in trouble?

[Cajunjimbo]

I don't know much about palms but this one has been by our pool for about 7 years.  For several years I thought it wasn't quite straight but it wasn't off by much.  Recently the 'lean' appears to be more pronounced and it also looks like the new growth isn't coming up as vigorous as it used to.  I'm not sure if this is something I should be worried about or not.  Any input is appreciated!

[Merlyn]

It's hard to judge exactly what's going on, but I would say that it is in trouble.  A healthy Butia (Pindo) should hold a full crown of 10-20 fronds.  Yours looks like fronds are dying off prematurely, and the trunk diameter is very small for a Butia.  And the new frond is opening up extremely short, trying to open inside the trunk.  I don't see any signs of a particular disease in the photos, so here's a few guesses:

• In one photo there is a seed pod.  If this opened up and produced marble-sized fruit then that's a good sign.  If it aborted the seeds that's a sign the palm is in trouble.
• The mulch around the base makes it look like the palm is planted too high.  This causes poor root development and might contribute to the poor health and lack of good fronds.  Pushing back the mulch and "mounding" dirt around the base may help.  If your palm's base is "air girdled" then it will not be stable, similar to what you mentioned above.  The best article I've found on planting depth is this one: http://www.marriedtoplants.com/palms/palm-tree-growing-tips-mounding/
• Palms don't like chlorine, and definitely don't like the chemicals sometimes used to clean pool decks.  A Butia is totally fine in the spot you have it, just avoid splashing pool water on it and don't use chemicals to clean the deck.  A regular pressure washer is fine, just don't add bleach or algae killers to the mix.

My best guess is that the "root cause" of poor health is just being planted a bit too high.  If you brush away a bit of the mulch around the base, you may find that it's being supported by only a couple of roots.  If you post some photos here, hopefully others can offer suggestions.  Just try to rotate them before posting! 

[Cajunjimbo]

Merlyn,  here are a couple pictures of the base where I pulled away the mulch.  

[Merlyn]

  On 9/11/2021 at 7:01 PM, Cajunjimbo said:

Merlyn,  here are a couple pictures of the base where I pulled away the mulch. 

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Sorry, I saw the pictures on my phone and forgot to go back and reply!  My guess is...planted too high.  If I am looking at the photos correctly, the "root initiation zone" is higher than the edging in the background by 2-3 inches?  So the palm is attempting to grow roots out from the base directly into dry mulch instead of soil.  If the roots don't see moisture as they start growing they'll stop.  I *think* in your case the solution would be to mix up some sand/topsoil mix and "mound" the area around the base, similar to the photos in the link I shared earlier.  You don't want to cover up the bases of the old leaves, but make sure you get dirt in and around where the roots are growing out.  Spray a bit with a hose to wash it in place, then top with your previous mulch to keep it from washing away in rainstorms. 

Since it's already kind of loose, you may want to hammer a stake into the ground on either side and tie it with rope.  I've done that one several palms that needed stability help.  Pindos are slow to grow new roots, so you may need to stake it for up to a year.

Hopefully some other folks here can offer other ideas, I'd hate to be the only person with a guess...and then be wrong! 

[freakypalmguy]

I think Merlyn is spot on, do exactly as he has instructed, also when you do put the mulch back around it over the mounded soil, I wouldn’t go too heavy, I think a palm still needs to “breath”.  Also, Like Merlyn mentioned, don’t go above the lowest leaf bases, you can also kill a palm by burying it too deep, ask me how I know
 

I’ve straightened a few leaners, by just packing in more of the mounding soil in on the low side,  on a few I installed a crude brace made from a couple 2x4’s for support, then mounded the soil and left the brace for a few months until it feels stable.

 

 

[Cajunjimbo]

Thanks guys.  I added soil around the base but maybe I was to late or something else is going on?  Here's an updated picture of the spear.  It has now died?  If you look at the original picture at the top of this post from a couple weeks ago, the shade of green wasn't the best, but it was still green.  Thoughts?

[JLM]

  On 9/22/2021 at 9:37 PM, Cajunjimbo said:

Thanks guys.  I added soil around the base but maybe I was to late or something else is going on?  Here's an updated picture of the spear.  It has now died?  If you look at the original picture at the top of this post from a couple weeks ago, the shade of green wasn't the best, but it was still green.  Thoughts?

