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Jubaea or Phoenix, which one is hardier?


MSX

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On 9/20/2021 at 6:46 PM, UK_Palms said:

Impossible. I refuse to accept that a CIDP would survive -25C combined with 200 hours below freezing, no matter how dry that cold is. Even Trachycarpus Fortunei will be killed dead where it stands from those temps. Less so due to the duration and more the extent of that extreme low. Trachy's often drop dead from -15 to -20C in Scandinavia. There's no way a CIDP would take -25C. I would say the absolute upper extremity for a mature specimen would be -20C and even that is severely pushing it. The CIDP that recovered from -18C and 250 hours below freezing in Dallas is the most reputable extreme low survivor in my opinion. The NM ones didn't take 250 hours below freezing and probably didn't take more than -18C either where they were situated.

A lot of those extreme low temperatures in New Mexico and Uzbekistan are probably being recorded at airport stations out in the open, when the palms are situated in the town/city centres with a noticeable UHI and close to buildings too. If the airport saw -22C, there's a good chance the washies in town only saw perhaps -18C maybe. Again once you start going over -20C you are looking at total palm killer conditions for just about any species out there. Especially combined with a week straight of sub zero conditions.

Trachycarpus 'Bulgaria' has supposedly survived -27C but if you subject them to a low of -20C and 200 hours below freezing, 99% of them will die. With -25C and 200 hours below freezing, I reckon you will be looking at 100% mortality rate on Trachycarpus 'Bulgaria', mostly due to them being a gimmick. Fortunei just will not tolerate that degree of cold. No palm will. I'm not even convinced Sabal minors would take that. I get that we are talking about a dry cold here, but if they were really that hardy in general, I think there would be CIDP's and Washies growing in the Scottish Highlands. Which there obviously isn't. The UK in general is relatively mild and not overly wet, outside of the western coasts. Yet CIDP and Washies will not grow in Scotland. 

Speaking of the temperatures in Alamogordo that you claim are "impossible".  You referenced the -10f at the airport. I did not reference that.  

The reason I did not reference that locale is because the temperatures were colder as one got closer to the Sacramento mountains. The CIDP's referenced are closer to the mountain than your airport temperature, therefore, most undoubtedly colder than the airport temperature, and proven by the NWS data. 

I referenced -10f as it was the warmest around Alamogordo, and therefore removing any doubt what these palms undoubtedly saw temperature wise. 

These most undoubtedly saw lower than -10f.  Believe it or not.

Now you know the truth at over 4300'.

One other side note, those low temps were also with high winds. 

Heck, multiple Washingtonia survived two back to back nights of -11f a bit further north. 

And one night in Alamogordo.

 

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On 12/7/2021 at 10:00 AM, ahosey01 said:

Having lived in the desert for years I'm not as unconvinced as you.

-18C in Dallas would come with like 30-50% humidity.  -25C in Alamogordo would be near-zero humidity.  Also, in the desert the lows are often extremely brief and generally precede daytime highs (at least) above freezing.  In the winter here in Wickenburg, for example, 50F+ temp swings are not uncommon.  I have hit 27F in the morning and bounced back to 81F in the afternoon on dozens of days in the last two years alone.  In the examples where the ambient air temp never went above 0C (32F), we can be fairly certain that the strength of the desert sun raised surface temps (i.e. the temp of the palm) to at least above 0C (32F) during the day.  Most Cupressus sempervirens, which are clearly toasted in that street view capture, are good to 5F or slightly below with some damage, but not getting completely fried like that.

Separately, it would be hard to suggest that Alamogordo has any meaningful UHI effect.  The town is extremely small and sits in a bowl at the base of desert mountains - and out here, temperature inversion (where lower elevations are colder) is common.

I think -25C is crazy but not wholesale impossible, specifically in the desert.

In NM, our arctic events our brought in from the east with high winds. I think Alamogordo also saw a high in the single digits or very near. Our palm killing cold events are different than the usual desert cold radiational events.

