Impossible palms in Florida

[Justin31703]

I am interested in creating a list of palms that simply will not grow in Florida. There have been other posts where people would include palms such as Queens and Washingtonias because of them being invasive or ugly. For this thread, use just the palms that are completely incompatible in Florida. 
 

here are some to begin with 

1. Jubaea chilensis

2. Brahea (maybe a few exceptions)

3. Trachycarpus (except in pots in protected areas??)

4. Jubaeopsis

5. Parajubaea

6. Iriartea deltoidea 

7. Ceroxylon 

[JLM]

  On 10/31/2021 at 2:49 AM, Justin31703 said:

3. Trachycarpus (except in pots in protected areas??)

Expand  

These can grow really well in NW FL, ive seen several in my area with at least 10 ft of trunk, some more. Most of the trunks have been cleaned to some extent. They actually look really nice.

Edited October 31, 2021 by JLM

[kinzyjr]

I have seen Trachycarpus that look decent here, but they get nicer once you get above the 29th parallel for sure.  I haven't heard of many Dypsis decipiens doing well here.  Anyone know of any?

[Kailua_Krish]

I have a Dypsis decipiens and a Parajubaea sunkha both doing fine in Ocala for 10+ years. Also multiple species of Travhycarpus and a single Brahea clara

[D Palm]

There are many Trachycarpus In N. Florida along I-10. I have seen them grow as far north as Calhoun, GA.

[Justin31703]

What about Trachycarpus in South Florida?

[D Palm]

I think I have spotted what I thought may be Jubea Chilensis in Weston, FL about a half mile from I-75. I thought it was a hybridized CIDP for the longest time and may be? 

[Justin31703]

Yeah, those are Canary Island Date Palms (probably hybridized). Still great looking though. 

[kinzyjr]

There are a handful of Jubaea in Florida.  There is rumored to be a trunking one SW of here somewhere between Sarasota and Fort Myers.  @Scott W has one that is doing well up in Jax. 

There is some debate about whether this palm in Winter Park is a pure Jubaea:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/30034-mature-jubaea-chilensis-in-orlandoflorida/

[D Palm]

Also, I think these are Brahea Armata. I only see them on the interstate/Turnpike ramps, usually along w/ Bismarck’s but the fronds are way less costapalmate than a Bizzy.  This is a photo in West Palm Beach, FL. I drive a lot for work, traffic is too crazy to take a pic so I just memorize road then use maps to take a screenshot.

[D Palm]

  On 10/31/2021 at 3:07 AM, kinzyjr said:

I have seen Trachycarpus that look decent here, but they get nicer once you get above the 29th parallel for sure.  I haven't heard of many Dypsis decipiens doing well here.  Anyone know of any?

Expand  

In my travels around the sunshine state I have never spotted one. Sure would love to give it the old college try though if I could get ahold of one!!

[kinzyjr]

  On 10/31/2021 at 3:41 AM, D Palm said:

Also, I think these are Brahea Armata.

Expand  

I might be wrong, but I think these are Blue Latan Palms (Latania loddigesii): https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Latania_loddigesii

There are a few Brahea armata out there though.  There is one at Leu Gardens in Orlando and one at Lake Wire in Lakeland. 

There is also one near the raceway in Daytona: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/53848-an-old-brahea-in-daytona-beach-florida/&tab=comments#comment-811476

I'm sure there are more since I have seen a trunking specimen in Cape Coral, but can't recall all of the different locales I've seen them.

[kinzyjr]

  On 10/31/2021 at 3:18 AM, Justin31703 said:

What about Trachycarpus in South Florida?

Expand  

Haven't seen too many doing well there.  Might as well add Juania australis to the list though.  No shot anywhere in the state.  Rhopalostylis are probably on the list as well.

[Justin31703]

How about Phoenix theophrastii any mature ones in Fl? They seem to come from very arid climates. 

[kinzyjr]

  On 10/31/2021 at 4:03 AM, Justin31703 said:

How about Phoenix theophrastii any mature ones in Fl? They seem to come from very arid climates. 

