Mono-Species Forest

[ahosey01]

Anyone have a property full of a ton of a single species?

Curious.

[palmsOrl]

I have seen mono-forests of Archontophoenix alexandrae on a couple of the Hawaiian islands.

[PalmatierMeg]

I worked for 17 years on a mitigation bank which removed invasive melaleuca, Brazilian pepper and Australian pines on a State island wildlife preserve then restored wetIands to their native existence. Melaleuca was the absolute worst. It choked out all other vegetation to form a one species mono-forest. Walking through that, I could hear nothing except the occasional breeze. It was sound of death - no birds, no animals.....

Melaleuca had to be cut down by hand, put through a chipper, blown into covered tractor trailers, then hauled miles to an incinerator. ASAP after cutting workers had to paint the stumps with herbicide garlon to stop new suckers. If you left the dead trees in place they dropped their seeds to start a new forest - they flowered 3-4 times per year and are major allergens. It you tried to burn them on site, they dropped all their seeds. The worst invasive tree I've ever seen. Australian pines aren't far behind.

[sonoranfans]

  On 9/7/2021 at 2:48 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

I worked for 17 years on a mitigation bank which removed invasive melaleuca, Brazilian pepper and Australian pines on a State island wildlife preserve then restored wetIands to their native existence. Melaleuca was the absolute worst. It choked out all other vegetation to form a one species mono-forest. Walking through that, I could hear nothing except the occasional breeze. It was sound of death - no birds, no animals.....

Melaleuca had to be cut down by hand, put through a chipper, blown into covered tractor trailers, then hauled miles to an incinerator. ASAP after cutting workers had to paint the stumps with herbicide garlon to stop new suckers. If you left the dead trees in place they dropped their seeds to start a new forest - they flowered 3-4 times per year and are major allergens. It you tried to burn them on site, they dropped all their seeds. The worst invasive tree I've ever seen. Australian pines aren't far behind.

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Metaleuca mulch is very popular now, $3 for 1.5 cubic ft of mulch.  Its a great substitute for cypress which is often bagged as mulch as well.  I have found metaleuca to be a great top mulch.  It wont float away, tends to lock in place preventing weeds, and helps save cypress trees which are our most flood tolerant tree.  Brazilian pepper has been a real invasive problem in my area, spread by birds it can pop up almost anywhere.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

  On 9/7/2021 at 2:48 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

I worked for 17 years on a mitigation bank which removed invasive melaleuca, Brazilian pepper and Australian pines on a State island wildlife preserve then restored wetIands to their native existence. Melaleuca was the absolute worst. It choked out all other vegetation to form a one species mono-forest. Walking through that, I could hear nothing except the occasional breeze. It was sound of death - no birds, no animals.....

Melaleuca had to be cut down by hand, put through a chipper, blown into covered tractor trailers, then hauled miles to an incinerator. ASAP after cutting workers had to paint the stumps with herbicide garlon to stop new suckers. If you left the dead trees in place they dropped their seeds to start a new forest - they flowered 3-4 times per year and are major allergens. It you tried to burn them on site, they dropped all their seeds. The worst invasive tree I've ever seen. Australian pines aren't far behind.

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Yeoman's work.   I cannot describe how much I ABHORE those trees, espeically Casuarina Equisetifolia (austrailian pine)   I'd love nothing more than to see them all forced to be taken down.    They are even in one part of my condo complex.  I'll never understand why Florida just doesn't outright BAN these and other horribly invasive species.   Ugh I cant stand them!  

[ahosey01]

  On 9/7/2021 at 4:23 PM, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Yeoman's work.   I cannot describe how much I ABHORE those trees, espeically Casuarina Equisetifolia (austrailian pine)   I'd love nothing more than to see them all forced to be taken down.    They are even in one part of my condo complex.  I'll never understand why Florida just doesn't outright BAN these and other horribly invasive species.   Ugh I cant stand them!  

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They get beautiful here in Arizona in riparian areas and don’t become invasive.  I have a hard time imagining this - although I know it to be true!!

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 9/7/2021 at 4:23 PM, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Yeoman's work.   I cannot describe how much I ABHORE those trees, espeically Casuarina Equisetifolia (austrailian pine)   I'd love nothing more than to see them all forced to be taken down.    They are even in one part of my condo complex.   Ugh I cant stand them!  

