At what age/size/height can a palm seedling be identifiable?

[miamicuse]

This may be a dumb question.

If I have unknown palm seedlings popping out of the ground, and there are too many different palms nearby, at what point can positive ID of the species be made?

[Johnny Palmseed]

It's not a dumb question but it is probably impossible to identify palm seedlings without a few years growth. If you can narrow it down by finding seed husks or seeing palmate vs pinnate growth, you might have a chance. If you have a cluster of palms dropping seeds at the same time, in the same general area, you will have to wait for years. And you can't forget about random animal drops. For instance, I have Roebelenii seedlings popping up under my Roebeleniis but I also have what looks like a Washingtonian in the middle. 

[Butch]

I have the same problem with some foxtails... I had one dropping turn out to be a foxy lady... But have foxtails popping up all the time... I wish I could tell by seed, or when very small, as the foxtails get discarded, but would love another foxy lady...

Butch

[Silas_Sancona]

Agree w/ J palmseed, not a dumb question at all...

Some are definitely easier than others..  One can tell the difference between a Washingtonia and a Sabal seedling pretty quickly after they sprout. Can harder to tell different Sabal species apart at first though.  Same w/ a Bismarckia ( unless you also have other, large seeded, and bluish /silver colored palms nearby.. )

Things like seedling Archontophoenix, Dypsis lutescens, Ptychosperma, Kentiopsis o's, ..and some others in this category can be a little more tricky to figure out at first,  but, kind of like id'ing weeds, once you've observed enough of a particular plant, from the start,  telling apart subtle differences between each becomes a little easier..  but is never 100% fool proof. 
 

[EJ;)]

I would bet my life that 99% of all palm tree seedlings in my yard are from my Washingtonian's! They grow like weeds here in California!

because it does take a year or so for true leaves, depending on the species. I would dig them up and pot them for further discovery! The last thing you want is a ton of a species of palm you dont want growing with deeper roots than necessary. Its like Christmas when you discover what they are! 

[DoomsDave]

@miamicuse this is not a dumb question!

Just because you've been in this madness for a couple decades or so doesn't mean you know what seeds are. Sometimes you mislabel them. Sometimes you get gifts and forget what the giver told you they were, and/or sometimes the giver is wrong. Sometimes you grab seeds and mis-ID the plant you grabbed them from.

I regularly ponder this question as I look through my Little Greenhouse of Horrors and its constantly changing roster of inhabitants.

Hybrids can be a knotty problem, at least at first. Telling bitty mongrel babies from their "pure" brethren/sistren can be tricky, particularly if the parents are very similar in appearance, e.g., Archontophoenix tuckeri and myolensis.

[NOT A TA]

Absolutely not a dumb question. I regularly ponder "What is this? Hmmmm did I plant it, did birds drop seeds, did I drop seeds, did I reuse potting soil that might have had other seed in it that just hadn't germinated yet??" As for seeds that pop up randomly in my lawn & gardens here it's usually, Roystonea regia, Dypsis lutescens, & Sabal palmetto.  Others will grow under the tree they're from like Phoenix roebelenii, Syagrus romanzoffiana, Wodyetia bifurcata, and Adonidia merrillii.

The palms I regularly germinate I can identify the seedlings fairly easily compared with others I germinate because none of them are very similar. However as noted above if you've got lots of similar types of palms close by you'll probably have to wait till they're juveniles.

I have a whole section of various sizes of a certain kind of palm and I have no clue what they are. They started showing up years ago and I kept saving one or a few when weeding. No other similar palm close by. I do know they germinate easily and the seeds can be almost a foot below the top of the soil and they'll sprout. Took me a couple years to figure out where the seeds were coming from but I still haven't figured out how to grow them and make them look nice.  I'm ready to toss them all out so I can have the space back. I should start an identify thread.

[miamicuse]

Thank you, this is very helpful information.

I have palm seedlings in different areas of my yard, yet I have no idea what they are.  I have none different types of mature palms in close proximity to each other so I have no idea what the seedlings are.