Expand  

Yes, probably the nicest one I have ever seen (with a very blue hue) is at Kopsick Palm Arboretum in St. Petersburg. 

@redbeard917 posted a nice photo of it on this thread: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/45283-phoenix-theophrasti/ and I recently posted this photo of it in the Affiliates section for the CFPACS fall meeting.

I have a few here, but they are babies and don't have the blue hue that the one above does.

[Justin31703]

That looks great!

[KDubU]

  On 10/31/2021 at 4:11 AM, kinzyjr said:

Yes, probably the nicest one I have ever seen (with a very blue hue) is at Kopsick Palm Arboretum in St. Petersburg. 

@redbeard917 posted a nice photo of it on this thread: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/45283-phoenix-theophrasti/ and I recently posted this photo of it in the Affiliates section for the CFPACS fall meeting.

I have a few here, but they are babies and don't have the blue hue that the one above does.

Expand  

Wow! That is a beauty. 

[Kaname-kun]

Not from personal experience, but I've been told these won't grow in Florida:

1. Marojejya darianii

2. Dypis marojejyi

3. Dictyocarium lamarckianum

[bubba]

Great topic. Primarily what Kinsey and Kailua Krish said.

 Eric’s Jubaea chilinsis in Winter Park is the most convincing I have seen. Ken Johnson has a huge Brahea in Redlands area. Eric at Leu is growing Jubeaopsis caffra but Ed Bown in Jacksonville has a monster that is nearly 40 years old grown from seed. I also remember a picture of a large one in Kopsick next to a Coconut that apparently has passed.

Trachycarpus was grown to full maturity at Fairchild but no longer exists. Atlantis Rising is growing Trachycarpus next to Red Sealing Wax palms in the Keys.

 I will post an unhappy Ceroxylon growing in the northern Keys…

[bubba]

[Merlyn]

  On 10/31/2021 at 3:46 AM, D Palm said:

In my travels around the sunshine state I have never spotted one. Sure would love to give it the old college try though if I could get ahold of one!!

Expand  

I am pretty sure the DOT planted a row of 20+ foot tall Trachycarpus along the new exit from I4 West onto 434.  You can see them from Markham Woods looking East towards the entrance ramp.  They are blocked by DOT fences, so I can't get up close to verify.  But there were 20ish of them to begin with, and all but 2 or 3 have now died.  It seems unlikely that they are Chamaerops.

[Stelios]

Lepidorrhachis mooreana, Hedyscepe canterburyana and maybe Howea belmoreana (Lord Howe islands palms)

[kinzyjr]

  On 10/31/2021 at 5:57 PM, Stelios said:

maybe Howea belmoreana (Lord Howe islands palms)

Expand  

There are a few Howea belmoreana around: 

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/62891-post-florida-howea-belmoreana/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N0igBGn5Gg

 

[Justin31703]

Would y’all say Trithrinax campestris grows well in South Florida? 

[Xerarch]

My Florida no-go list would also include Juania australis, Rhopalostylis, and I was going to add Ceroxlylon were it not for the beautiful specimen featured above 

[Palmarum]

  On 10/31/2021 at 2:49 AM, Justin31703 said:

I am interested in creating a list of palms that simply will not grow in Florida. There have been other posts where people would include palms such as Queens and Washingtonias because of them being invasive or ugly. For this thread, use just the palms that are completely incompatible in Florida. ...

Expand  

Would have to be more specific to which region of Florida and the type of growth, in ground, container, modified environment, etc.

The state has many regions, areas, micro-climates that grow species that the others can not. Central Florida is very different than South Florida, whereas S. Florida is different than the Florida Keys, coastal areas vs. inland environs and so forth. There is also the definition of 'not grow', like not at all or not to a seedling, not to a mature plant, not to a 3-gallon size, etc.

