My Medjool Date Palms

[annsplants]

I had sent a picture to someone of my largest Medjool Date Palm which is 12' clear trunk but hasn't been trimmed in 2 years and he said it was a Silvestri.

Could someone please tell me from these pictures if this is a Medjool or Silvestri.

When I bought my palms in pots from what I thought was a reputable nursery in Homestead over 16 years ago I was told they were Medjools.

Thanks, Ann

[kinzyjr]

@annsplants They look more like Phoenix sylvestris to me.  For a true Medjool, the fruit are usually larger and the palm a bit more robust:

Here are a bunch of large, healthy Medjools: South State Bank Building, Lakeland, FL

[Victor G.]

17 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@annsplants They look more like Phoenix sylvestris to me.  For a true Medjool, the fruit are usually larger and the palm a bit more robust:

Here are a bunch of large, healthy Medjools: South State Bank Building, Lakeland, FL

Interesting! They way I know it, dates require dryness and no rain on top (lots of irrigation on the bottom though) to produce decent fruit. Which contradicts the FL climate.

Do you know if they fruit well over there?

Thanks!!

[annsplants]

I was hoping to talk to someone that had actually grown them in Florida. They of course are not going to grow as

well in Floridas humid climate as in the Desert. The dates in the picture are from my tree. They do produce fruit but not

as well as one growing in a dryer climate. It's not as manicured as those in the picture you sent which were probably done by

a commercial palm company after they were sold to the developer of that property.

 

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, Victor G. said:

Interesting! They way I know it, dates require dryness and no rain on top (lots of irrigation on the bottom though) to produce decent fruit. Which contradicts the FL climate.

Do you know if they fruit well over there?

Thanks!!

The fruit usually ferments in Florida.  When mine set fruit, the seed is viable but I don't dare ingest the fruit.

23 minutes ago, annsplants said:

I was hoping to talk to someone that had actually grown them in Florida.

You're in luck.  Lakeland is in Florida and I've grown Phoenix dactylifera from seed to maturity:  https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/52296-palms-and-others-of-interest/

25 minutes ago, annsplants said:

It's not as manicured as those in the picture you sent which were probably done by

a commercial palm company after they were sold to the developer of that property.

Those date palms have been there for over 15 years.  They were here when I moved here, and they are still here.  Yes, they are well maintained an manicured as this is downtown.  Most of the rest have died of Lethal Bronzing.  Unfortunately, Phoenix sylvestris is too.  In particular, the Phoenix dactylifera that line the US-98 median from South Florida Ave. down to Grove Park have been completely wiped out.  For comparison, these are Phoenix sylvestris at Lake Hollingsworth here in Lakeland:

 

[annsplants]

OK Kinzy- do you have a picture of your mature Medjool Date Palm? I didn't see one on that link you sent.

Maybe next to a picture of your mature silvestri so I can see the difference?

[kinzyjr]

@annsplants The photos below should have been on the second page.  I was hoping that I had a photo of the infructescence on mine after it turned orange with mature fruit, but I don't think I posted it there. 

There are a few distinguishing features you can use for a positive ID.  The infructescence on female plants will usually turn orange on Phoenix dactylifera and yellow on Phoenix sylvestris.

Phoenix dactylifera

The fruit on Phoenix dactylifera 'Medjool" are also larger (more toward the 4cm mark) than Phoenix sylvestris (typically 2-2.5cm).

The fronds on Phoenix dactylifera are larger (very near 6m/20ft on the ones in my photos) vs. Phoenix sylvestris (usually to out around 4m/13ft, sometimes up to 5m/16ft).

One thing that complicates Phoenix species ID in Florida is that, if the seed source is unknown, then the palms could be hybrids.  Any female Phoenix palm will gladly accept pollen from any male of the other species that happen to be flowering at the same time.  Since Phoenix dactylifera and Phoenix sylvestris are closely related already, a hybrid can sometimes make it very hard to distinguish their lineage.

References:

Phoenix dactylifera: https://idtools.org/id/palms/palmid/factsheet.php?name=Phoenix+dactylifera

Phoenix sylvestris: https://idtools.org/id/palms/palmid/factsheet.php?name=Phoenix+sylvestris 

Phoenix sylvestris infructescence photo: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FR308

[annsplants]

Well I may have both, there is no way to know if the places I got them from over 16 years ago were labeling them correctly.

I put more pictures on the very bottom of my website of the smaller ones out of the 30 I have altogether and was

hoping you could tell me which were which on the bottom of AnnPlants.com

There are 6 images in a row so if you see one that you can identify just tell me the image number and which tree going from left to right on the image.

Thanks, Ann

[annsplants]

Whoops - I meant on the bottom of ANNSPLANTS.COM

[kinzyjr]

2 hours ago, annsplants said:

Well I may have both, there is no way to know if the places I got them from over 16 years ago were labeling them correctly.

I put more pictures on the very bottom of my website of the smaller ones out of the 30 I have altogether and was

hoping you could tell me which were which on the bottom of AnnPlants.com

There are 6 images in a row so if you see one that you can identify just tell me the image number and which tree going from left to right on the image.

Thanks, Ann

I'm very sure that they are all Phoenix sylvestris based on the size/shape of the fruit, shape of the crown, and overall size.  If they set fruit, get another photo if them while the fruit is mature.  If it is a nice bright yellow instead of a construction sign orange, it's confirmed.

Hopefully they will stay healthy for you.  We've lost a lot of them to Lethal Bronzing down here.

[annsplants]

Thanks, unless I hear otherwise I am going to advertise them all as Silvestris then

- the seeds too since the seeds I am selling will all be from that larger palm and the dates are more yellow than orange.