Humidity is meaningless unless you are comparing equal(or near) temperatures. Dew point is a better measurement of moisture in the air. That being said, the dew point can not be higher than the air temp. So a 3f in Dallas or a-10f in Alamogordo are both extremely dry,  or anywhere else in the world for that matter.   

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On 12/7/2021 at 1:58 PM, UK_Palms said:

So Alamogordo actually saw -25C / -13F at sunrise with humidity levels of 84%. The idea of any palms surviving this, let alone CIDP's, seems crazy to me. I would expect total defoliation and probably death for Trachycarpus Fortunei even. Pretty much no palms are going to take that extent of cold. I don't want to sound ignorant, but I suspect the two CIDP's outside that restaurant in Alamogordo were either replaced 'like for like' after the freeze, or they were protected. I wouldn't be surprised if the owner cut all the fronds off, then wrapped them up thoroughly for a few days. There is no way they took -25C / -13F at such a small size, unprotected, and then came back okay. I would expect -15C / 5F to kill small CIDP's dead of that size, even in a dry, desert climate.

Are there any other palm survivors from Alamogordo? Any other species, or specimens whatsoever? I also have to question that temperature reading of -25C / -13F. Perhaps it was far higher than that, like say -15C / 5F...? I know it isn't the most reliable source, but Wikipedia has Alamogordo's record low as -20C / -4F set during 1962. That raises questions about how cold it really got there in 2011...? Las Cruces International Airport only went down to -18C / 0F on the 3rd Feb 2011 and had a high of -9C the day before that, so although still very cold, it does seem unlikely that Alamogordo would have seen -25C / -13F, but not impossible. It certainly raises more questions. I personally don't think it got anywhere near that cold, and if it did, those CIDP's must have been protected, surely!?

The temps are legit for Alamogordo. Las Cruces actually saw -5f. Both cities had Washingtonia, CIDP, trachy, med, sabal survivors. Even robusta.  And phx. Dact in Las Cruces. 

That were all defoliated.

Those "small" CIDP's in Alamo had quite the trunk mass.  That and solar radiation are key players here.  

And lest we forget, yes we are desert, but thos palms saw rain, freezing rain, and snow during this event. 

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On 12/8/2021 at 7:37 PM, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Pure robusta survived 2011. Northeast part of city too 

Screen Shot 2021-12-08 at 8.36.21 PM.png

Screen Shot 2021-12-08 at 8.36.41 PM.png

Most likely protected!

Sorry, being sarcastic.

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On 12/8/2021 at 11:25 PM, Collectorpalms said:

keep dreaming...flat central texas wont ever look the same in my lifetime. 30 years was a record.

typically in those high desert areas there is a temperature inversion where its warmer on the slopes. so those palms saw warmer temperatures than the airport. you can also get a warming downslope wind too. drought stress is another factor for washingtonia.

It was an abjective(wind) freeze. The inversion only happens during radiationial. events.

So, "not typical".

Incredible CIDP survival rate though.  Like nearly 100% in both El Paso and San Antonio.  Both of those really rewrite what was known about CIDP hardiness. 

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On 12/11/2021 at 1:36 PM, MSX said:

What about an acclimatisation factor and its role in the context of stunning hardiness of these palms?

University of Florida, Cold Damage on Palms: "the absolute temperature at which chilling injury occurs is less useful as a predictor of damage than the degree of cold acclimation a particular palm has experienced. For instance, a tropical palm acclimated to night temperatures of 70°F, but suddenly subjected to a single night of 45°F may experience some foliar necrosis  a result. However, if that same palm had experienced gradually decreasing temperatures over a period of weeks, it may not show any cold injury symptoms until exposed to temperatures in the low to middle 30°sF." This could be extrapolated to other more cold hardy palms as well.

The following charts from weatherspark.com show gradual decline in temperature before the extreme events... Alamo.jpg.6709d1c6a4fbacf884eafe04cb9ca737.jpgAlbq.jpg.2a58d70d5b803d04a51830581b1a0176.jpgTermz.jpg.22e86ddbaf58cc296771ad3a188ad33f.jpg

That is why Texas has such problems. Something about barbed wire fences and going from 85f to 20f in hours.  That does not happen here.  

