Which Palm would you recomend for a desert climate

[coolricksfromtijuana]

Hi guys, hope fully we'll be living definitely in Las Vegas for a few years now, if all things go well I'll be a new home owner.

So wife and I would like to resume our love for palms, we had several planted in our last home in Tijuana just few minutes south of the border from San Diego.

The problem we see here is the climate, here is very extreme and I have only seen very small variety of palms, I do not know what is my zone. would you guys care to shed some info on what to plant here? Thanks.

???

[Steve in Brookings]

Just a word of warning:  you'll see lots of palms in commercial settings in LV that are temperennials.  After the big freeze comes along they'll die and get replaced.  Recreating the tropical illusion is big business in LV, even if the climate doesn't entirely support it.  There are some other species that will get by in protected building overhangs and microclimates.  I would stay with true hardy desert palms:  Washingtonias, Braheas, Phoenix dactylifera, Butia capitata.  They are also the species that combine best with other southern Nevada landscaping standards such as Joshua Tree and hardy agaves.  The wind is a consideration as well as the heat and the cold.  Despite the challenges, Las Vegas gardeners seem to love palms.

[The Germinator]

Here is a list of Palms I have seen thriving in Las Vegas;

Brahea armata

Chamearops humilis

Phoenix Canariensis

Bizmarkia Nobilis

Butia capitata

Washingtonia robusta

Phoenix dactylifera

I would try just about any Phoenix palm, maybe the rupicola would not do as well.

[sonoranfans]

(coolricksfromtijuana @ Aug. 21 2007,00:51)

QUOTE

Hi guys, hope fully we'll be living definitely in Las Vegas for a few years now, if all things go well I'll be a new home owner.

So wife and I would like to resume our love for palms, we had several planted in our last home in Tijuana just few minutes south of the border from San Diego.

The problem we see here is the climate, here is very extreme and I have only seen very small variety of palms, I do not know what is my zone. would you guys care to shed some info on what to plant here? Thanks.

???

from one desert dweller to another here is a list that will survive the heat and cold:

brahea armata: a no brainer, practically bulletproof, only requirement is good drainage.

washingtonia filifera: a huge palm, only on big lots, it IS bulletproof.

phoenix dactylifera: both large phoenix do well, give it some room, watch the thorns(not near a walkway).

phoenix canaresis: see dactylifera

butia capitata:(keep it out of direct late day western summer sun in the desert, but otherwise it likes the sun)

sabal bermudana: great in the cold, similar to the butia on sun, but less so.

sabal domengenisis: same as bermudana

Sabal mexicana: dont have one but cultural requirements seem matched.

If you are new to the desert, you will need to study your drainage, perhaps ammend soil with sand, compost to get the best growth.  You want to develop large root systems that will help the palms remain full in the heat.  large root system and decent drainage also will allow you to water deeper.  Drip irrigation with timers will be necessary to grow the best specimens(full crowns) in the desert.   You should spend some time on the internet or email me a request and I will tell you how to water, place drippers etc,.  Here are some of mine.

[MattyB]

Rick, you've gotta get a copy of the latest So Cal journal.  It's dedicated to desert palms.  You'll benefit from it greatly.

[sonoranfans]

(coolricksfromtijuana @ Aug. 21 2007,00:51)

QUOTE

Hi guys, hope fully we'll be living definitely in Las Vegas for a few years now, if all things go well I'll be a new home owner.

So wife and I would like to resume our love for palms, we had several planted in our last home in Tijuana just few minutes south of the border from San Diego.

The problem we see here is the climate, here is very extreme and I have only seen very small variety of palms, I do not know what is my zone. would you guys care to shed some info on what to plant here? Thanks.

???

The jungle music website also has some nice info in an article titled "desert palms".  In my experience its quite accurate, and it covers many more species than I have including cold tolerance.  Realistically the nevada desert will get colder than most of the desert in southern california.  Las Vegas may be borderline(or too cold) for species like Bismarckia(26F).

