Sabal rosei Damage

[PlantDad]

I recently received a Sabal rosei. It has been acclimated to full sun and was doing great until I looked at it today. It appears to be spotting from cool wet exposure. I'm in Oregon zone 8b and last night we had the first significant rain since spring. The low last night was 57 degrees. I didn't expect spotting like this. Sabal rosei is not a sabal I'm very familiar. Does any one have any advice? Thanks

Edited September 20, 2021 by PlantDad

[D Palm]

Sabals do not like pots, the roots like to shoot down very fast.  Be very gentle with the roots also. I am not familiar with the species Rosei so I do not know if that is normal. 

[Chester B]

Where’d it come from?  If it were sent by mail it could be damage showing up from the stress of that. I’ve had it happen many times. 

[PlantDad]

3 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Where’d it come from?  If it were sent by mail it could be damage showing up from the stress of that. I’ve had it happen many times. 

It came from Florida. Looked great when I got. I remember. Maybe the stress of going from Florida to cool Oregon wet is causing a bit of damage. The damage on some of the fronds look just like the cool moisture spotting that Washingtonia filifera gets here in the winter. 

[PlantDad]

2 hours ago, D Palm said:

Sabals do not like pots, the roots like to shoot down very fast.  Be very gentle with the roots also. I am not familiar with the species Rosei so I do not know if that is normal. 

I know Sabals do better in the ground vs pots. I just keep mine in pots until I move into a permanent home

[tinman10101]

those look like older leaves therefore they were acclimated to weather from its original home. any deviation from weather from its original home will show damage.  i would be more worried if it was newer damaged leaves that have opened up since being in oregon.  

[PlantDad]

On 9/28/2021 at 1:36 PM, tinman10101 said:

those look like older leaves therefore they were acclimated to weather from its original home. any deviation from weather from its original home will show damage.  i would be more worried if it was newer damaged leaves that have opened up since being in oregon.  

Ok thank you. Yeah the new growth it is pushing is perfectly healthy 

[MarkbVet]

Banana Joe has one of these on Salt Spring Island in So. Canada, on the coast, lots of rain and some snow,  it's been in ground unprotected since the 1990's, and looks fine.  Grows really slowly for him, still not much taller than he is after all these years, due to inadequate heat where he's at-- but moisture ain't a problem!   This species tolerates drought well but supposedly can tolerate some flooding as well (at least for brief periods).   Cold tolerance might be a concern, but Banana Joe's history suggests the palm is hardy to 8a, which is good enough for western Oregon.    So your leaves changing so rapidly suggests that the older leaves weren't acclimated to our climate.   Hopefully new leaves correct that!   FYI you can find a TON of vids on youtube of banana Joe's S. rosei if you do a search on that species name.   :-)   This has been touted as one of the greenest Sabals, but Joe's definitely has a bluish tint, so there appears to be some color variation in this species. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Sabal King]

I just planted a 3G Sabal Rosei in our South Side Sabal row this spring and thus far is growing nicely.  It's more compact than the others on Sabal Row so it's an interesting specimen.  We'll see how long term it fares here but it's rated zone 8a so I am hopeful.

Edited April 4, 2022 by tlow

[Sabal King]

It's been a few years so figured I would update on our Sabal rosei.  It handles cold extremely well and looks like it will start getting ready to push a trunk soon

[JohnAndSancho]

1 hour ago, Sabal King said:

It's been a few years so figured I would update on our Sabal rosei.  It handles cold extremely well and looks like it will start getting ready to push a trunk soon

Look a lot better than I thought they would. Makes me wonder if the Maratima you sent me could make it once they recover from the crap soil I had them in - apparently the center of it dried out, they've been repotted and are slowly recovering. You know how slow these things are to recover from the slightest little bird fart. 

[Allen]

2 hours ago, Sabal King said:

It's been a few years so figured I would update on our Sabal rosei.  It handles cold extremely well and looks like it will start getting ready to push a trunk soon

That is a great looking palm.  Can you post some fruit sizes of this palm? I know many people have looked at whether this is a rosei and that would help clear that issue up.  From the fronds and other pics you have shared this palm resembles something more like a minor x palmetto hybrid like brazoriensis and would have the resulting fruit size similar to brazoriensis in the <10mm range and not in the 15mm+ range of rosei.  The leaf segments also do not seem small enough diameter to be rosei that has the more delicate wispy look

[Sabal King]

10 hours ago, Allen said:

That is a great looking palm.  Can you post some fruit sizes of this palm? I know many people have looked at whether this is a rosei and that would help clear that issue up.  From the fronds and other pics you have shared this palm resembles something more like a minor x palmetto hybrid like brazoriensis and would have the resulting fruit size similar to brazoriensis in the <10mm range and not in the 15mm+ range of rosei.  The leaf segments also do not seem small enough diameter to be rosei that has the more delicate wispy look

I will post fruit/seed sizes when I can.  The ID game is difficult in Sabals for a variety of reasons.  The original seeds for this palm came from inge hoffman on a seed collecting trip with the IPS decades ago.  Joe had received these seeds and has grown them in Augusta, GA ever since.   The seed size of ours is smaller than zona had noted but nevertheless comes from habitat collected "rosei" parents.