More like 55f to 20f. More like a hibernation state.

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On 12/11/2021 at 1:36 PM, MSX said:

What about an acclimatisation factor and its role in the context of stunning hardiness of these palms?

University of Florida, Cold Damage on Palms: "the absolute temperature at which chilling injury occurs is less useful as a predictor of damage than the degree of cold acclimation a particular palm has experienced. For instance, a tropical palm acclimated to night temperatures of 70°F, but suddenly subjected to a single night of 45°F may experience some foliar necrosis  a result. However, if that same palm had experienced gradually decreasing temperatures over a period of weeks, it may not show any cold injury symptoms until exposed to temperatures in the low to middle 30°sF." This could be extrapolated to other more cold hardy palms as well.

The following charts from weatherspark.com show gradual decline in temperature before the extreme events... Alamo.jpg.6709d1c6a4fbacf884eafe04cb9ca737.jpgAlbq.jpg.2a58d70d5b803d04a51830581b1a0176.jpgTermz.jpg.22e86ddbaf58cc296771ad3a188ad33f.jpg

A major. MAJOR player in these parts and one of many reasons why results differ in Texas (not El Paso) and the SE US.  If one were to pull this data for 2021 Texas event, it becomes readily apparent.

I think of it as hibernation. Filifera has this trait and is why it has a history of surviving fire! 

And extreme cold too.

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Observation from my climate on Italian cypress vs CIDP.  Wet winters, and I'm in zone 8B.  Italian cypress are a set and forget type plant, they can take anything our climate can throw at them evidenced by how commonly they are used and the number of fully mature specimens around.  CIDP in 8B oregon won't survive without protection which could simply be overhead protection, I have not seen one anywhere around here.  When you head to the coast zone 9B no issues, zone 9A I suspect they will make it but don't know of any specimens.  

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So now we know CIDP can and have survived temperatures of -10f and probably lower.  Filifera too. 

Could these same palms survive a second night of nearly the same low temperatures?

They did in Alamogordo!

I am going to go out on a limb here and say any back to back night of -10f is not what I would term, "a short freeze" for ANY palm.

Now you know the rest of the story!

Or is this just too crazy?

alamogordo2011.jpg.2a6a991e9556ed46ab83aadd8e13ce4b.jpg

Edited by jwitt
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2 hours ago, Chester B said:

Observation from my climate on Italian cypress vs CIDP.  Wet winters, and I'm in zone 8B.  Italian cypress are a set and forget type plant, they can take anything our climate can throw at them evidenced by how commonly they are used and the number of fully mature specimens around.  CIDP in 8B oregon won't survive without protection which could simply be overhead protection, I have not seen one anywhere around here.  When you head to the coast zone 9B no issues, zone 9A I suspect they will make it but don't know of any specimens.  

The same could have been said for cypress in Alamogordo. 

Before the 2011 event, -4f was the all time low in Alamogordo (1962).  I see about the same temp in Portland in 1950.

118f in Portland was unthinkable not too long ago.  -10f is not a stretch.

 

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On 9/14/2022 at 9:36 AM, Chester B said:

Observation from my climate on Italian cypress vs CIDP.  Wet winters, and I'm in zone 8B.  Italian cypress are a set and forget type plant, they can take anything our climate can throw at them evidenced by how commonly they are used and the number of fully mature specimens around.  CIDP in 8B oregon won't survive without protection which could simply be overhead protection, I have not seen one anywhere around here.  When you head to the coast zone 9B no issues, zone 9A I suspect they will make it but don't know of any specimens.  

Yep! Everything you said are good observations.  Like some above have said it is difficult to compare "Hardiness" of one species to another because so many other factors determine survival.  I live at the coast in a zone 10a/9b within 100 yards of a year around cold ocean surf, months of cold foggy summer with months of warm sunny winter, oxymoron I know but "That's the Way".  Italian cypress won't grow here, they die of disease and same for tomatoes and peaches.

