The large root mount of one of my "areca"s (Dypsis lutescents?)

[miamicuse]

I have eight clusters of this palm along a 6 feet tall wood fence, and one of them is getting very big and out of control.  I wasn't the one who planted them so I don't know what kind they are, I was told they are "areca" and after looking at pictures of them on the internet I think they are Dypsis lutescens, but I could be wrong.

First an overall picture.  It s the one behind the wood fence.  It is a bit dense so hard to see the trunks.

Behind the fence is also my swimming pool and spa's mechanical equipment and underground piping for them.  Whoever planted them didn't plan on how big and wide these palms will spread.

I did some extensive cutting back last weekend, so now it's easier to see how big this root mount has gotten.  It's over three feet tall like a giant camel hump LOL.

It is creeping closer and closer to these equipment, and I am wondering if the roots are already strangling the pipes underneath.

Is it possible to positively ID this palm?  Is it Dypsis lutescens?

In addition, is it normal for it to have a massive root mount like this?  There is no good way to "reduce and clean" this up is there?  Or do I have to remove it sooner or later?

Finally, I thought palms are single trunk plants and do not form branches?  But then this one clearly have branches.  Not only there are two branches off the same trunk, there is another branch off one of the branches.  Is this normal?

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by miamicuse

[miamicuse]

One more question, since the trunks are on the top portion of the root mount, how deep are the roots?  Are the roots for the healthy growing trunks deeper than actual ground that's three feet below?  Is there a way to divide this thing into smaller clusters, remove this massive root mount and transplant what I can save somewhere else?

[Johnny Palmseed]

Looks like you have ID’d it correctly. It seems like an old planting that was never trimmed. This is actually pretty common from what I’ve seen. It does look mounded but maybe it’s just new growth on top of old. The branching or suckering is fairly normal.

[Johnny Palmseed]

3 minutes ago, miamicuse said:

One more question, since the trunks are on the top portion of the root mount, how deep are the roots?  Are the roots for the healthy growing trunks deeper than actual ground that's three feet below?  Is there a way to divide this thing into smaller clusters, remove this massive root mount and transplant what I can save somewhere else?

I wouldn’t waste time trying to save pieces of the cluster. You probably have a number of seedlings that would transplant easily. Or you could just dig it all out and plant something more interesting.

[miamicuse]

1 minute ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

I wouldn’t waste time trying to save pieces of the cluster. You probably have a number of seedlings that would transplant easily. Or you could just dig it all out and plant something more interesting.

I have seven other clusters of this one but this is the only one that formed a big high mount, but this is also the biggest and tallest.

So I am wondering, will the rest of them eventually form this big mount of roots or is there a way to keep them all "grounded"?

[Johnny Palmseed]

20 minutes ago, miamicuse said:

I have seven other clusters of this one but this is the only one that formed a big high mount, but this is also the biggest and tallest.

So I am wondering, will the rest of them eventually form this big mount of roots or is there a way to keep them all "grounded"?

The only thing I can guess is that the original planting died off and was left there. New growth formed on top of the old. Those root clusters can be quite thick and I believe could support growth of seeds that had become embedded. If the others have a more natural look, they probably will continue to grow normally.

[Fusca]

59 minutes ago, miamicuse said:

I was told they are "areca" and after looking at pictures of them on the internet I think they are Dypsis lutescens, but I could be wrong.

 

It is creeping closer and closer to these equipment, and I am wondering if the roots are already strangling the pipes underneath.

Is it possible to positively ID this palm?  Is it Dypsis lutescens?

In addition, is it normal for it to have a massive root mount like this?  There is no good way to "reduce and clean" this up is there?  Or do I have to remove it sooner or later?

It is Dypsis lutescens as John has stated.  You were told it is an "areca palm" because that's one of the common names used for Dypsis lutescens which is confusing because Areca is the name of an entire genera of 36 palm species.  For what it's worth it is also called "golden came palm" and "butterfly palm" which are less confusing.  

Palm roots aren't like dicot tree roots and not likely to cause damage.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Keep an eye out for ganoderma.

[NOT A TA]

Those are old plantings, think 30-40 years. What happens is the falling fronds, seed stalks and other debris get in between the stems and deteriorate creating a mulch that stays damp which is a perfect place for falling seed to germinate without any human help here due to our high rainfall. They can be maintained to slow the mound development substantially but that requires someone to constantly remove fallen fronds (almost weekly), plus cut most of the suckers off a few times a year, and pull out all the seedlings that will be sprouting the next month or so before they get a chance to really get going.