[osideterry]

No one mentioned Syagrus romanzoffiana, yet there they are in sonoranfans yard. I know they are hardy to 20F. Though they are easier to grow in mediterranean-to-subtropical climates, I do see them growing in the almost desert areas of the inland empire.

If I were in Vegas I'd create a big mess of P. reclinata, and trim all the suckers every winter.

[sonoranfans]

(osideterry @ Aug. 21 2007,19:21)

QUOTE

No one mentioned Syagrus romanzoffiana, yet there they are in sonoranfans yard. I know they are hardy to 20F. Though they are easier to grow in mediterranean-to-subtropical climates, I do see them growing in the almost desert areas of the inland empire.

If I were in Vegas I'd create a big mess of P. reclinata, and trim all the suckers every winter.

Yeah Terry, the syagrus do quite well here with enough water(and alot of fertilizer).  Last winter(22F) I lost about half the fronds, they are mostly back already.  I suspect that vegas is colder in winter than either the socal or arizona desert, but I dont know how much.  Syagrus are good to 20F and will look nice if you water liberally as I do.  In the desert, I use water to make up for the low humidity, which syagrus do not like.  Many of my neighbors have poor looking syagrus because they use the same water schedule as other trees, its quite depressing seeing the poor things.  Mine get more frequent watering (on the irrigation timer) than my braheas, sabals, and bismarckias.  I plant roses under them and the plant lines are watering every 3 days in summer while trees are now set at 7 day intervals.  I wont plant water loving plants under my braheas or bismarckias as they dont like being continuously wet.  If you pay alot for your water you may want to avoid syagrus, but by planting plants under them along with plant drip lines, your watering can be more efficient as the palms/roses share the water.

[mppalms]

I agree with the comments about periodic freezes wiping out the palms in the landscape.  It can get really cold in Las Vegas some winters, at least according to the weather records.

It really depends on what you like.  I think some of the Butia could look nice.  You might want to try some larger specimens of the more common species to get started, but if you're planning to be there a while, you could also seek out some of the rare ones like Butia purpurascens (which I'm starting to try).  It supposedly is a relatively short grower with a thinner trunk.  Given that they are from inland central Brazil, I think these palms would love heat (more than I can provide) and might survive a good freeze given the hardiness of more common Butia.

Brahea species are great.   You could try armata or 'Super Silver' (again, this one would start off small and take years to have a nice position in the landscape) if you like the blue/silver look.

The "Silver Queen" (Syagrus litoralis or whatever it is being called now) is supposedly hardy to 15 deg. F.  I wonder whether that is true.  It might get you through most of the freezes there, though it, too, is likely to kick over at some point in the next 50 years.

Good luck with the move!

Jason

[macario]

Washingtonia Filifera is a must!

[elHoagie]

From NOAA the low during the record Jan 2007 cold was 23 F.  So, I would guess that anything that can survive low 20s F would make it long term in Vegas.  At least if your garden is within the urban heat island...

[alex_7b]

IMHO, I believe that water-loving palms should be avoided. Check the normal summer rainfall in LV. I can tell you from experience that Sabals want about 1/2 and inch of rain PER WEEK. This is based upon my own garden, which has Sabals for 8 years now. I suggest the same for Pindos. I have heard the same for Queens.

Washies, Braheas, Chamaerops and Phoenixes are good. Avoid planting tall palms up near the house because they look disproportionately large next to single-story srtuctures.

Take the time to plan your project and work WITH nature. It will be cheaper and more rewarding.

[sonoranfans]

(alex_7b @ Aug. 22 2007,14:42)

QUOTE

IMHO, I believe that water-loving palms should be avoided. Check the normal summer rainfall in LV. I can tell you from experience that Sabals want about 1/2 and inch of rain PER WEEK. This is based upon my own garden, which has Sabals for 8 years now. I suggest the same for Pindos. I have heard the same for Queens.

Washies, Braheas, Chamaerops and Phoenixes are good. Avoid planting tall palms up near the house because they look disproportionately large next to single-story srtuctures.

Take the time to plan your project and work WITH nature. It will be cheaper and more rewarding.