Climate plays a factor in hardiness of any plant, but there are many other factors such as diseases, soil, exposure, pollution and even other plants that grow nearby that spread diseases.  That being said, CIDP is more hardy than Jubaea.  CIDP is a date palm of desert ancestry whereas Jubaea is related to the Coconut Palm.  Jubaea gets its hardiness from its Mountain ancestry,  Deserts can get very cold but so do mountains each in their different ways.  I think there are many factors that people should consider in selecting plants to grow.  My biggest mistakes are trying to grow something that struggles year after year languishing all the way, but there is no fault in making a mistake or trying, this is how discovery is made.

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Well we just had a cold blast in December with several days barely above freezing with temperatures down to -6°C and 2 hours of -8°C in an oceanic wet-winter climate. Followed by a "heat"-wave with temperatures up to 21°C. Because of the warmth right after, the frost damage is already showing widely. I have spear pull on several small T. takils and princeps. A filibusta with some trunk on it completely burnt, a filifera with about 30 centimeteres (a foot?) of trunk with minor leaf damage (at least for now). And many more small damaged and also probably dead plants. The Washys didn't get protection. The Trachys did. I also have a small Phoenix canariensis and a theophrastii about the same size as well as a Butita odorata only a bit bigger. All of these three palms have been protected with 2 to 3 layers of frost cloth and a good amount of mulch. For now all three of them look completely flawless! They don't even show leaf damage! I can't believe it. I mean I'm still waiting till spring but these small supposedly less hardy palms are the only few things that look completely unfazed while most other plants show that they've been through something. And we had lots of rain just before and right after the freeze. It's balmy but also very rainy. In Feb. 2021 we had a freez that was even worse and I lost an unproteced Jubaea chilensis which was just starting to trunk right next to it sits a Phoenix theophrastii 'Gölköy' much smaller plant, made it through with only some minor leaf damage. I don't know what lows they've endured back then but I'd say at least -8°C and more than 1 week of wet frost without daytime heat up. I hope it will make it through this winter again, for now it still looks good. During that even a trunking Chamaerops humilis completely defoliated! For now I'm very surprised, if they don't show damage much further in the future. But I also had Phoenix canariensis in pots surviving morning dips down to -6°C in the past. OH AND I almost forgot during the last cold blast Dec. 22 I had an even smaller CIDP (first pinnate leaves) in a 11cm pot, next to the house completely frozen through... still looks good. No leaf damage now spear pull. The pot was solid!!!

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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14 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Well we just had a cold blast in December with several days barely above freezing with temperatures down to -6°C and 2 hours of -8°C in an oceanic wet-winter climate. Followed by a "heat"-wave with temperatures up to 21°C. Because of the warmth right after, the frost damage is already showing widely. I have spear pull on several small T. takils and princeps. A filibusta with some trunk on it completely burnt, a filifera with about 30 centimeteres (a foot?) of trunk with minor leaf damage (at least for now). And many more small damaged and also probably dead plants. The Washys didn't get protection. The Trachys did. I also have a small Phoenix canariensis and a theophrastii about the same size as well as a Butita odorata only a bit bigger. All of these three palms have been protected with 2 to 3 layers of frost cloth and a good amount of mulch. For now all three of them look completely flawless! They don't even show leaf damage! I can't believe it. I mean I'm still waiting till spring but these small supposedly less hardy palms are the only few things that look completely unfazed while most other plants show that they've been through something. And we had lots of rain just before and right after the freeze. It's balmy but also very rainy. In Feb. 2021 we had a freez that was even worse and I lost an unproteced Jubaea chilensis which was just starting to trunk right next to it sits a Phoenix theophrastii 'Gölköy' much smaller plant, made it through with only some minor leaf damage. I don't know what lows they've endured back then but I'd say at least -8°C and more than 1 week of wet frost without daytime heat up. I hope it will make it through this winter again, for now it still looks good. During that even a trunking Chamaerops humilis completely defoliated! For now I'm very surprised, if they don't show damage much further in the future. But I also had Phoenix canariensis in pots surviving morning dips down to -6°C in the past. OH AND I almost forgot during the last cold blast Dec. 22 I had an even smaller CIDP (first pinnate leaves) in a 11cm pot, next to the house completely frozen through... still looks good. No leaf damage now spear pull. The pot was solid!!!