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Ouch...
Try pulling on the spear and see if it comes out. If it does, then we have bigger problems.
If it pulls out, really the only thing you can do is pour H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) in the hole where the spear was, let it fizz, then dry the leftover water out of the hole. Hoping for the best with your palm!

[Cajunjimbo]

I pulled on it and it doesn't move.  Hope that's a good sign?

[D Palm]

I have 4 Pindo palms, 1 was stunted like yours. Did not think much of it until it sent out brown spears. I poured systemic incescticide drench into the crown and some type of Beatles came out of the trunk. Waited six months…the crown started falling apart so I yanked it out of the ground by digging a trench below trunk and using my truck and a strap. I know have 3 Pindo palms. I also systemic insecticide drench and copper fungicide drench at the end of every winter each palm. 

[D Palm]

  On 9/23/2021 at 1:32 PM, Cajunjimbo said:

I pulled on it and it doesn't move.  Hope that's a good sign?

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Mine put out 4 brown spears consecutively.  None pulled. See above post.

[Cajunjimbo]

  On 9/24/2021 at 4:55 AM, D Palm said:

I have 4 Pindo palms, 1 was stunted like yours. Did not think much of it until it sent out brown spears. I poured systemic incescticide drench into the crown and some type of Beatles came out of the trunk. Waited six months…the crown started falling apart so I yanked it out of the ground by digging a trench below trunk and using my truck and a strap. I know have 3 Pindo palms. I also systemic insecticide drench and copper fungicide drench at the end of every winter each palm. 

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That's not encouraging....

[Merlyn]

  On 9/24/2021 at 4:55 AM, D Palm said:

I poured systemic incescticide drench into the crown and some type of Beatles came out of the trunk.

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That's a good point.  With just a loose base and prematurely dying fronds I'd just guess "planted too high."  With brown new spears there's something else going on.  It may have some palm weevils in the heart.  A pour of systemic insecticide in the crown/around the base might kill the bugs, if there are any.  You could use Bayer Tree and Shrub (contains Imadicloprid) as a systemic, and Malathion or Acephate as a surface treatment.  Acephate is partially systemic, so might make an ok crown drench too.

As JLM said, a fungal infection will show up as bubbling if you pour some regular household 3% hydrogen peroxide in the crown.  You might have to take some scissors and snip off some of the hairy stuff that's in the way of seeing down there.  If you get a whole bunch of bubbles then there's a fungal infection in the crown.  Daconil + hydrogen peroxide in the crown is a good start, as are Captan and Mancozeb.  A systemic like Banrot or either of the ingredients thiophanate-methyl and triadizole will also help.  Copper-based fungicides are good on surface infections too.

[Merlyn]

Another thing I didn't think about before...have you seen any small shelf-like fungal conks on the lower part of the trunk?  Ganoderma kills palms in a similar way, and is invariably fatal.  If you've seen the things shown in figure 3 or 4 below, then dig up the palm and trash it, and don't plant another palm in the same spot.  Ganoderma will live in the soil there for years:

http://idtools.org/id/palms/symptoms/factsheet.php?name=Ganoderma+Butt+Rot

[Cajunjimbo]

Merlyn, I haven't seen any of the fungals you mentioned.   I will test with hydrogen peroxide and follow the systemic insecticide treatment you describe.  thanks!

[Cajunjimbo]

  On 9/24/2021 at 2:22 PM, Merlyn said:

That's a good point.  With just a loose base and prematurely dying fronds I'd just guess "planted too high."  With brown new spears there's something else going on.  It may have some palm weevils in the heart.  A pour of systemic insecticide in the crown/around the base might kill the bugs, if there are any.  You could use Bayer Tree and Shrub (contains Imadicloprid) as a systemic, and Malathion or Acephate as a surface treatment.  Acephate is partially systemic, so might make an ok crown drench too.

As JLM said, a fungal infection will show up as bubbling if you pour some regular household 3% hydrogen peroxide in the crown.  You might have to take some scissors and snip off some of the hairy stuff that's in the way of seeing down there.  If you get a whole bunch of bubbles then there's a fungal infection in the crown.  Daconil + hydrogen peroxide in the crown is a good start, as are Captan and Mancozeb.  A systemic like Banrot or either of the ingredients thiophanate-methyl and triadizole will also help.  Copper-based fungicides are good on surface infections too.