Mentioning Queens and Washingtonia's is more under the heading of 'should not grow' vs. the 'will not grow' category. Societies and groups here have played with lists like this before in the past and they always end up being subjective to the time. There is always that desire to have that ironclad species-based, black and white, "yes and no" list that people can go by, but info changes constantly. There is still so much we don't know about certain species. One discovered growing condition or micro fertilizer element, and a "no" species becomes a "yes" one. The Palm world is so dynamic that collectors are always going to try and try again with a species, as the ninth try might yield data the eighth attempt did not.

I make lists and compendiums of species for fun. My lists are based on species that 'have grown' to some extent or 'could grow' if more time and research are put into them. They change all the time.

Ryan

[Xenon]

I would guess some of the cloud forest Andean stuff like Dictyocaryum, some Geonoma spp, etc would have a hard time. Maybe some of the high elevation stuff from New Guinea too 

[Scott W]

Yeah, my Jubaea has been in the ground now for 5 years, prior to that it stayed potted for it's first 12 years if life.  (Though it was probably very under potted).  Also have two Trachycarpus fortunei growing in the ground as well, one with three to four feet of trunk.  

[PalmatierMeg]

Off the top of my head:
 

Lepidorrhachis

Hedyscepe

Dictyocaryum

Rhopalostylis spp

Ceroxylon spp

Wettinia

Chamaedorea: all cloud forest species, including Cham tuerckheiumii Guatemala

Socratea

Dypsis baronii, decipiens, ambositrae and almost all very large spp

Geonoma spp

Jubaea

Parajubaea

Laccospadix

Welfia

Iriartea

Juania

 

 

 

[Justin31703]

  On 10/31/2021 at 9:04 PM, Palmarum said:

Would have to be more specific to which region of Florida and the type of growth, in ground, container, modified environment, etc.

The state has many regions, areas, micro-climates that grow species that the others can not. Central Florida is very different than South Florida, whereas S. Florida is different than the Florida Keys, coastal areas vs. inland environs and so forth. There is also the definition of 'not grow', like not at all or not to a seedling, not to a mature plant, not to a 3-gallon size, etc.

Mentioning Queens and Washingtonia's is more under the heading of 'should not grow' vs. the 'will not grow' category. Societies and groups here have played with lists like this before in the past and they always end up being subjective to the time. There is always that desire to have that ironclad species-based, black and white, "yes and no" list that people can go by, but info changes constantly. There is still so much we don't know about certain species. One discovered growing condition or micro fertilizer element, and a "no" species becomes a "yes" one. The Palm world is so dynamic that collectors are always going to try and try again with a species, as the ninth try might yield data the eighth attempt did not.

I make lists and compendiums of species for fun. My lists are based on species that 'have grown' to some extent or 'could grow' if more time and research are put into them. They change all the time.

Ryan

Expand  

These are all great points. I was thinking more South Florida for the location and growing into a mature plant in the ground or in a pot. Either one. 

[D Palm]

  On 10/31/2021 at 2:52 PM, Merlyn said:

I am pretty sure the DOT planted a row of 20+ foot tall along the new exit from I4 West onto 434.  You can see them from Markham Woods looking East towards the entrance ramp.  They are blocked by DOT fences, so I can't get up close to verify.  But there were 20ish of them to begin with, and all but 2 or 3 have now died.  It seems unlikely that they are Chamaerops.

Expand  

I meant Dypsis Decipiens. I have seen plenty of Trachys along I-10 and north. Can’t recall seeing any Orlando and south.

Edited November 1, 2021 by D Palm

[waykoolplantz]

pretty sure i have a D Decepiens in the ground.

at dinner Saturday with Cindy Adair and Dr Balasky we were discussing Madagascar palms and Lemurophoenix came up as "it may not die right away but it will die" in S Florida

[Tyrone]

Oraniopsis. Nobody’s mentioned that one yet. 

[hbernstein]

Is there an Oraniopsis at Leu?