The clusters that don't have the big mound were probably maintained more frequently than the one behind the fence. It's a lot of time consuming work but you can cut the mound at ground level with a chain saw. Cut vertically then horizontally and remove it in sections. Expect to have a very dull chain or two per clump. I've removed several big ones like yours. One like you have next to the pool pump will take hours. The chain saw dulls much quicker because of the sand that is trapped in the "wood" so to speak. Cutting that lump at ground level is usually like cutting a 4' tree trunk. It's usually pretty much solid wood inside.

The suckering is very common and "branching" is fairly common. I've been growing a bunch as singles I started from seed of a branching one with the intent of having singles with the branching feature. I grow a lot of Dypsis lutescens clumps I sell locally to regular homeowners.

I haven't seen the roots break pipes like dicots do but I have seen them bend plastic irrigation pipes.

As @Jerry@TreeZoo has noted Ganoderma zonatum will very likely grow in the clump or stump. There's no way to prevent it and it's the common fungus that helps deteriorate woody palm tissue here.  It's actually very likely that it's growing on one or more of your clumps already you just don't know it.

[miamicuse]

May be this is ground zero for my Ganoderma butt rot issues.  I have had two other clusters (smaller ones) infected with it and I cut them down last year, then I spotted another infection at a 50 foot tall Roystonea regia over 30 feet away also cut down last year, surprising twelve Livistona chinensis in between show no sign of it yet (knock wood).

I am a bit discouraged to learn that this is like hardwood inside this mound.  I was hoping it's softer half decayed materials but I guess not.

[NOT A TA]

1 hour ago, miamicuse said:

May be this is ground zero for my Ganoderma butt rot issues.  I have had two other clusters (smaller ones) infected with it and I cut them down last year, then I spotted another infection at a 50 foot tall Roystonea regia over 30 feet away also cut down last year, surprising twelve Livistona chinensis in between show no sign of it yet (knock wood).

I am a bit discouraged to learn that this is like hardwood inside this mound.  I was hoping it's softer half decayed materials but I guess not.

I've been observing, studying, and experimenting with Ganoderma zonatum for several years. I keep hesitating on starting an ongoing thread about it because I'm afraid it would become an argument with folks who've suffered losses who they think were caused by Ganoderma because they observe a conk after or just prior to the last signs of life. The ganoderma spores are everywhere here in S FL and while it may appear to be opportunistic by starting to break down dead tissue and even forming conks on palms that aren't completely dead yet there hasn't been any successful attempts at infecting a healthy palm that I'm aware of. But I (for one) am still trying.  So there's probably not really a "ground zero" in your case because the spores are on the ground everywhere here.

I have a theory about Ganoderma in Dypsis lutescens clumps I'm trying to determine a good way to prove. I believe there MAY be a somewhat symbiotic relationship between the Ganoderma and the Dypsis lutescens in a natural setting. The theory is that Ganoderma zonatum will break down the woody tissue of stems in a clump that have died of other reasons. Could be long period of drought, fire, lightning, or some other natural cause. When this occurs it then allows space for root growth of seedlings or suckers of live stems to work their way down into the soil below ground level. In the cases of Dypsis lutescens in cultivated settings like our yards, the Ganoderma breaks down the stumps of stems that remain after we've thinned the clumps by cutting out some stems.  And this is why when we try to remove a healthy clump it's mostly still live woody tissue rather than soft partly decayed tissue. I've observed Ganoderma conks in Dypsis clumps that still look otherwise healthy for several years so far.  The conks blend in very well with the base of the clump so careful examination is usually required to find them because they're only on dead stems and usually very small compared with the big ones seen on Queens, Royals etc.  The white of new conk growth that is easy to see is short lived compared with the bigger conks on other types of palms. However, if a whole clump is cut down to stumps, when the humidity and other conditions are good for conk production the conks will be larger and stay white longer.

One of my ongoing experiments is growing an Adonidia merrillii inside the decaying stump of a Cocos nucifera that was loaded with ganoderma.  The coco had been perfectly healthy prior to being cut down and was cut just because it was getting too tall. The new palm has been growing in the stump just fine for years.