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I tried pulling the spear again and it did pull out.  Poured hydrogen peroxide in the crown and got bubbles.  What else should I do?  Also, I have a 30’ Sylvester about 10 feet away.  Should I just give up and remove this pindo to protect the Sylvester from the fungus?    Thanks!!

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Cajunjimbo
More info

[D Palm]

Day 1: I would get a large watering can, mix copper fungicide as directed. Pour peroxide into crown and let it fizz. When it is almost done fizzing dump the copper fungicide solution down the crown. Do not supplement water at all. Do this once. Peroxide every other day until no more fizzing. Do the cooper fungicide treatment again in 3 weeks and no more. If doing it in excess can cause copper poisoning.
 

In the next 3-5 days get a systemic insecticide drench and use on every palm because if the injured palm attracts insects, your other palm(s) will need a defense. Hopefully, the troubled palm can absorb and kill any infestation. Also wouldn’t hurt to give other palms 1 dose of copper fungicide as a preventative. I use it on my peaches, citrus, palms…anything I do not want to die in humid Florida that is not native to the Deep South. Do not use systemic insecticide on any edibles unless labeled for such. Good Luck!

[Merlyn]

  On 9/24/2021 at 9:54 PM, Cajunjimbo said:

I tried pulling the spear again and it did pull out.  Poured hydrogen peroxide in the crown and got bubbles.  What else should I do?  Also, I have a 30’ Sylvester about 10 feet away.  Should I just give up and remove this pindo to protect the Sylvester from the fungus?    Thanks!!

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D Palm's suggestions sound good to me!  I assume that the pulled spear was mushy and rotten at the bottom, and smelled like a sewer?  If so then it's a bud rot of some type, frequently caused by Phytophthora fungus.  Usually the spear goes first, which is why I guessed at the root stability issue first.  IF the based of the spear was still white and did not smell like fungal rot, then it might be a bug/beetle chewing on the palm heart.  Here is an info page on bud rot:

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/PP144

As they noted in the above page, *usually* it is Phytophthora and it's isolated to just the bud of the palm.  If you cure that quickly, the palm survives and grows back normally.

For a copper fungicide, Home Depot and Lowe's usually carries a Bonide 32oz "ready to use" type, or concentrates.  Usually the label will say the active ingredient is something like Copper Octanoate or Copper Soap, etc.  Southern Ag also makes one they call "Liquid Copper."  If you can't find it locally, DoMyOwn pest control is a good source.

You can find Daconil at lots of stores and online, the 16oz concentrate is available ship-to-store on HD's website.  I buy it at Lowe's or my local Ace Hardware.  I've used that as a crown drench with hydrogen peroxide with good results.

The good news is that a crown rot is frequently curable.  If you are really concerned about the Sylvester and would just rather remove the Pindo, that's a decision up to you.  I have "edited" out young Christmas Palms (Adonidia Merrillii) when one of the triple trunk got a fungal rot that turned the trunk to mush.  With 262 palms in the ground in my lot, it wasn't worth the risk of spreading it from a common palm to one of my rare palms.  IF you decide to remove it, take it out as one chunk.  Use a lopper to chop off the fronds and then take a sharp pointed shovel and chop down just around the exposed roots.  You can get under the center quickly, it'll come out of the ground in about 5 minutes.  Do NOT chop it up with a chainsaw or otherwise slice into the center, that will just spread the fungal spores all over your yard.

[D Palm]

I agree with @Merlyn no saw or chopping. Mine was the same size as yours when I yanked it out of the ground with a pick up truck and strap. Trench shovel works well around the root base so your strap can get 1-2 feet below soil line. Hopefully it will come around though.  I yanked out my 7’ tall (no trunk yet) Royal Palm with a golf cart and strap 4 weeks ago. Dragged it across yard and replanted near house for better protection. Throwing up a new spear in a couple weeks time. Gets addictive yanking stuff out of the ground.

[Gonzer]

  On 9/24/2021 at 4:55 AM, D Palm said:

and some type of Beatles came out 

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Can't resist....John, Paul, George, or Ringo?

[D Palm]

  On 9/27/2021 at 12:32 PM, Gonzer said:

Can't resist....John, Paul, George, or Ringo?

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Beyond my age LOL.