In the last sentence I meant NO spear pull!

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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On 9/10/2021 at 11:59 AM, Chester B said:

Here we can grow Trachys, Butias, Jubaeas, Sabals and some Brahea but Washingtonia, Nannarrhops and Phoenix don't do well or die.  

I have dozens of P. canariensis seedlings that I raise in conetainer planters on my deck, plus a few dozen bigger ones in pots, and a handful planted in ground.  I've never protected any of them.  The seedlings are actually hardier than jubaea seedlings.

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In my climate it is Jubaea....B. capitata and even Chamaedorea radicalis shows better resistance to our winters then P. canarensies

Here are my 2 Jubaeas growing happily at my parents home since 2008

j.jpg

j2.jpg

Edited by kristof p
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23 hours ago, Fallen Munk said:

I have dozens of P. canariensis seedlings that I raise in conetainer planters on my deck, plus a few dozen bigger ones in pots, and a handful planted in ground.  I've never protected any of them.  The seedlings are actually hardier than jubaea seedlings.

Send some my way!  I have about a half dozen CIDP growing up. I bought them as strap leaf plants but they took a long time to get moving. Now they’re finally chugging away and gaining some size.

I have one larger one that’s pretty close to planting that I think originally came from you. 

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23 hours ago, kristof p said:

In my climate it is Jubaea....B. capitata and even Chamaedorea radicalis shows better resistance to our winters then P. canarensies

Here are my 2 Jubaeas growing happily at my parents home since 2008

j.jpg

j2.jpg

Do you protect your Jubaea and Butia ? Our climates are not so different I think but unprotected they die here in bad winters unprotected.  

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Phoenix canariensis do pretty well in freezes in London in the colder parts because obviously in central London they aren't ever going to get damaged cold freezes here are always dry so I'm sure that also helps slightly. Jubaea do pretty well here as well, but I've heard from other people that in their opinion phoenix canariensis is more hardy than jubaea. What it could be though is mature jubaea are more hardy than mature phoenix canariensis, but when they are young, young phoenix canariensis are more hardy than young jubaea.

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16 hours ago, Marco67 said:

Do you protect your Jubaea and Butia ? Our climates are not so different I think but unprotected they die here in bad winters unprotected.  

not anymore...I did cut all the leaves of my butia in februari 21 in a panick but temperatures did not went lower then -7/-8 so it would have been fine without protection....Jubaea seems to be bulletproof at this size. I also have a small Jubaea that has grown in the garden since 2007. This one came out of a seed I threw away in the garden...never saw any damage and never gave it any protection over the years and has survived many protected Phoenix palms...

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On 1/15/2023 at 10:00 AM, Chester B said:

Send some my way!  I have about a half dozen CIDP growing up. I bought them as strap leaf plants but they took a long time to get moving. Now they’re finally chugging away and gaining some size.

I have one larger one that’s pretty close to planting that I think originally came from you. 

Sure thing.  I've gotten seed from quite a few ebay sellers and most are not hardy enough unprotected.  I'm suspecting that most of those are hybrids of some sort.  But I got lucky with one seller, but I'm not sure which one it was!  The plants that are more cold hardy have smaller spikier fronds and grow a lot slower.  They are way more compact.  I've got about a half dozen in 5 gallon pots unprotected for the last three winters with no damage, even during the ice storms.  And those seedlings on my deck are all doing great as well.  The Jubaea seedlings about the same size all drowned.  I don't have very good luck with Jubaea seedlings at all.  I've had hundreds of them that just died.  I'm thinking they need a drier soil mix.  Our winters are just too wet.