I can tell you that my sabals are very nice, thanks and so are my butias(see above pic in post).  Phil Bergman calls butia capitata " a great desert palm", in his desert palm section on the jungle music website.  The University of Arizona horticultural extension also rates palms according to water needs and drought tolerance, pindos(or butias) are recommended and syagrus are not(love humidity).  Syagrus are not suited well to the desert, but if planted in bunches they dont use as much water, and canopy trees that protect from the late day sun go a long way.  Here are 2 of my sabal blackburniana, they look pretty healthy to me, watered once a week by drip irrigation.

[sonoranfans]

(alex_7b @ Aug. 22 2007,14:42)

QUOTE

IMHO, I believe that water-loving palms should be avoided. Check the normal summer rainfall in LV. I can tell you from experience that Sabals want about 1/2 and inch of rain PER WEEK. This is based upon my own garden, which has Sabals for 8 years now. I suggest the same for Pindos. I have heard the same for Queens.

Washies, Braheas, Chamaerops and Phoenixes are good. Avoid planting tall palms up near the house because they look disproportionately large next to single-story srtuctures.

Take the time to plan your project and work WITH nature. It will be cheaper and more rewarding.

Its also true than many palms exist in nature under canopy or in bunches, not so much as "singles".  Soil types have a great influence on watering needs as do ambient temps, humidity.  Low drainage clay soils dont need as much water as high drainage sandy soil.  If we were to work with nature and use naturally occuring species, there would be few or no palms outside socal and florida.  Also washingtonia robust need water here as much as a butia, filifera  are different.

[alex_7b]

I quite disagree. I have had Sabals and while they are tolerant of dry conditions, their growth is markedly slower. As for Pindos, they' re faster growers than Sabals. However, the small one in the photo above looks sickly by southeast standards. It may also be the pH of the soil. Most plants prefer soil slightly acidic. I believe Brahea prefers it slightly alkaline and Chamaerops between neutral and alkaline. Correct me on soil types if you wish.

[sonoranfans]

(alex_7b @ Aug. 22 2007,15:41)

QUOTE

I quite disagree. I have had Sabals and while they are tolerant of dry conditions, their growth is markedly slower. As for Pindos, they' re faster growers than Sabals. However, the small one in the photo above looks sickly by southeast standards. It may also be the pH of the soil. Most plants prefer soil slightly acidic. I believe Brahea prefers it slightly alkaline and Chamaerops between neutral and alkaline. Correct me on soil types if you wish.

that "small sickly sabal"has grown 3' per year, is now 8' tall after being planted 2 years ago from a 2' 15 gallon specimen.  the bigger one is 11' feet from 3' 3 years ago.  The yellow pindo is an anomaly, my other 7 are green as in the previous pic(post 4).  You are, of course entitled to disagree -as anyone is- but I trust my sources(eg phil bergman) who grow and sell many palms.

[sonoranfans]

(alex_7b @ Aug. 22 2007,15:41)

QUOTE

I quite disagree. I have had Sabals and while they are tolerant of dry conditions, their growth is markedly slower. As for Pindos, they' re faster growers than Sabals. However, the small one in the photo above looks sickly by southeast standards. It may also be the pH of the soil. Most plants prefer soil slightly acidic. I believe Brahea prefers it slightly alkaline and Chamaerops between neutral and alkaline. Correct me on soil types if you wish.

on soil types, sulfur can be used to adjust soil pH, I think I would know that as a chemist.  Roses are grown in mass in AZ, many perfume companies and 100's of acres of them here west of phx.  Roses dont like basic pH either, and yet ...

[osideterry]

Is it possibl your yellow Butia is flat getting too much shade? I've seen that look with other sunloving palms (royal, beccariophoenix).

[sonoranfans]

(osideterry @ Aug. 22 2007,17:23)

QUOTE

Is it possibl your yellow Butia is flat getting too much shade? I've seen that look with other sunloving palms (royal, beccariophoenix).