[mnorell]

As @bubbanoted, there are Trachycarpus even in the Keys (though I haven't seen that specimen, nor any others that I remember). I have certainly seen them in South Florida, I remember seeing a few over the years in the greater Miami area...also Butia, they both looked fairly good, actually.

And @kinzyjryou are right, those are definitely Latania that @D Palm pictured above. IMHO one of the best palms for SoFla and the Keys. One in my neighborhood faced into the worst of Irma, took 160+mph winds, 6-7 ft of water with some wave activity, buildings torn apart around it, and looked like it took a walk in the park. Didn't lose one leaf and just kept cranking, to this day.

I grew Irartea deltoidea at my garden on Big Pine Key for several years without issue. It was in dry shade (too dry...hence it grew slowly) and went below 50 once (the only time the Lower Keys did so since the record-tying 41F in 2010...it saw 48F for four hours, as did my Cyrtostachys renda, both no prob). The problem was not cold but rather Irma, and the wind and day-long drowning under the ocean, plus physical damage from the coconuts and other plant material above it, destroyed it. I don't know if Irartea has been tested in the Miami-Palm Beach corridor, but I bet it would love it on some of the barrier islands, which are so much wetter than the Keys, if it could be protected from occasional hurricane inundation. I still don't know if the salt was the cause of its demise, as I think it was primarily physical damage that killed it.

I agree with others above that not much can't be grown somewhere in Florida save the cool-temperate species from NZ/Lord Howe and the high Andes, which would certainly have a tough grow. But people claim to grow Howea successfully in shade in parts of SoFla.

[Palmarum]

  On 11/1/2021 at 1:46 PM, Tyrone said:

Oraniopsis. Nobody’s mentioned that one yet. 

Expand  

Oraniopsis does grow here, to a point. There are a few examples in the ground and more in containers, but they are Extremely slow... like ultra slow that specimen size is measured in decades. I grew one in a 7-gallon pot for many years, potting it up again and again in the same pot. Most specimens look "okay" but just sit and linger in a shady spot. They are overshadowed by everything around them to the point where they are often ignored on garden tours. A lot of collectors put up with the slowness just so they have can the genus in their collection. A few owners go to the extra level by trying to recreate a swampy, marshy environment for them and they are happy, but they will still... more than likely, grow so slow.

This is one monotypic genus that comes under the heading of weird and a 'one-off' when found at sales. It has a few peculiarities about it's biology that makes it a neat conversation piece. It will be in that grey area between those species that do not grow much at all and those that thrive to maturity.

I think each collector, enthusiast has to make their own definition of what is impossible to grow, or what is worth growing at what scale of performance. One collector's impossible is another's challenge.

Ryan

[Merlyn]

  On 11/1/2021 at 7:17 PM, Palmarum said:

I think each collector, enthusiast has to make their own definition of what is impossible to grow, or what is worth growing at what scale of performance. One collector's impossible is another's challenge.

Expand  

That's true, some of the palms I saw at Leu Gardens last week looked great...and some were just surviving.   There's a Brahea Armata there that grows but has continual fungal problems even in a dry spot with full sun.  I have a couple of Brahea Nitida that are in the ground and doing ok so far.  I also bought two Brahea Clara seedlings from TCHP a couple of years ago.  One died of fungal rot, and the other only holds 2-3 good leaves and gets mold spots easily.  It appears a lot of Brahea are like that in Florida...hard to keep them alive and they look crappy if they survive!  So while many Brahea may not be "impossible," for 99% of people it's probably not worth it.

[Eric in Orlando]

Here is my experiences at Leu Gardens (central FL zone 9b/10a)

Brahea- we have several growing well at Leu. Brahea brandegeei is probably the best for here. There are also a couple growing at Disney's Animal Kingdom. There are a couple tall B. armata at Fairchild out in the lowlands.

Ceroxylon- I have tried several species and only C. amazonicum have grown through summer. But they eventually succumb. There is one C. amazonicum still alive, very slow.