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Yep, even in CA where they aren't currently causing as much of the same issues as they have in FL. ( ...yet ) never was a big fan of Casuarina, any of them.. Or Melaleuca, or #*##* African Sumac, China Berry, and Brazilian Pepper.. Can still find those last 3 in some nurseries out there.  Anyone willfully selling them should be forced out of business.  Would Fountain Grass to that list as well..  Awful stuff.

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 9/7/2021 at 4:33 PM, ahosey01 said:

They get beautiful here in Arizona in riparian areas and don’t become invasive.  I have a hard time imagining this - although I know it to be true!!

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Not really, and there is a campaign to exterminate them here as well, thankfully..

[ahosey01]

  On 9/7/2021 at 4:34 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Not really, and there is a campaign to exterminate them here as well, thankfully..

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Where have you seen this?  The Hassayampa Preserve (owned by TNC) regards them as non-invasive and discourages their removal.  Same with Tamarix aphylla.

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 9/7/2021 at 4:35 PM, ahosey01 said:

Where have you seen this?  The Hassayampa Preserve (owned by TNC) regards them as non-invasive and discourages their removal.  Same with Tamarix aphylla.

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Been discussed among people i've met down south connected w/ the U of A and the AZNPS. Not a huge priority at this point compared w/ getting a handle on stuff like Buffel grass though.

[PalmatierMeg]

  On 9/7/2021 at 3:11 PM, sonoranfans said:

Metaleuca mulch is very popular now, $3 for 1.5 cubic ft of mulch.  Its a great substitute for cypress which is often bagged as mulch as well.  I have found metaleuca to be a great top mulch.  It wont float away, tends to lock in place preventing weeds, and helps save cypress trees which are our most flood tolerant tree.  Brazilian pepper has been a real invasive problem in my area, spread by birds it can pop up almost anywhere.

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The mulch is treated to kill all the seeds and make it usable. All the species I mentioned are Class I invasives in FL. They are forbidden to be sold anywhere in the State. No matter, as these are so well established they perpetuate themselves and have for decades. Class II invasives like queen palms are not forbidden but are vigorously discouraged, at least in SFL. Future Class II invasives could/should be Ptychosperma elegans, Heterospathe elata, Dypsis lutescens.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

  On 9/7/2021 at 5:29 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

The mulch is treated to kill all the seeds and make it usable. All the species I mentioned are Class I invasives in FL. They are forbidden to be sold anywhere in the State. No matter, as these are so well established they perpetuate themselves and have for decades. Class II invasives like queen palms are not forbidden but are vigorously discouraged, at least in SFL. Future Class II invasives could/should be Ptychosperma elegans, Heterospathe elata, Dypsis lutescens.

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I wish there were more programs for active removal of them.  Just letting the existing ones self perpetuate is terrible.    

As for your list of hopeful palms for class II invasive list,  I think I can gather the Ptychosperma. I remember when in S. FL Id see them coming up all over.  One was coming up between the fences of my friends and his neighbors yard and there were lots of them buried in shrubs etc.    Where I am at least, D. Lutescens does not seem invasive. I've never seen it growing wild in the bay area here, and I have only seen a marginal number of volunteers where they are planted.   I can't speak to H. Elata as I don't see many here. Maybe they are invasive in S. FL?    What I DO see here growing wild A TON are Washingtonia Robusta.  They are all over.  Forests,  Islands way out in the water,  all over cities, parking lots, sidewalk cracks, open fields, etc.  

[sonoranfans]

Here near bradenton we get the brazilian pepper and phoenix sp, most likely hybrids.  There is an irrigation drainge ditch behind my house that is chock full of phoenix hybrids and brazilian pepper.  I have seen no ptychosperma or dypsis growing in the woods or volunteers of anything else but sabal palmetto.  One day removing those phoenix will require a flamethrower, they are already impenetrable to all but small animals.   My concern is they will out compete the native sabals and serenoas.  I don't think a bulldozer will be able to get down in that ditch to dig them out.  

[ahosey01]

  On 9/7/2021 at 6:04 PM, sonoranfans said:

Here near bradenton we get the brazilian pepper and phoenix sp, most likely hybrids.  There is an irrigation drainge ditch behind my house that is chock full of phoenix hybrids and brazilian pepper.  I have seen no ptychosperma or dypsis growing in the woods or volunteers of anything else but sabal palmetto.  One day removing those phoenix will require a flamethrower, they are already impenetrable to all but small animals.   My concern is they will out compete the native sabals and serenoas.  I don't think a bulldozer will be able to get down in that ditch to dig them out.  