Here is parent palm of ours

This has been discussed at length with many folks who have been doing this for decades and decades, but the problem with judging everything on zona's work is challenging and incomplete.  His data was a point in time, and has not evolved since.  The area where he did hisi work, specifically with uresana is cartel country and no one goes back to continue his work so to say what he found decades ago is gosepl, concrete, and will not change is silly.  If you read the monograph the population he studied was very small so the sample size is not large at all.

Again.. It's a Sabal rosei until something convincingly proves us all otherwise.  There are many examples of this including the Sabal domingensis (Valdosta, GA) is another great example.  Everyone has a domingensis, everyone is certain there is a domingensis, and even more certain someone elses' is not.

Until someone goes back and picks up with zona left off it is an amazing foundation, but incomplete and still just a starting point with so much yet to learn with our beloved Sabals.

[Harry’s Palms]

That is an amazing looking palm , @Sabal King . My only experience with Sabal is very limited but they seem to tough as nails even at a very early age . Harry

[Sabal King]

2 minutes ago, Harry’s Palms said:

That is an amazing looking palm , @Sabal King . My only experience with Sabal is very limited but they seem to tough as nails even at a very early age . Harry

Thanks!  Every Sabal is different.  Sabal maritima struggle even in 8b so they are not all tough as nails, but by and large as a genus they are.

Another example of this whole story is look at the sabal antillensis and lougheediana.  No one had any clue these were two wildly distinct species and they are but one island a part.  Research is always changing, and what we find/understand is always changing so to just go by what was originally proposed or discovered without an understanding of things always changing is ludicrous.

[Allen]

2 hours ago, Sabal King said:

I will post fruit/seed sizes when I can.  The ID game is difficult in Sabals for a variety of reasons.  The original seeds for this palm came from inge hoffman on a seed collecting trip with the IPS decades ago.  Joe had received these seeds and has grown them in Augusta, GA ever since.   The seed size of ours is smaller than zona had noted but nevertheless comes from habitat collected "rosei" parents.

Here is parent palm of ours

This has been discussed at length with many folks who have been doing this for decades and decades, but the problem with judging everything on zona's work is challenging and incomplete.  His data was a point in time, and has not evolved since.  The area where he did hisi work, specifically with uresana is cartel country and no one goes back to continue his work so to say what he found decades ago is gosepl, concrete, and will not change is silly.  If you read the monograph the population he studied was very small so the sample size is not large at all.

Again.. It's a Sabal rosei until something convincingly proves us all otherwise.  There are many examples of this including the Sabal domingensis (Valdosta, GA) is another great example.  Everyone has a domingensis, everyone is certain there is a domingensis, and even more certain someone elses' is not.

Until someone goes back and picks up with zona left off it is an amazing foundation, but incomplete and still just a starting point with so much yet to learn with our beloved Sabals.

I don't want to get into a forever back and forth on it but out of all of your palms this one especially stands out as not having characteristics you would expect at this size.   Here is what I see IMO at this size,

rosei Fruit 15.3-22.4 mm in diameter, (You are saying your palm's fruit is much smaller which is concerning)

rosei strongly costapalmate - Your palm does not seem to be strongly costapalmate although this develops more as the palm ages. I would expect the fronds to look more like this, https://palmpedia.net/wiki/File:20081215_6677.jpg

rosei is filiferous - Your palm has more fibers than minor but not what you'd expect from a strongly costapalmate frond at this age, it's not even as much as palmettto at the size you have

rosei segments 60-80 per leaf - The parent has many fronds so is definitely not a minor but I can't tell more from photo, it doesn't seem to have the strong costapalmate fronds which is one of the things that gets this segment count up to 80.  I would expect the fronds to look more like this, https://palmpedia.net/wiki/File:20081215_6677.jpg

Inflorescence - Your palm is behaving more like brazoriensis in this manner since flowering at younger age

Trunk - I'm not sure why at this size your palm is not pushing up more in a vertical manner.  At this size it should show that more, not to say it is not going to trunk but most trunking sabals have pushed upward more at this age. 