Dypsis decipiens- this one is tricky, got to find the right spot for it but it is still slow. Needs well drained soil but evenly moist and with light afternoon shade. All other Dypsis have grown well so far. Some of the smaller rainforest understory types are cold sensitive and get killed out below 30f.

Geonoma- G. schottiana grows great here, just planted some G. bondariana.

Hedyscepe- I had one growing well, very slow. It got buried under tree debris from Hurricane Irma and I have never gotten another to replace and try again.

Howea- both species grow fine here, just needs shade and evenly moist soil. H. belmoreana is a lot slower than H. forsteriana.

Iriartea- I have never planted one out or would try. But years ago I had an Iriartea and a Socratea in pots, 3 gal about 2ft tall. I would bring them inside on nights below about 48F. One night I forgot and they both died around 40F.

Jubaea- There used to be a specimen here with about 6ft of clear trunk,. It had been grown from seed collected by plant explorer Mulford Foster and moved from his local garden to Leu in the mid 80s. He probably collected the seed in Chile. It had a big gouge in the trunk and finally died maybe 15 years ago. I have tried several since then with no luck. The only other one I have seen is that big one in Winter Park. The owner told me it was brought in from CA by the previous owner.

Jubaeopsis- We have 3 growing at Leu fine.

Lemurophoenix- 2 are growing well here so far. One gets partial shade and is growing in well drained soil but with irrigation. There other in partial shade but heavier, wet soil.

Livistona carinensis- no luck growing one here even in the Arid Garden where there is no irrigation.

Medemia- I have tried a couple dozen and can only get it to grow in the Arid Garden where there is no irrigation. But even then one that had grown well for years rotted out a couple years ago.

Oraniopsis- grows fine here but is super super slow. Needs shade and moist or wet soil. The one growing the best is in deeper shade and heavy wet/flooded soil.

Parajubaea- I have tried them all and only had P. sunkha survive for a few years but eventually died.

Rhopalostylis- None survive except for R. baueri var. cheesemanii. It is growing in bright shade with good irrigation.

Trachycarpus- They will grow here but usually only for a short period of time as they eventually get root nematodes and die. Its best to grow them on heavier soil in part shade or filtered light. I have tried all the species.

 

[Kailua_Krish]

  On 11/3/2021 at 12:54 PM, Eric in Orlando said:

Here is my experiences at Leu Gardens (central FL zone 9b/10a)

Brahea- we have several growing well at Leu. Brahea brandegeei is probably the best for here. There are also a couple growing at Disney's Animal Kingdom. There are a couple tall B. armata at Fairchild out in the lowlands.

Ceroxylon- I have tried several species and only C. amazonicum have grown through summer. But they eventually succumb. There is one C. amazonicum still alive, very slow.

Dypsis decipiens- this one is tricky, got to find the right spot for it but it is still slow. Needs well drained soil but evenly moist and with light afternoon shade. All other Dypsis have grown well so far. Some of the smaller rainforest understory types are cold sensitive and get killed out below 30f.

Geonoma- G. schottiana grows great here, just planted some G. bondariana.

Hedyscepe- I had one growing well, very slow. It got buried under tree debris from Hurricane Irma and I have never gotten another to replace and try again.

Howea- both species grow fine here, just needs shade and evenly moist soil. H. belmoreana is a lot slower than H. forsteriana.

Iriartea- I have never planted one out or would try. But years ago I had an Iriartea and a Socratea in pots, 3 gal about 2ft tall. I would bring them inside on nights below about 48F. One night I forgot and they both died around 40F.

Jubaea- There used to be a specimen here with about 6ft of clear trunk,. It had been grown from seed collected by plant explorer Mulford Foster and moved from his local garden to Leu in the mid 80s. He probably collected the seed in Chile. It had a big gouge in the trunk and finally died maybe 15 years ago. I have tried several since then with no luck. The only other one I have seen is that big one in Winter Park. The owner told me it was brought in from CA by the previous owner.

Jubaeopsis- We have 3 growing at Leu fine.