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I guess if something is going to outcompete something native I’d rather it be Phoenix than Tamarix ramossissima lol

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 9/7/2021 at 5:42 PM, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

I wish there were more programs for active removal of them.  Just letting the existing ones self perpetuate is terrible.    

As for your list of hopeful palms for class II invasive list,  I think I can gather the Ptychosperma. I remember when in S. FL Id see them coming up all over.  One was coming up between the fences of my friends and his neighbors yard and there were lots of them buried in shrubs etc.    Where I am at least, D. Lutescens does not seem invasive. I've never seen it growing wild in the bay area here, and I have only seen a marginal number of volunteers where they are planted.   I can't speak to H. Elata as I don't see many here. Maybe they are invasive in S. FL?    What I DO see here growing wild A TON are Washingtonia Robusta.  They are all over.  Forests,  Islands way out in the water,  all over cities, parking lots, sidewalk cracks, open fields, etc.  

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Excellent point

Guaranteed.. if city / state/ federal $$ were shifted to  important things,  like this,  you could get an army out into various places to ~at least ~ get control of many aggressive invasive plants/ trees etc.. Think about the annual Python roundup further south.. Why not place a high dollar bounty on Aus. Pines? / Brazilian Pepper? etc...  If, as a home/ land owner i knew i'd get paid to beat back these things, i'd be out there night and day slicing and dicing.. 

No way i'll ever believe the funds aren't there, or could be shifted / built to support such efforts..  Question comes down to priorities.. many of which are quite out of balance.  No one  needs   a new Football stadium every 10 / 20 years... I certainly won't put any of my tax $'s toward one if given the choice.  


As for invasives lists, noticed that both Washingtonia r. and Phoenix canariensis are listed on some groups lists in CA.. Unfortunately, both would be hard to completely eradicate. Washingtonia r. could also be considered " regionally native " since it naturally grows not too far south in Mexico.   Some people would throw temper tantrums for eons as well.. 

While i'm not a fan of them, at least Mexican fan palms evolved w/ the same general " equalizers " that would help keep their #'s in check in CA. as they do further south in habitat.  In a warming world, more of those equalizers will move north as well, ..kind of what is happening w/ the South American Palm Weevil.   Been native to Mexico, Central and South America for eons, haven't exterminated all the palms there.. When they come, things that eat them will follow.. How nature works..

What can be done is stopping the promotion and planting of newer plant options that are showing clear signs of aggressive reproductive behavior in similar climates..  Someone had mentioned that African Sumac was being planted in some newer projects in certain parts of San Diego county,  near the coast.. This is probably the worst possible " medium -sized "  tree option -anywhere-  someone could have chosen off a list.. Think Brazilian pepper is bad, just wait until you're dealing with this tree, lol..  I'd rip them out of the ground now if it were me.

Nurseries that continue to grow such things / landscape companies that plant such stuff ?  Show them that promoting such things has real world consequences..
 

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

  On 9/7/2021 at 6:45 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Excellent point

Guaranteed.. if city / state/ federal $$ were shifted to  important things,  like this,  you could get an army out into various places to ~at least ~ get control of many aggressive invasive plants/ trees etc.. Think about the annual Python roundup further south.. Why not place a high dollar bounty on Aus. Pines? / Brazilian Pepper? etc...  If, as a home/ land owner i knew i'd get paid to beat back these things, i'd be out there night and day slicing and dicing.. 

No way i'll ever believe the funds aren't there, or could be shifted / built to support such efforts..  Question comes down to priorities.. many of which are quite out of balance.  No one  needs   a new Football stadium every 10 / 20 years... I certainly won't put any of my tax $'s toward one if given the choice.  


As for invasives lists, noticed that both Washingtonia r. and Phoenix canariensis are listed on some groups lists in CA.. Unfortunately, both would be hard to completely eradicate. Washingtonia r. could also be considered " regionally native " since it naturally grows not too far south in Mexico.   Some people would throw temper tantrums for eons as well.. 