It could be or it could be that its surrounded by the root systems of larger stronger palms and is just cramped.  Its also true that I didnt remediate the soil there(no sand added) and it does not like the extra water that it gets due to the roses(and plant drippers) nearby.  Two of the roses are now dead(my wife pruned them in early august ... she didnt like the way they looked, that will kill any rose in AZ, pruning in the hot season).  My experience is that butias like drainage here and they dont like to be wet all the time like queens.  I think I crouded things a bit much when I started out, but experiements are often necessary to find the best way.  That butia does get 6hrs a day of direct sun, from sunrise to around 1pm.  I had one other butia that was truly in excessive shade(almost no direct sun), the result was extreme elongation of fronds until it just died in a cold spell a few years back.  It didnt turn yellow at all.  I may dig that butia up this fall once it cools off, and put it somewhere away from the plant drippers as I fear root rot or nematodes may be in its future.  Perhaps I should have used sand on that one.  If I do dig it up, I will add sand to the hole.

My experience is that butias and sabals dont like to be kept wet along with braheas and bismarckias.  In the future if I do have plant drippers around a butia, I will elevate it extra so it will not get the extra water.  It appears that only my queens like to be near the roses.  they get and like the extra water and fertilizer, pigs that they are.  But I love all my palms, including the queens which sway so nicely in the wind.  I just cant wait for my puerto rican royals to come out of the greenhouse, I'm itching to plant them in the ground.

[alex_7b]

My reference to the yellowing palm was for the Pindo. I still believe that the LESS maintenance and cost, the better. In z9a, there should be enough reasonable choices to have beautiful landscaping without $100 monthly water bills.

[alex_7b]

You know, I read once about the Gardens at Babylon. Supposedly, there was an intricate method of pumps and water recycling so as to reuse any water that flowed away from the plants' roots.

http://ce.eng.usf.edu/pharos/wonders/gardens.html

[coolricksfromtijuana]

Thanks to all the people that has responded to this tread, I didn't know tha Queen palms could handle the hot sun neither my fravorite Bismarkia!!! for sure that I'll be getting one!!!!! :laugh:    

Nice looking back yard you have there sonoranfans!!

[steve 9atx]

cooltricks

I understand that in Vegas, like many parts of Nevada, there are elevated levels of Boron in the soil.  I would say you'd need to send a soil sample to one of the state universities for a test.  If you have this condition, no amount of water will help.  Very few plants and no palms that I know of are adapted for this soil condition.  Obviously, if this is the case at your house, you will need to ammend the soil to minimize the concentration of B.

Try Sabal uresana, by the way.  It's stunna.

Steve

[richtrav]

It can get a lot colder than last winter up there, much worse than Phoenix or even Tucson. Something to keep in mind when you're planning for what's temporary and what's permanent

[alex_7b]

On TWC site, they list the record low temperature in LV as 8º, set in 1963. My guess is that the area is USDA z8b. You will need to gather some statistical information regarding temperatures.

How often < 20º ?

How often < 15º ?

How often < 10º ?

Here in Atlanta, I must plan for a minimum of 10º, although I don't see it every year.

[sonoranfans]

(coolricksfromtijuana @ Aug. 22 2007,22:33)

QUOTE

Thanks to all the people that has responded to this tread, I didn't know tha Queen palms could handle the hot sun neither my fravorite Bismarkia!!! for sure that I'll be getting one!!!!! :laugh:    

Nice looking back yard you have there sonoranfans!!