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12 hours ago, Fallen Munk said:

Sure thing.  I've gotten seed from quite a few ebay sellers and most are not hardy enough unprotected.  I'm suspecting that most of those are hybrids of some sort.  But I got lucky with one seller, but I'm not sure which one it was!  The plants that are more cold hardy have smaller spikier fronds and grow a lot slower.  They are way more compact.  I've got about a half dozen in 5 gallon pots unprotected for the last three winters with no damage, even during the ice storms.  And those seedlings on my deck are all doing great as well.  The Jubaea seedlings about the same size all drowned.  I don't have very good luck with Jubaea seedlings at all.  I've had hundreds of them that just died.  I'm thinking they need a drier soil mix.  Our winters are just too wet.

Jubaea seedlings like to be kept pretty dry.  If you water them too much they start to send up weak yellow spears.  At least that's what I'm finding.  I have 3 left from my last batch and they are slow.

Interesting about the CIDP.  Here's pics of the one I have that I think was from you.  The floppier older frond were from it growing inside and the two newest were from being outside.  I have left it on my porch to overwinter.

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Edited by Chester B
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On 1/17/2023 at 10:01 AM, Chester B said:

Interesting about the CIDP.  Here's pics of the one I have that I think was from you. 

That looks like one of the suspected hybrids.  All of mine with the looser fronds like that have perished including this one next to my front deck.  that last cold snap was just too much for it and it's now black.  The ones with the tighter fronds all look fine.

20221119_150525.jpg.2b34580df67db616b4854a91fb001328.jpg

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40 minutes ago, Fallen Munk said:

That looks like one of the suspected hybrids.  All of mine with the looser fronds like that have perished including this one next to my front deck.  that last cold snap was just too much for it and it's now black.  The ones with the tighter fronds all look fine.

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Ah that sucks.  I'm into palms that actually have a chance of surviving outside.  I do have some smaller ones that I'm growing out but they are awfully slow and a whole lot smaller so hopefully they will be pure canariensis.

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3 hours ago, Chester B said:

Ah that sucks.  I'm into palms that actually have a chance of surviving outside.  I do have some smaller ones that I'm growing out but they are awfully slow and a whole lot smaller so hopefully they will be pure canariensis.

Yeah, I'm finding that it's a crap shoot when you order seed from ebay.  These last two winters I've done no protecting, so they either make it or they don't.  I've lost quite a few but I do have some great survivors.  Interestingly enough, they are also the slowest growers.  

As far as Jubaea go, once I can get them to pinnate, they are way hardier than the canariensis.  I'm hoping my largest Jubaea in the front yard will show some signs of getting close to trunking this year.  It's about six feet tall at the highest frond tip.    And in the backyard, my three year old Yatay X Jubaea is now bigger than my 16 year old Jubaea.  Crazy!  The reverse cross is a bit slower but speeding up now that I feed it beer, haha.  I use my home brew yeast and trub waste as fertilizer.

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1 hour ago, Fallen Munk said:

And in the backyard, my three year old Yatay X Jubaea is now bigger than my 16 year old Jubaea.  Crazy!

Watch the size of each new frond on the Jubaea, when you notice a size incease in each new leaf, the Jubaea in three years will make the Yatay look like a baby.  Also watch the girth at the base of the Jubaea next to the soil, it starts getting fat at same time the new leafs get substantially bigger and will sometimes show roots as it lifts up, this is when it really begins to gain weight.  As the trunk gains weight it will grow verticle and some of the old cut leaf stubs will persist and hang on, it is best to just leave the unsightly stubs until they can be pulled of easily, this to avoid damaging the trunk.   Any open wound in a Jubaea trunk is subject to fungus or other pests getting in.  If there are any open wounds quickly patch them, I use the spray tar patch. 