[PalmatierMeg]

I would rip out or have taken out all of those Dypsis lutescens then replace them with choicer and less common species. D. lutescens is way overplanted and mostly uncared for in FL so it looks unkempt and ratty. Those specimens have long outlived their usefulness.

[miamicuse]

So I am going to remove it.  The whole thing.

Had some trouble getting to it from the other side, because the pool pump, filter, electrical box, spa heater and everything else are all in the way.   So I decided to remove a section of my wood fence and get to it from the "front side".

Now I can look at the entire plant.  It's a huge mound at the bottom.

I think most of the current stems are rooted in this mound and not rooted in the ground.

I am going to first cut out all the stems. 

Then I am not sure where to go.

Do I cut vertically a slice at a time and use a steel digging bar to break it off, or do I cut horizontally but this is wider than my chainsaw.

A neighbor said why not get a stump grinder to just grind down the whole thing from the top to 6" below grade and turn the whole thing into a big pile of mulch?  So I am considering that option but then I don't think I can go 6" below grade with all the pool/spa piping underneath.

[Johnny Palmseed]

Cut above grade with the chainsaw. You can cut vertical and horizontal cuts to take out pieces of the upper root ball. I have had success in removing root balls with a heavy duty shovel and a log splitting maul. It’s a slow process but you should be able to keep from damaging your pool lines. You basically take it out in chunks. You can use the chainsaw for the roots but the sand will dull the chain rapidly. If you had more room, I would suggest using a rope or cable attached to a vehicle to pull the whole thing to one side and then just cut the opposite side roots. I removed a 30’ queen palm that way using a Toyota Corolla.

[Merlyn]

20 hours ago, miamicuse said:

So I am going to remove it.  The whole thing.

I am going to first cut out all the stems.

Then I am not sure where to go.

Do I cut vertically a slice at a time and use a steel digging bar to break it off, or do I cut horizontally but this is wider than my chainsaw.

If you have a reciprocating saw, the fastest method is a 9" or 12" blade.  It'll cut through that like buttah and the blades are cheap, unlike mangling the bar and chain on a chainsaw cutting into dirt.  I use the Diablo brand 3TPI carbide tipped pruning blades.  They last forever and the low TPI ones work great without clogging.  The higher TPI get clogged up with dirt and sand and don't cut as well.  The chainsaw will work too, but you'll dull the blade in just a couple of cuts.

I'd probably cut off all the trunks about 2-3' above the rootball.  Then you can use the trunks as leverage or as handles to take out pieces of the stump.  Just slice down vertically and take out pie shaped wedges.  A clump like that is heavy and dense, but should cut easy and is manageable if you take out 50-100lb chunks at a time.  A pry bar will help, as will a sharp shovel.

[miamicuse]

It took a while, and a lot of grunting and cursing, but I got rid of it.

The stems were easy, but that mountain of root mass that's half root embedded with dirt and two snakes, was difficult to cut into pieces, shovels, digging bar, sawzall, chainsaw, axe...

It may be difficult to see, but the root mass is still there, about 2 to 3 inches above the rest of the ground.  I will have to do more next weekend.

I do have a question, while the chainsaw was cutting there was A LOT of dust flying around, and my concern is Ganoderma zonatum spores being spread through this.  I have two 40'+ tall coconut palms within six feet of this and I want to do what I can to not have them catch it.  Is there anything I can do?  Pour Hydrogen Peroxide on the base and surrounding soil of the coconut palms? Will that do anything?

[Johnny Palmseed]

I doubt that you could do much about it now since the spores would have been thrown all over the place while working. You could treat the area you worked in for future plantings.

[Merlyn]

There really isn't a treatment for Ganoderma in plants or in the soil.  You could do a soil drench of something like Aliette or sulfur powder or H2O2, or something similar.  I don't know that it would work, though...

[NOT A TA]

Below is my personal opinion based on Ganoderma zonatum experiments and observations over many years. 

Your coconuts should be fine if they're currently healthy so I wouldn't worry about the Ganoderma spores. The spores are EVERYWHERE here already and have been since before we were around just like they'll be here when we're gone. It's in every yard in your neighborhood yet there's thousands of healthy palms growing there not being affected by it.