While i'm not a fan of them, at least Mexican fan palms evolved w/ the same general " equalizers " that would help keep their #'s in check in CA. as they do further south in habitat.  In a warming world, more of those equalizers will move north as well, ..kind of what is happening w/ the South American Palm Weevil.   Been native to Mexico, Central and South America for eons, haven't exterminated all the palms there.. When they come, things that eat them will follow.. How nature works..

What can be done is stopping the promotion and planting of newer plant options that are showing clear signs of aggressive reproductive behavior in similar climates..  Someone had mentioned that African Sumac was being planted in some newer projects in certain parts of San Diego county,  near the coast.. This is probably the worst possible " medium -sized "  tree option -anywhere-  someone could have chosen off a list.. Think Brazilian pepper is bad, just wait until you're dealing with this tree, lol..  I'd rip them out of the ground now if it were me.

Nurseries that continue to grow such things / landscape companies that plant such stuff ?  Show them that promoting such things has real world consequences..
 

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Things like those should be BANNED, and any homeowner, developer, etc using them, should be fined and forced to take them out.   

Fully agree about the money being there for control / eradication.  Its there, they just wont do it.     Oh, another palm I left  out was Phoenix Reclinata.  those things are pretty damn invasive here too. I see them all over as well and sometimes taking over large sections of entire fields.   When they grow wild like that and unchecked they form very dense thickets as all of the suckers get to live.    They dont look good at all either.    I love those palms, but they need to be kept in landscaping and kept tidy.   

[Tyrone]

  On 9/7/2021 at 2:48 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

I worked for 17 years on a mitigation bank which removed invasive melaleuca, Brazilian pepper and Australian pines on a State island wildlife preserve then restored wetIands to their native existence. Melaleuca was the absolute worst. It choked out all other vegetation to form a one species mono-forest. Walking through that, I could hear nothing except the occasional breeze. It was sound of death - no birds, no animals.....

Melaleuca had to be cut down by hand, put through a chipper, blown into covered tractor trailers, then hauled miles to an incinerator. ASAP after cutting workers had to paint the stumps with herbicide garlon to stop new suckers. If you left the dead trees in place they dropped their seeds to start a new forest - they flowered 3-4 times per year and are major allergens. It you tried to burn them on site, they dropped all their seeds. The worst invasive tree I've ever seen. Australian pines aren't far behind.

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Interesting. I can understand them becoming invasive in non native areas but here they bring the birds and wildlife. I’ve planted a few different species and some are native to my area and of course do well. I can’t imagine them repelling the wildlife. 

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 9/7/2021 at 10:14 PM, Tyrone said:

Interesting. I can understand them becoming invasive in non native areas but here they bring the birds and wildlife. I’ve planted a few different species and some are native to my area and of course do well. I can’t imagine them repelling the wildlife. 

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Different continent, entirely different ecosystems / wildlife that utilizes the resources of those particular ecosystems.. 

Even in CA. where tamer Melaleuca sp. are still seen in landscapes, European honey bees are about the only things that visit the flowers regularly.. Hummingbirds occasionally visit a few species.  Various Grevillea on the other hand can attract a lot of attention from them though.

[Johnny Palmseed]

  On 9/7/2021 at 10:14 PM, Tyrone said:

Interesting. I can understand them becoming invasive in non native areas but here they bring the birds and wildlife. I’ve planted a few different species and some are native to my area and of course do well. I can’t imagine them repelling the wildlife. 

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Things like these don’t necessarily repel wildlife, they just might not attract it. Local wildlife (wherever you are) has adapted to the local vegetation as a food source over many years. When you reduce or remove the preferred food, you do the same to the animals that eat it. Unfortunately in some cases, the locals enjoy the new food source too much and spread the seed to the detriment of native plants. I believe the Brazilian Pepper is one of those.

[WaianaeCrider]

  On 9/7/2021 at 1:26 PM, palmsOrl said:

I have seen mono-forests of Archontophoenix alexandrae on a couple of the Hawaiian islands.

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That means it's invasive.  Not good, but pretty.

[Tyrone]

  On 9/7/2021 at 1:26 PM, palmsOrl said:

I have seen mono-forests of Archontophoenix alexandrae on a couple of the Hawaiian islands.

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The best sort of “weed problem”. Would rather have that than wild oats, kikuyu grass, and Scotch thistles.