coolricks, its looks like you can get down to the low teens there in las vegas.  In phoenix our 22 degrees was a low since 1979.  If you can get much below 20F the queens will die.  Sabal uresana is a nice palm, but I think its only good to the upper teens.  I have a small one, surely it is a desert tree as its called the sonoran palmetto as in the "sonoran desert"(where I live).  I would recommend that you grow an overhead canopy to the west to prevent the scortching dessication by the western sun in summer(west by northwest direction).  Many in phoenix grow more sensitive palms using overhead canopy or the shield of the house.  I have trachys, livistonia chinesis that do well with the proper protection.  In reality many jungle plants would die in the amazonian rain forrest without the overhead canopy.  Also, by shielding your palms from the western sun using a desert tree you will reduce water demands of the palm in an evapotranspiration sense.  Also, as I said, planting in groups to get synergy/protection from drying winds.  I might stay away from Bismarckias if you can get below 20 it'll kill them for sure.  If you must try, think about how you might create microclimates in your yard.  For instance, my side yard to the east has house heater vents and my pool heater in that part of the yard.   Combined with some thick shrubs/trees on the perimeter and the block fencing that we have separating lots and my neighbors overhead canopy it is about 4-5F warmer in the winter cold according to my temp sensors.  Intensive agriculture has been practiced for centuries, you can use some of the principles to your advantage to grow borderline palms.  Wind breaks, heat sources, warm spots, overhead and western canopy, and sand plus vermiculite addition to the soil can make for a better environment for borderline palms in the heat and cold.  Growing ANY non native tree(everything but mesquite or paolo verde!!) in the desert requires that we lean on the experience of others here, the experience of gardeners outside the desert is often of limited utility here.  Visit jungle music web site and read about "desert palms".  Phil Bergman has supplied some wisdom there.

By the way, thanks for the complement on the yard.  It has just gone through the toughest time of the year after a large dieoff in the canopy from the 28 year low last winter, its a bit parched.  As the fall season hits and the temps drop, everyones yard here just recoups and glows with new growth and color.  All of my broadleaf trees look tired as well, but I know they will perk right up with the change of season.  the great thing about my palms is that they usually look fantastic in the winter.  Here is a winter pic of my yard before the freeze of '07.  The ficus trees all died in the freeze(28 year low) leaving my yard with much less protection from the western sun.  This year, things were a little parched, but I planted some new more cold tolerant shade trees that will, in time, give the necessary western sun protection.  Planting new palms in the desert can be a little tricky as they are most vulnerable in the first summer to dessication, even the more heat tolerant species(except  washintonia filifera).  Even the phoenix species can take a burn, thats why landscapers "tie them up" the first year.  I use shade cloth the first year or two on small ones if they see 6+ hours of direct sun or especially late day western sun in summer.   I also use sulfur pellets 2x a year to gradually change the soil pH to more neutral(tales 5-7 years).  The good thing is its permanent, just mix with the top layer of soil spring and fall 2 handfulls per palm 2' and out a little from the tree.  It cant burn roots as microbes are needed to break it down (in time release fashion) to acid.  Happy desert palm gardening!

[sonoranfans]

Coolricks, your record lows before vegas was built up will most likely not be repeated.  All that concrete just creates a passive solar heat island effect.  In Phx our typical winter lows have risen 4-5F over the last 50 years due to this effect.  Most years my palms dont even see below 30F.  Even this past year, some palm friends closer to the city( I am on the edge) has 4-5 degrees warmer temps than I did, and 20 miles to the south in the open desert, temps were 3-4F lower than the 22F I saw.  Out lack of humidity here and all the concrete heat effects create pretty big microclimate differences just 10 miles away.

[NBTX11]

(alex_7b @ Aug. 23 2007,07:35)

QUOTE

On TWC site, they list the record low temperature in LV as 8º, set in 1963. My guess is that the area is USDA z8b. You will need to gather some statistical information regarding temperatures.

How often < 20º ?

How often < 15º ?

How often < 10º ?

Here in Atlanta, I must plan for a minimum of 10º, although I don't see it every year.

Both the 1990 USDA and 2006 Arbor Day maps show Las Vegas as a solid zone 9a.  But, they have had many days on record in the teens with a low of 11F as recently as 1990 and of course the 8F in 1963.  If it happened once, it could happen again.

[DoomsDave]

Rick:

As the charts up above show, it can get cold in the Land of hte Lost Wages.

Down to 11F.

Not often, but . . .

I suggest you stick to the very hardiest species and buy small ones.  That way if a freeze comes, you won't be out much money-wise.

Ed Wynne can afford big plants . . . . most of us can't.

All of that said, keep us apprized of what happens.  Casino gardens notwithstanding, palms are marginal up there.

best

dave

[alex_7b]

Hey Sonorfans; to be fair, I must admit that the pool area DOES look spectacular and you deserve credit for more dedication than I would probably show.