It's very likely that you may see ganoderma zonatum basidiocarps form on the stump in a few months if the area is irrigated or in the spring when our rainy season starts if there's no irrigation in that area. The reason for this is because the spores have been patiently waiting for the opportunity to devour the remaining woody tissue of your newly dead Dypsis lutescens. The Ganoderma will likely begin breaking down the wood in a short period of time and will continue as long as conditions for it's growth are favorable.  It seems to slow down or speed up depending on environmental conditions. Then once the ganoderma is well established in the trunk mound if/when conditions are right,  basidiocarps may begin formation as a small bright white bump on the NNW side of the stump unless there's a part of the stump that gets more shade or moisture. Ganoderma can be breaking down the woody tissue whether or not a conk forms. Through experimentation I have learned how to initiate conk formation on stumps that I knew probably had ganoderma active in them but showed no outward signs for years.

If it makes you feel better you can break off any conks that form and dispose of them, BUT, as I mentioned the spores are everywhere here already so your removal actions aren't really going to affect mother nature much.   Meanwhile, the Ganoderma zonatum will continue to break down the moist dead woody tissue of the stumps as long as conditions for it's growth are favorable whether you break off any basidiocarps that might form or not.

[miamicuse]

17 hours ago, NOT A TA said:

Below is my personal opinion based on Ganoderma zonatum experiments and observations over many years. 

Your coconuts should be fine if they're currently healthy so I wouldn't worry about the Ganoderma spores. The spores are EVERYWHERE here already and have been since before we were around just like they'll be here when we're gone. It's in every yard in your neighborhood yet there's thousands of healthy palms growing there not being affected by it.

It's very likely that you may see ganoderma zonatum basidiocarps form on the stump in a few months if the area is irrigated or in the spring when our rainy season starts if there's no irrigation in that area. The reason for this is because the spores have been patiently waiting for the opportunity to devour the remaining woody tissue of your newly dead Dypsis lutescens. The Ganoderma will likely begin breaking down the wood in a short period of time and will continue as long as conditions for it's growth are favorable.  It seems to slow down or speed up depending on environmental conditions. Then once the ganoderma is well established in the trunk mound if/when conditions are right,  basidiocarps may begin formation as a small bright white bump on the NNW side of the stump unless there's a part of the stump that gets more shade or moisture. Ganoderma can be breaking down the woody tissue whether or not a conk forms. Through experimentation I have learned how to initiate conk formation on stumps that I knew probably had ganoderma active in them but showed no outward signs for years.

If it makes you feel better you can break off any conks that form and dispose of them, BUT, as I mentioned the spores are everywhere here already so your removal actions aren't really going to affect mother nature much.   Meanwhile, the Ganoderma zonatum will continue to break down the moist dead woody tissue of the stumps as long as conditions for it's growth are favorable whether you break off any basidiocarps that might form or not.

That is an interesting theory.

So if you are right, that this spores in everywhere in the surrounding environment already, and the palms that are affected are palms that are already not too healthy in the first place, does it mean that there is no reason to avoid planting palms in areas of known infection of a previous palm?

We can debate the root cause of a Ganoderma zonatum but the most important factor here that is actionable is whether to avoid planting another palm in a previously infected site (or anywhere close by).  Most information I can find on the internet is suggesting to not plant another palm (any palm) near it, which rules out an entire side of my property.

[NOT A TA]

4 hours ago, miamicuse said:

That is an interesting theory.

So if you are right, that this spores in everywhere in the surrounding environment already, and the palms that are affected are palms that are already not too healthy in the first place, does it mean that there is no reason to avoid planting palms in areas of known infection of a previous palm?

We can debate the root cause of a Ganoderma zonatum but the most important factor here that is actionable is whether to avoid planting another palm in a previously infected site (or anywhere close by).  Most information I can find on the internet is suggesting to not plant another palm (any palm) near it, which rules out an entire side of my property.

The recommendations not to plant where Ganoderma zonatum has been active seems to be based on common sanitary practices which makes sense given the limited scientific experimentation and studies of it and the possibilities based on other pathogens. The recommendations are like cheap insurance, sort of, and if I was active in a government agency charged with providing information I'd probably give the same advise, because it's safe advise and no one can say "But you told me".   If you don't plant something where something else died it's got a better chance of survival based on the limited scientific information currently available. 