Here is one such area.

I am not sure what kind they are, but I can tell there are three distinct kinds.

This one has a single leaf.

This one has two.

yet this one has four.

So are these all different palms?  I am trying to decide if I want to pull them all out or let some grow.

[NOT A TA]

Since they're growing in clumps close together they probably haven't been dropped by birds or whatever and probably fell from a tree almost right above the groups then the seeds are brushed/swept/ kicked off the walkway. Then they started germinating there because that's where water puddles keeping them damp for germination. If you make a short list of the palms close to the seedlings and dig one of each up for a pic we may be able to determine which palms the seedlings are by process of elimination. If you can get a bare root pic of one with the seed still attached ID might be easier.

[miamicuse]

OK here are some pictures.  I removed one of each kind.  The single leaf palm seedling I called "A". the double leaf palm seedling I called "B" and the quadruple leaf I called "C".  The seeds look about the same size to me.

Here is a closer picture of A.

Here is a closer picture of B.

and a closer picture of C.

As to what kinds of palms are in my yard close to these seedlings, I have the following:

(1) Livistona chinensis - I have about half a dozen mature Livistona chinensis very close to it and hanging over that area.  But I do not ever remember seeing any of them flower.

(2) Caryota mitis - several clusters of these but again I don't see any flowers from them, and I know they will die after flowering.

(3) Dypsis decaryi - I have one that flowers all the time but over 25 feet from it.

(4) Syagrus romanzoffiana - one specimen about twenty feet from it.

(5) Roystonea oleracea - this one was about 15 feet away but was cut down June 2020 due to Ganoderma butt rot, it was flowering a lot and dropped lots of seeds, but I doubt it will be germinating over a year later right?

(6) Chrysalidocarpus lutescens - two mature clusters of these about 25 feet away.

(7) Cocos nucifera - a few of these over 40 feet away but I know these are not coconut palms.

(8) A few other palms which I have not positively IDed.  There are pictures of them in this thread: https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/70753-need-help-id-some-of-my-palms/ Some suggested they are Ptychosperma, perhaps Ptychosperma elegans.

[Valhallalla]

My non-expert opinion:

A) Roystonea regia

B ) Ptychosperma elegans

C) Dypsis lutescens

Edited October 8, 2021 by Valhallalla
Emoji

[miamicuse]

On 10/8/2021 at 7:36 AM, Valhallalla said:

My non-expert opinion:

A) Roystonea regia

B ) Ptychosperma elegans

C) Dypsis lutescens

on (A) my single Roystonea regia was cut down in June 2020 due to Ganoderma butt rot,  I wonder can seedlings be coming up now sixteen months later?  I know it was dropping flowers and fruits before it's demise.

(B) I agree.

(C) I do have Dypsis lutescens at the property but it's over fifty feet away and these are coming up everywhere in this spot, I can count like 20 seedlings in a 1ftx1ft area.  I can't imagine it can be wind that carried the seeds here in a large bundle?

Is it possible (B) and (C) are the same?  That (B) sprouts two more leaves as it gets bigger?

[Silas_Sancona]

6 minutes ago, miamicuse said:

(C) I do have Dypsis lutescens at the property but it's over fifty feet away and these are coming up everywhere in this spot, I can count like 20 seedlings in a 1ftx1ft area.  I can't imagine it can be wind that carried the seeds here in a large bundle?

 

Birds, Rats, etc critters that like the fruit can distribute fruit / seeds far and wide from the tree producing them. Heavy rain runoff, and / or a strong enough wind event can move individual seeds around as well.
 
I have no Washingtonia in my yard but the ground below the Mesquite out back is carpeted w/ seed every year from the birds that " deposit " them.  A few seeds off the ones in the street island occasionally get blown into the front yard also.

[GottmitAlex]

At least when it comes to coconut palms, the ID is instant.

[Jeff Searle]

On 9/26/2021 at 8:49 PM, miamicuse said:

This may be a dumb question.