Regarding the winter temps, The USDA maps tend to be short-term averages and it's better to grab about 50 years. Here's the 1960 map:

http://s32.photobucket.com/albums....960.jpg

[sonoranfans]

(alex_7b @ Aug. 23 2007,17:56)

QUOTE

Hey Sonorfans; to be fair, I must admit that the pool area DOES look spectacular and you deserve credit for more dedication than I would probably show.

Regarding the winter temps, The USDA maps tend to be short-term averages and it's better to grab about 50 years. Here's the 1960 map:

http://s32.photobucket.com/albums....960.jpg

Thanks alex, I am a bit of a fanatic about my palms.  To grow even many broadleaf trees you have to be.  The heat island effect here is truly amazing, just comparing the lows to the outlying desert its often 8-10 degrees F difference.  The building is exploding all around me, monster malls(2) less than a mile away are going up and houses are going up everywhere now.  WHen I started there was nothing to my west, just farm fields.  Hopefully I can get the benefit of the guys closer in who kept royals through this past winter.  In the last 15 years alone, PHX has grown incredibly, 5 miles to the west of me was all farms, now its a city of 200,000 people with concrete and asphalt and many homes with tiny lots(as small as 1/8 acre).  My ficus nitida all died this past winter, but many of my friends just 8 miles closer to the center of the heat island had theirs ALL live and didnt even have major damage to them.  

Vegas has had similar growth, but perhaps on a smaller scale.  I dont know that the nightime lows are going to be what they were 20 years ago let alone 50 years ago.  On average, they are up 5F in january compared with 50 years ago!

Rikki, you should assume you will see low teens.  this means that you should investigate cold tolerance of palms.  Even the phoenix species will take it hard and may die.  Outlying area phoenix dactylifera looked terrible in the areas that saw 18F this past winter, I though they would die.

sabal bermudana 10F

trachycarpus(plant in shade) 10F

Nanhorrops ritchiania  (? some say pretty low, 10F once est)

Washingtonia Filifera 10F(robustas will die below 16F)

sabal uresana(some say 10F)

butia capitata about 14F

Brahea armata, should be very adaptable to heat, dry and cold, 10F

these are a few, perhaps more internet research will yield more.

Remember that its how cold the palm gets, not how low the temp is.  This means that how long it is low temperature really matters, and that wind velocity(which you can grow wind breaks to limit) really matters.  In the desert, temps usually dont stay low long as the rising sun really heats things up, especially in the developed areas.  Before this last winter I never saw a freeze that lasted more than 2-3 hours in 9 years and had virtually no damage.  You may have a few experiments to conduct.  I would listen to dave and not spend too much on what you grow that is not really robust.  And get a few canopy trees and windblocks in the ground asap, they hold the heat in overnight once they grow up a little.

[NBTX11]

I know for a 100% fact Washingtonia Filifera, Washy Hybrids, Phoenix Canariensis, Sabal Mexicana and Palmetto, among others, can take below 10F.  Why, because it got down to that in 1989 in South Central Texas, and those palms are standing strong today and are everywhere in the San Antonio area.  I would also say that an occasional Robusta can take lower than 16F, because some survived the 89 freeze (not many, but some did).   I wasn't here in 89, but there are obviously many alive today that are much older than that. I could post pics of thousands of the above that made it thru the 89 freeze.

[Gaston in Argentina]

Trithrinax campestris for sure.-  Will grow well one time established, also in the desert with no artificial watering.- Here´s some pics showing them in habitat.-

Cheers. Gaston,Ar

[iwan]

(Gaston in Argentina @ Aug. 24 2007,03:10)

QUOTE

Here´s some pics showing them in habitat.-

Great shot Gaston!

[Gaston in Argentina]

Thanks Robert, it´s a tipical landscape of our wild west (Cordoba province) in winter that is our dry season.- Tipical colour -

For me, campestris with cleanered fired burn trunks look a lot better then with the old leaves peticoat, but is just a personal viewpoint, unfortunately disagreed by most buyers of the average market for this specie.-

Cheers. Gaston