However Ganoderma is everywhere here and isn't wiping out all the palms in S FL.  It seems to just be a part of mother natures system of decomposing dead palm tissue.  In many cases I've seen it is actively growing in palms that are still partially alive which makes it appear that the Ganoderma is the cause of the palms demise when a conk forms on a dying palm. The palm may be dying of old age, drought, disease, chemical damage, or other causes but if a bright white conk shows up it leads people to think the Ganoderma is killing the palm. When palms look perfectly healthy they don't look closely for anything so it may be actively growing in places like a D lutescens clump but no one notices.  One of the first cases I studied for several years initially appeared as though the Ganoderma was moving from tree to tree however what was really killing the trees was Thielaviopsis paradoxa being spread from tree to tree by trimming crews not disinfecting pruning tools between trees. The Ganoderma was a secondary fungus infection but because of the obvious bright white conk formation it appeared the Ganoderma was the culprit.

If I came to your neighborhood I can almost guarantee I could find active Ganoderma in yours or your neighbors yards. It's in stumps of palms that were cut down, clumps of Dypsis lutescens including ones that appear perfectly healthy, palm logs from trees folks cut down and never dragged out of backyards, coconuts decaying, and compost piles.

Here's an experiment where I planted a  Adonidia merrillii in the stump of a coconut that was filled with a gonaderma stew.  The coco was felled because it was getting too tall and at the time the stump was like a pot and held water. I tried driving a piece of rebar through the bottom to drain the water before planting to no avail.  So I left the stew in the stump, added soil, and the biggest plant I could fit the root ball of into the stump and have the plant be at roughly ground level when the stump is completely gone. Bottom pic is today and it's been trunking. You may have seen publications that suggested Ganoderma only infects trunking palms which I also read years ago and so this is one of my ongoing experiments. I'm sure I could break away the remains of the stump but it's a good prop for pics hahaha.

[NOT A TA]

Ganoderma basidiocarp on a coconut. Plant is now leading a posh pampered life beside a canal in Ft Lauderdale.

Ganoderma basidiocarp in the adventitious root zone of a Dypsis lutescens clump. The conks are on a stem that was cut when thinning the clump and are about 2" across. They blend in with the root mound and if the natural debris was left in place no one would notice the little white bump that forms a new conk when conditions are right.

[miamicuse]

Very interesting.  I hope the Adonidia survives inside that coconut palm stump.

I also had seven palm stumps of that size or larger in various stage of decay.  I said had because I hired a service to remove 23 stumps on Tuesday.

I tried to talk the service into grinding all the "regular" stumps first, then do a second pass to grind the "Ganoderma infected" last so I won't spread anything around but they said it's too much work to move that machine twice so.

Here are some of my coconut palm "craters" that I could have done what you did to plant another palm inside LOL.  You can see the Ganoderma inside.

Here is another coconut palm stump to the left, and a Dypsis lutescens stump cluster to the right.

You can see the unmistakable Ganoderma cliff like fungus on the right - enlarged picture.

[NOT A TA]

59 minutes ago, miamicuse said:

Very interesting.  I hope the Adonidia survives inside that coconut palm stump.

It's been growing steadily and seems perfectly healthy. I do not fertilize it. I really don't doubt it will do well and planted it to confirm my theory since the opportunity was available. I don't want a palm there so at some point it's going to get a visit from my chain saw. I'll probably wait till the base of the trunk is 6" wide or more so there's no question about it having enough woody trunk tissue to support Ganoderma. I have thousands of palms so no big deal.

Seeing your stump pics was an awesome surprise after I'd previously written "If I came to your neighborhood I can almost guarantee I could find active Ganoderma in yours or your neighbors yards. It's in stumps of palms that were cut down,"  hahaha Did you cut or have cut down the other palms that had the Ganoderma zonatum growing in the stumps?

Did your other regular stumps have basidiocarps from other types of decay fungus? Some that grow on certain dicots here have really cool looking ones that are very short lived like the one in the pic below.

 

 

[Jimhardy]

Well done on the removal!

[Looking Glass]

I think the theory on ganoderma is an interesting one that seems to make sense, but some palms seem more susceptible to problems with it than others.  

My next door neighbor once had two mature Butia and D. decaryi in the driveway island.  These all died of fungal issues just prior to us moving in next door.  Conchs were apparent on the trunks before death.   Now there are some stumps left in there with fruiting bodies still sprouting all over.  

This spring a small volunteer emerged from the rubble, and quickly grew to about 8+ feet tall now.   It appears to be a Royal offspring from the giants across the street.  He asked me to submit it to you all for a positive ID, though I’m pretty sure it’s Roystonea regia.     

I wonder what it’s long term fate will be in a sea of gandoderma?   We shall see I guess.