Lemurophoenix- 2 are growing well here so far. One gets partial shade and is growing in well drained soil but with irrigation. There other in partial shade but heavier, wet soil.

Livistona carinensis- no luck growing one here even in the Arid Garden where there is no irrigation.

Medemia- I have tried a couple dozen and can only get it to grow in the Arid Garden where there is no irrigation. But even then one that had grown well for years rotted out a couple years ago.

Oraniopsis- grows fine here but is super super slow. Needs shade and moist or wet soil. The one growing the best is in deeper shade and heavy wet/flooded soil.

Parajubaea- I have tried them all and only had P. sunkha survive for a few years but eventually died.

Rhopalostylis- None survive except for R. baueri var. cheesemanii. It is growing in bright shade with good irrigation.

Trachycarpus- They will grow here but usually only for a short period of time as they eventually get root nematodes and die. Its best to grow them on heavier soil in part shade or filtered light. I have tried all the species.

 

Expand  

I think the Parajubaea need slightly cooler nights. Ive noticed mine in Ocala only really grows in late fall and spring when it cools down in North Central FL. Almost no growth during the summer months when the nights are warm.

[Justin31703]

  On 11/3/2021 at 12:54 PM, Eric in Orlando said:

Here is my experiences at Leu Gardens (central FL zone 9b/10a)

Brahea- we have several growing well at Leu. Brahea brandegeei is probably the best for here. There are also a couple growing at Disney's Animal Kingdom. There are a couple tall B. armata at Fairchild out in the lowlands.

Ceroxylon- I have tried several species and only C. amazonicum have grown through summer. But they eventually succumb. There is one C. amazonicum still alive, very slow.

Dypsis decipiens- this one is tricky, got to find the right spot for it but it is still slow. Needs well drained soil but evenly moist and with light afternoon shade. All other Dypsis have grown well so far. Some of the smaller rainforest understory types are cold sensitive and get killed out below 30f.

Geonoma- G. schottiana grows great here, just planted some G. bondariana.

Hedyscepe- I had one growing well, very slow. It got buried under tree debris from Hurricane Irma and I have never gotten another to replace and try again.

Howea- both species grow fine here, just needs shade and evenly moist soil. H. belmoreana is a lot slower than H. forsteriana.

Iriartea- I have never planted one out or would try. But years ago I had an Iriartea and a Socratea in pots, 3 gal about 2ft tall. I would bring them inside on nights below about 48F. One night I forgot and they both died around 40F.

Jubaea- There used to be a specimen here with about 6ft of clear trunk,. It had been grown from seed collected by plant explorer Mulford Foster and moved from his local garden to Leu in the mid 80s. He probably collected the seed in Chile. It had a big gouge in the trunk and finally died maybe 15 years ago. I have tried several since then with no luck. The only other one I have seen is that big one in Winter Park. The owner told me it was brought in from CA by the previous owner.

Jubaeopsis- We have 3 growing at Leu fine.

Lemurophoenix- 2 are growing well here so far. One gets partial shade and is growing in well drained soil but with irrigation. There other in partial shade but heavier, wet soil.

Livistona carinensis- no luck growing one here even in the Arid Garden where there is no irrigation.

Medemia- I have tried a couple dozen and can only get it to grow in the Arid Garden where there is no irrigation. But even then one that had grown well for years rotted out a couple years ago.

Oraniopsis- grows fine here but is super super slow. Needs shade and moist or wet soil. The one growing the best is in deeper shade and heavy wet/flooded soil.

Parajubaea- I have tried them all and only had P. sunkha survive for a few years but eventually died.

Rhopalostylis- None survive except for R. baueri var. cheesemanii. It is growing in bright shade with good irrigation.

Trachycarpus- They will grow here but usually only for a short period of time as they eventually get root nematodes and die. Its best to grow them on heavier soil in part shade or filtered light. I have tried all the species.

 

Expand  

Was the Jubaea in Winter Park confirmed to be pure or is it a cross with butia?