Segment connotation - short and more minor like in your palm

petiole length - A trunking sabal should have taller petioles reaching up like this pic, https://palmpedia.net/wiki/File:Sabal_rosei100_0214.jpg

Zona as you mentioned

Slender palm to ca. 15m tall; trunk 15-30 em DBH, gray, smooth. Leaves 10 30, evenly green, strongly costapalmate, filiferous; petioles 1.8-2.4 em wide, 1-2 m long; hastula acute, 5.1-7.0 em long, glabrescent (but often with lepidote pu bescence on adaxial surface of midveins), margin of hastula flat and undulate, occasionally revolute, involute, or erect; segments 60-80 per leaf, connate for ca. 25% of their length, middle segment 55-110 em long, 2.3-4.3 em wide, 0.2-0.3 mm thick, transverse commissures short and inconspicuous (rarely conspicuous), apex bifurcate for 30-40 em (rarely undivided). Inflorescence arcuate-cemuate with 3 orders of branching, equalling the leaves in length, sheathing tubular bracts glabrous, rachillae 8-23 per branchlet, 0.6-1.3 mm in diameter, 7.5-16 em long, often curling slightly upon drying, with 5-7 flowers per em. Flower 4.2-5.9 mm VOLUME 12, NUMBER 4 653 long; calyx urceolate-cupulate, strongly costate when dry, 1.9-2.0 mm long, 1. 7 1.9 mm wide, sinuses 0.5-0.8 mm deep; petals obovate, noncostate when dry, membranous, 3. 7-4.8 mm long, 1.8-2.5 mm wide; stamens spreading, filaments 3.3-4.5 mm long, adnate to the corolla for ca. 1.2 mm, anthers ca. 1.6 mm long and 0.8 mm wide; gynoecium 3.3-3.8 mm long, ovary 0.9-1.1 mm high, 0.9-1.1 mm in diameter. Fruit oblate spheroidal, greenish brown-black, with a medium to thick pericarp, 15.3-22.4 mm in diameter, 13.5-20.1 mm high; seed strongly oblate concave, 10.0-15.5 mm in diameter, 6.4-8.7 mm high; embryo equatorial or supraequatorial. (Fig. 7C, 9E, 12D.)

 

[Harry’s Palms]

I live in an area that Sabal aren’t as popular as they should be . Nurseries certainly don’t carry them . I was gifted a Sabal Riverside (?) many years ago that my mentor grew from seed . It was just a small strap leaf plant and I immediately planted it on my south facing hill in full sun . It took over 20 years but now it is a beautiful , large tree . I wish I had a few more. Then , a year or so ago , I was lucky enough to get my hands on a Mauritiformis . I planted it on the same hill not far from its cousin . Evidently gophers really like that species and made a meal of it right after it was acclimated. Harry

[Chester B]

The palm from the original poster ended up being mine.  It is one tough palm.  We had the a winter bomb cyclone in 2023 with hurricane force winds and I woke up in the morning and the shelter had blown off and temps were 19F.  No damage at all.  Mind you this in Pacific Northwest 19F so its much tougher on plants than it sounds.  19F here in Houston is a cakewalk compared to 19F there.

January 2024 I ended up moving and a very bad arctic blast hit a couple days after we left.  I know the new owners are not gardeners and didn't protect anything.  They may have not even been moved in yet and the palm survived and appears to have suffered no damage.  I looked up the weather for that time period and it was colder than anything I ever experienced living there.  Looks like about 120 consecutive hours below freezing and I never saw 14F  in all my years living there.  This is the sort of cold spell that can damage or even kill Trachys up there.

Jan 12 - 42F, 21F

Jan 13 - 20F, 14F

Jan 14, 22F,  16F'

Jan 15 - 27F, 21F

Jan 16, 25F, 19F

Jan 17 - 35F, 23F

[Las Palmas Norte]

I recall seeing this S. rosei here (Salt Spring Island, British Columbia) during a visit with Joe. The video is a few years old now. I suspect that it's growth is slowed by it's close proximity to the ocean.

 

 

[Chester B]

4 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

I recall seeing this S. rosei here (Salt Spring Island, British Columbia) during a visit with Joe. The video is a few years old now. I suspect that it's growth is slowed by it's close proximity to the ocean.

 

 

That may actually be a rosei/uresana hybrid, as they occur together and hybridize.  The color is not right for rosei,  and I did confirm with him that it does have the bluish/silver cast in person.

[Tom GA]

So is this Sabal rosei? 

[Allen]

3 hours ago, Tom GA said:

So is this Sabal rosei? 

It certainly has the right look

[Allen]

10 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

I recall seeing this S. rosei here (Salt Spring Island, British Columbia) during a visit with Joe. The video is a few years old now. I suspect that it's growth is slowed by it's close proximity to the ocean.

 

 

That palm does not exhibit rosei traits 

[Las Palmas Norte]

3 hours ago, Allen said:

That palm does not exhibit rosei traits 

The problem with ID's in our region is a lack of exposure to the many species. They're not sold in nurseries and essentially grown from seed by enthusiasts who are at the mercy of them being correctly identified. To the inexperienced much like myself, Sabal pretty much all look the same. I don't see that changing anytime soon.