If you  or anyone else can think of anything else I could look for that might help me to identify them let me know.

Also other opinions are ok too if anyone wants to look at the pictures and has something to say.

The Date Palm pictures are all on the bottom of AnnsPlants.com

Ann

 

[Phoenikakias]

On 10/2/2021 at 2:08 PM, kinzyjr said:

@annsplants 

 

 

 

 

Since Phoenix dactylifera and Phoenix sylvestris are closely related already, a hybrid can sometimes make it very hard to distinguish their lineage.

 

In this context, I have to mention a  study conducted, if I recall correctly,  by Clair Newton and  Muriel Gros-Balthazard, where a field inspection in Indian date groves and surrounding wild stands of Sylvestris did not discover apparent hybrids.

As for the identification of pure dactylifera, one has imo to pay attention to proximal acanthophylls.  Those are considerably smaller than median and distal ones of same petiole, a unique feature of dactylifera in contrast to all wild relatives and hybrids and imho a result of domestication. Late J-C Pintaud  was planning to conduct thorough measurements in this regard.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Phoenikakias

[annsplants]

Proximal Acanthophyll

The spines nearest the base of the leaf where it attaches to the trunk?is that what I should be looking for?

So if anyone can post a closeup of the spines under each type - next to each other so I can see the difference that would help-while I go see if I can find any pictures myself.

Thanks, Ann

[annsplants]

These sites helped a little but no enough.

https://idtools.org/id/palms/palmid/factsheet.php?name=Phoenix+dactylifera

http://idtools.org/id/palms/palmid/factsheet.php?name=Phoenix+sylvestris

The spine patterns look the same to me.

[Phoenikakias]

3 hours ago, annsplants said:

Proximal Acanthophyll

The spines nearest the base of the leaf where it attaches to the trunk?is that what I should be looking for?

So if anyone can post a closeup of the spines under each type - next to each other so I can see the difference that would help-while I go see if I can find any pictures myself.

Thanks, Ann

Precisely!

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, annsplants said:

These sites helped a little but no enough.

https://idtools.org/id/palms/palmid/factsheet.php?name=Phoenix+dactylifera

http://idtools.org/id/palms/palmid/factsheet.php?name=Phoenix+sylvestris

The spine patterns look the same to me.

Not dactylifera, sorry! But you may have a pure sylvestris, congrats!

[Phoenikakias]

Hopefully following picture makes clear my point.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On 9/30/2021 at 6:49 PM, annsplants said:

I had sent a picture to someone of my largest Medjool Date Palm which is 12' clear trunk but hasn't been trimmed in 2 years and he said it was a Silvestri.

Could someone please tell me from these pictures if this is a Medjool or Silvestri.

When I bought my palms in pots from what I thought was a reputable nursery in Homestead over 16 years ago I was told they were Medjools.

Thanks, Ann

Ann, your big one is definitely a Phoenix sylvestris.  We grow them over here in Corpus Christi.  You can tell a sylvestris because they have a prettier, more dense crown of leaves.  The ones with the more bluish green leaf color are more sought after than the standard green leaved variety.

John

[annsplants]

Thank you and I accept that the largest one is a Silvestris BUT

- I had bought all 30 of my date palms from nurserys in South Florida 16 years ago- they were about 2-3 yrs old in pots at that time.

They were not all from the same nursery but every one of them told me they were selling me Medjool Date Palms.

So out of 30 palms that I have planted - at least one of them has to be a Medjool and I am just trying to figure out how to tell the difference.

The 2 spine pictures I put together above - the 1st one is a Dactyleria and the 2nd one is a Silvestris.

I see no difference in the spine patterns at all.

Even looking at the picture submitted by Phoenikakias I must be blind because I see no difference.

I would need to see a picture of the spines of each next to each other and someone to put an arrow on the picture to show me what the difference is.

The spine patterns in the 2 spine pictures I submitted both look alike.

Not all of my palms will produce dates as some are male - so I can't tell by waiting for that to happen.

There has to be a way to tell by the spines.

A.

[NOT A TA]

1 hour ago, annsplants said:

I had bought all 30 of my date palms from nurserys in South Florida 16 years ago- they were about 2-3 yrs old in pots at that time.

They were not all from the same nursery but every one of them told me they were selling me Medjool Date Palms.

Many retail nurseries buy their plants from wholesale growers. If you bought all of the plants from nurseries within a certain geographical area and time period the plants MAY have all come from the same grower.  All it takes is one person to make a mistake and many retail nurseries within say a 100 mile radius would have mislabeled inventory. So if you bought all the plants within say two years and they were all roughly the same age/size they may have all come from the same grower and been mislabeled.

I worked in retail nurseries through high school and college and managed one for a few years and can tell you things like that do happen. A lot of people in the industry are not necessarily experts, to them it's just a job. I remember getting a shipment of white birch trees that were mislabeled, they were white and birch, but not the ones I'd ordered. If I didn't know they weren't the type listed on the tags no one that worked for me would have known they were anything different than what the tag said and they would have sold them as such. I'd ordered Betula pendula and was shipped Betula papyrifera.

[annsplants]

Thanks for letting me know. Oh well at least I got some canaries.

I found the difference in resale price per foot between the 2 different kinds of palms is about $50.

That really ads up. I think the Silvestris are faster growing too.  Found a place in Plant City

that sells both and has lots of pictures of both on their site. And the pictures show both trees when young and  before they are manicured.

https://hardypalmtrees.com/product/medjool-palm/ (longer fronds is all that I can see)

https://hardypalmtrees.com/product/sylvester-palm/ (thicker bunches of fronds)