After about three to four years of trunk growing most if not all the old stubs will come off and the lowest uncut leaves will turn brown during summer and fall off clean from the trunk, leaving the trunk smoth and beautiful.  In colder climates some of the leaf stubs are persistent and can hang on for years, hence the different look between the Roseburg Jubaea and those in Brookings.  However as the Jubaea in both these locations get older, they will look more alike with smooth trunks.

Used wort and yeast waist from home brew is like candy to Palms.  I dumped most of my wine leas from off the bottom of the primary fermenter for couple years when my Jubaea where 20 years old, and after that they started into trunk stage.  I did that for several years until my wife complained about all the fruit flies and looking ugly, so I now lay the old used yeast and the cover with some soil.

Edited by Banana Belt
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1 hour ago, Fallen Munk said:

Yeah, I'm finding that it's a crap shoot when you order seed from ebay.  These last two winters I've done no protecting, so they either make it or they don't.  I've lost quite a few but I do have some great survivors.  Interestingly enough, they are also the slowest growers.  

As far as Jubaea go, once I can get them to pinnate, they are way hardier than the canariensis.  I'm hoping my largest Jubaea in the front yard will show some signs of getting close to trunking this year.  It's about six feet tall at the highest frond tip.    And in the backyard, my three year old Yatay X Jubaea is now bigger than my 16 year old Jubaea.  Crazy!  The reverse cross is a bit slower but speeding up now that I feed it beer, haha.  I use my home brew yeast and trub waste as fertilizer.

You'll have to post some update photos.

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2 hours ago, Banana Belt said:

Used wort and yeast waist from home brew is like candy to Palms.  I dumped most of my wine leas from off the bottom of the primary fermenter for couple years when my Jubaea where 20 years old, and after that they started into trunk stage. 

I was wondering if anybody else discovered that.  The two hybrids I have were totally different sizes so I started giving the smaller runty looking one the trub and yeast.  It has almost caught up to the bigger one in less than one year.

Edited by Fallen Munk
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2 hours ago, Chester B said:

You'll have to post some update photos.

I'll wait until spring.  I have to move the Yatay X Jubaea.  I decided to build a patio cover and it's in the way.   It's already borderline bigger than I want to move because I'm afraid to damage it or set it back.

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2 hours ago, Banana Belt said:

Watch the size of each new frond on the Jubaea, when you notice a size incease in each new leaf, the Jubaea in three years will make the Yatay look like a baby. 

I'm hoping you are right!  My front yard Jubaea is almost 6 feet to the tip of the tallest frond.  I am really hoping to see signs of trunking by 2025.  It was real small when I planted it in 2020.  Here is what it looked like in spring of 2020.  Cute little thing.  I think 2023 will be a big year for growth.

Jubaea2020.jpg

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1 hour ago, Fallen Munk said:

I was wondering if anybody else discovered that.  The two hybrids I have were totally different sizes so I started giving the smaller runty looking one the trub and yeast.  It has almost caught up to the bigger one in less than one year.

I make between 20 and 40 gallons of wine per year from fruit I grow, mostly Feijoa.  During the 2010 and 2013 the Jubaea on the left got all of the leas and it outpaced the Jubaea on the right.  Today the left Jubaea is twice the size of its smaller neighbor but they are now growing at same rate after I stopped the ferilizer.  Now I use the fermented leas on mostly my garden for vegetable plants.

A distiller in Charleston told me about the used wort and leas off fermenting and how it is super fertilizer.