If I have unknown palm seedlings popping out of the ground, and there are too many different palms nearby, at what point can positive ID of the species be made?

Depends on the level of the palm expert looking at it. Lol....

[Fusca]

On 10/9/2021 at 5:40 PM, miamicuse said:

on (A) my single Roystonea regia was cut down in June 2020 due to Ganoderma butt rot,  I wonder can seedlings be coming up now sixteen months later?  I know it was dropping flowers and fruits before it's demise.

(B) I agree.

(C) I do have Dypsis lutescens at the property but it's over fifty feet away and these are coming up everywhere in this spot, I can count like 20 seedlings in a 1ftx1ft area.  I can't imagine it can be wind that carried the seeds here in a large bundle?

Is it possible (B) and (C) are the same?  That (B) sprouts two more leaves as it gets bigger?

My first thought was Roystonea for A and B & C were both Ptychosperma.  The B seedlings will have a pair of bifid leaves when they get older.  And yes, it's possible for seeds to germinate after 16 months.  I germinated an Acrocomia aculeata seed once that took 2 years - and I was trying to give it ideal conditions!

[Johnny Palmseed]

On 10/9/2021 at 6:40 PM, miamicuse said:

on (A) my single Roystonea regia was cut down in June 2020 due to Ganoderma butt rot,  I wonder can seedlings be coming up now sixteen months later?  I know it was dropping flowers and fruits before it's demise.

(B) I agree.

(C) I do have Dypsis lutescens at the property but it's over fifty feet away and these are coming up everywhere in this spot, I can count like 20 seedlings in a 1ftx1ft area.  I can't imagine it can be wind that carried the seeds here in a large bundle?

Is it possible (B) and (C) are the same?  That (B) sprouts two more leaves as it gets bigger?

(A) I think that is possible as I have Royals popping up everywhere I disturb the soil in the general vicinity of where mine was.

(B) Difficult to tell from the resolution but Ptychosperma Elegans have obvious striation ridges.

(C) This is possible due to animals. I have found scat in the yard which had probably 20-30 seeds in one pile. No, I didn’t take it apart and count it, but it was a lot of the same seed.

(D) They could be the same but as with (B), the resolution is not high enough to be able to tell. Perhaps (C) germinated before (B).

I took a picture of a royal seedling. It looks like (A) with 2 single leaves and no bifid characteristics. I don’t have the other palm types.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Johnny Palmseed

[Valhallalla]

On 10/9/2021 at 6:40 PM, miamicuse said:

on (A) my single Roystonea regia was cut down in June 2020 due to Ganoderma butt rot,  I wonder can seedlings be coming up now sixteen months later?  I know it was dropping flowers and fruits before it's demise.

(B) I agree.

(C) I do have Dypsis lutescens at the property but it's over fifty feet away and these are coming up everywhere in this spot, I can count like 20 seedlings in a 1ftx1ft area.  I can't imagine it can be wind that carried the seeds here in a large bundle?

Is it possible (B) and (C) are the same?  That (B) sprouts two more leaves as it gets bigger?

(A) I don't know how long Roystonea seeds generally stay viable but it is possible old seeds are sprouting. The seeds of all the palms in question are relatively small and are easily transported and distributed by birds and other small animals. I often have Royals pop up in my yard and the nearest palm is 200 feet away. Just yesterday I dug out a couple of Royal volunteers one of which had its missing seed buried about two inches in the ground. This was probably done by a bird, most likely a blue jay. They love to bury food all over the place but never remember the locations of their treasure.

(B) I guess we are in agreement.

(C) Probably as Johnny Palmseed described above.

(D) One easy way to tell if they are different is to examine the seeds. Ptychosperma have a very distinctive five sided star shape in cross section while Dypsis is basically round. Below I show one seed of P. elegans I cut apart and another fresh one end view. I am not sure if this five sided character is true for all Ptychosperma species but it true for all the ones I have handled.