is worth trying to cultivate more marginal palms in Attica.  Having in mind my past experience and the new pests, my answer is a big NO. That is to much! Were I young again, I would certainly not jump in to the hobby.

 

You sound like you've lost many specimens in the past but to my understanding, you've also had many successes?

[Victor G.]

23 minutes ago, ego said:

Apparently Perama has never gone below 4C! I wonder how it compares to Kasos. Perhaps we don't have to travel that far after all to plant a cocos

Phoenikakias knows better but it seems that when temperatures do not go below 0 the range of species you can grow becomes a lot larger, for instance, Syagrus, Howeas and Archontophoenices. Of course depends on other factors too.

Wait what? It was -0,5C last year and this year 0,4C!

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/perama/

[Than]

3 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Wait what? It was -0,5C last year and this year 0,4C!

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/perama/

Yea I was just checking that and I was about to write that apparently inforest is wrong. Unless the weather station is at an odd place.

[Victor G.]

6 minutes ago, ego said:

Yea I was just checking that and I was about to write that apparently inforest is wrong. Unless the weather station is at an odd place.

Oh right, I saw the inforest now. It's true they have it as 10b.
I don't know why, but must definitely be a mistake. Even a sheltered station wouldn't record such high temperature difference

[Than]

2 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Oh right, I saw the inforest now. It's true they have it as 10b.
I don't know why, but must definitely be a mistake. Even a sheltered station wouldn't record such high temperature difference

Don't worry, I found a detailed and accurate map of Greek hardiness zones. It will be an asset for all of us.

 

[Victor G.]

13 minutes ago, ego said:

Don't worry, I found a detailed and accurate map of Greek hardiness zones. It will be an asset for all of us.

 

Oh man, who took our islands?

[Phoenikakias]

51 minutes ago, ego said:

Don't worry, I found a detailed and accurate map of Greek hardiness zones. It will be an asset for all of us.

 

For heaven sake, Tripoli is zone 10 and Athens downtown zone 9 like Thessaloniki. Could not be more inaccurate. Thessaloniki has a climate that can not sustain on long term CIDP.  Manos will see red at the sight of this map lol. Like I said,  southern Attika is transitional between 9 and 10.

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, ego said:

You sound like you've lost many specimens in the past but to my understanding, you've also had many successes?

Nevertheless I always live with the feeling of temporality regarding many of my palms.

[southathens]

9 hours ago, Victor G. said:

By the way, Monemvasia displays an extremely mild climate. I've suspected it for one or two years now (seeing how Athens was down to 1C and Monemvasia managed to stay above 5C very often).
I finally did the math and it's one good winter short of becoming 11a! That's gotta be somewhere in the top 10 of Greece, right? @Manos33

Right Monemvasia seems to have the mildest lows in continental Greece.  Kastelorizo is basically the only area to rival Kasos but with much less years of data

[southathens]

8 hours ago, Victor G. said:

I looked at the N.O.A. stations and most of them weren't active until 2013 (give or take). If they have recorded, say 30-40 years of data, we would probably see much lower temperatures.

The all time record for downtown Athens is -6.5C in 1898 according to the historical WMO station. Piraeus from HNMS has a record low of -3.4C in 2004 for the period between 1955-2010. Elliniko HNMS record low for the period 1955-2022 is -4.2C in 2004 again.

Obviously if you go far enough you will see most if not the whole of South Europe going down to  negative values. Los Angeles is not exactly comparable at 34N latitude.

The inland Piraeus Davis station has a record of -1.8C in 2017 for the period 2009-2022. This is a very reliable private Davis station but bear in mind that this is an inland station. I have a feeling that the Port of Piraeus has not been below -1C the past 10-15 years.

http://pireas.meteoclub.gr/NOAA-reports.php?yr=2022

Edited April 1, 2022 by Manos33

[southathens]

4 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

  Manos will see red at the sight of this map lol. Like I said,  southern Attika is transitional between 9 and 10.

Hahaha. I was actually laughing when I saw the map. But I beg to differ. The past 20 years and especially the past decade we have seen a major shift in absolute minimums in South Attica.  With the exception of 2004 when we had record lows throughout most of Greece, the hard data coming in from South Athens suggest a solid 10a climate and locally 10b zones. 

Nea Smyrni for example is a 10b climate according to the NOA station data for the period 2012-2022. You see me stressing very often Nea Smyrni but keep an eye for this one. It is the first time we have met data for Nea Smyrni and it appears to be warmer consistently compared to any other area in coastal Attica when it comes to minimums. Absolute minimum is only -0.4C so we need to examine in more detail how Nea Smyrni will behave the next few years. My understanding after having studied the climate in the area is that indeed we are talking about the warmest place in Athens annually but also in terms of absolute minimums. Btw Faliro NOA station is right up there with Nea Smyrni.

Let me remind you that Nea Smyrni is also the warmest official met station annually the last decade in the whole of continental Europe with a mean annual T of around 20.4C

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Manos33

[southathens]

And here is Faliro NOA station 2013-2022. A 10b zone as well.

Mind you Faliro NOA station is smack bang on the coast. Whereas I believe @Phoenikakias your house in Faliro is not in the coast right? If you are in the Faliro coast then you are 10b zone the past decade. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Manos33

[southathens]

10 hours ago, ego said:

Let's make a palm-geeks' community in Kasos.  

Can you make me the PR guy please? 

I am recruiting locals in Kasos like crazy! It is a matter of time until we find a willing resident in Fri to try planting cocos in the ground

[southathens]

10 hours ago, Victor G. said:

An addition:

Thessaloniki is considered 8b/9a zone, while Madrid is 9a. At least according to Wikipedia
Thessaloniki is at sea level (and next to it also), while Madrid is at 820m elevation and literally in the centre of the iberian peninsula (so way inland).

Downtown Thessaloniki is a 9b zone the past almost 20 years!

The climate in the Airport has nothing and I mean nothing to do with the actual climate in Thessaloniki. The Mikra AP is extremely exposed to Vardaris winds while the city of Thessaloniki itself is much much more protected from Vardaris. 

Below the data of the most reliable private Davis met station in downtown Thessaloniki for the period between 2005-2022

https://www.meteothes.gr/noaa-yearly.php

Edited April 1, 2022 by Manos33

[Than]

5 hours ago, Manos33 said:

Can you make me the PR guy please? 

I am recruiting locals in Kasos like crazy! It is a matter of time until we find a willing resident in Fri to try planting cocos in the ground

Where are you recruiting them? How?