1486378874_2022Oct.thumb.JPG.d7cb2335d25ac204edd5c632fabe1f7e.JPG.0ec1e0c3344d5d9e2a307a57afd043e7.JPG

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  • 1 month later...
5 hours ago, MSX said:

Spring cleanup continues

NMAJAN23.jpg.c52389b8dfed1dfbf27d00b500722ed1.jpg

IMG_20230206_110923.jpg.871f70da1c5066279b6fb10a926f7c49.jpg

IMG_20230214_163545.thumb.jpg.8fea6c5fa0fd7c5be7cb5dca3adb92a8.jpg

it was a nice palm and a fast grower too, but it didn't make it

PHX1.thumb.jpg.d3abc7bf22f1ef46324f07c03d0c8443.jpg

DSCN9874.thumb.jpg.d1705fa0cfcb610470b89ccfa0398465.jpg

It's sad but I'm not surprised the temperatures you just showed there are pretty brutal even for way hardier palms.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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5 hours ago, MSX said:

Spring cleanup continues

NMAJAN23.jpg.c52389b8dfed1dfbf27d00b500722ed1.jpg

IMG_20230206_110923.jpg.871f70da1c5066279b6fb10a926f7c49.jpg

IMG_20230214_163545.thumb.jpg.8fea6c5fa0fd7c5be7cb5dca3adb92a8.jpg

it was a nice palm and a fast grower too, but it didn't make it

PHX1.thumb.jpg.d3abc7bf22f1ef46324f07c03d0c8443.jpg

DSCN9874.thumb.jpg.d1705fa0cfcb610470b89ccfa0398465.jpg

Oh and why is there sap coming out? I've never seen this before. Is it because of damaged cells?

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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17 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

It's sad but I'm not surprised the temperatures you just showed there are pretty brutal even for way hardier palms.

Thanks yeah it is sad and discouraging because it was actually protected during the extreme lows, its trunk was wrapped in mineral wool, it failed even with protection.

  

17 hours ago, Hortulanus said:

Oh and why is there sap coming out? I've never seen this before. Is it because of damaged cells?

Damaged cells, I guess protection added to the failure - Protection that kills!

 

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3 hours ago, MSX said:

Thanks yeah it is sad and discouraging because it was actually protected during the extreme lows, its trunk was wrapped in mineral wool, it failed even with protection.

  

Damaged cells, I guess protection added to the failure - Protection that kills!

 

Letting things stay wrapped for too long can harm a palm in general. Especially when they're tied together. But in your case it might just have been the prolonged extreme freeze. This creeps into everything.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/26/2022 at 9:53 PM, MSX said:

Hello and thanks for your input

Well, that's very interesting to hear that the cocosoids outperformed a bullet-proof Windmill

yes and two Phoenix theophrastii just died this winter (which is not yet over) maybe a not well adapted provenience.

I guess that due to climate change the summer are dryer and hotter which benefits Jubaea.

If seedlings survive they have a better chance to withstand worse weather conditions due to adaptation and selection.

I will post some pictures next time here asap.

Some years ago I analyzed the genus Trachycarpus and related palms as topic of my thesis.

https://docplayer.org/67473693-Molekularsystematische-studien-in-der-subtribus-thrinacinae-mit-besonderer-beruecksichtigung-der-gattung-trachycarpus-h-wendl.html

Last year I was in Madagascar and found seeds from cultivated plants the highlands there, if I can grow them I will sell and all the money goes to the poor people there.

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Left seedlings of Phoenix dactylifera and theoprasti and Juabea chilensis in the unheated greenhouse this winter. The Phoenix seedlings are just 1 year old and quite small while the Jubaea are already 3 year old probably. Weird thing, all Phoenix dont show any damage after a few night of -6°C while the Jubaea are completely crisp 1 out 2 even had spear pull. 

Jubaea seem super sensitive when small...

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I've also had the experience with small Phoenix dactylifera, canariensis and theophrastii being hardier than Jubaea chilensis sometimes. Yet long term I've only seen Jubaeas growing in my area. The big ones seem pretty hardy. Surviving the worst winters in the past as well. I lost a small P. theophrastii 'Golkoy' this year in a well protected dry spot next to the house (at least it spear pulled), even though it made it through the much tougher cold blast of February 2021. In that winter I lost a small Jubaea close to it. But could have been also the unsually cold spring and the fact that the plant was a rescued plant I got back into thriving. On the other hand a normal P. thephrastii even a bit smaller in the middle of my garden seems to have survived without much damage (yet to be proven in hotter months) this year.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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