Best practice to keep Queen Palms verdant green?

[ExperimentalGrower]

How do you keep your Queen Palms verdant, green and lush? What’s the secret to keep them from yellowing out? I have dense adobe clay soil in Northern California.

[Tyrone]

From memory your clay soil is on the alkaline side of neutral. Correct me if I’m wrong. 

Just lots of fertiliser, high in iron, also manganese to prevent shrivel top, and of course lots of the wet stuff. 

 

[DoomsDave]

@ExperimentalGrower you are most likely blessed. You don’t have to say hallelujah.

Clay can be wonderful, if it’s amended. I have clay, and it rocks, for most palms including queens.

But amending is a lot of work. Hain’t gonna sugar coat that. The best way and the hardest, is on a grand scale digging and amending a large area, down a couple feet.

Mix in lots of dead stuff like leaves, grass clippings, nasty salads, small size plant material in general. Maybe a dead animal or two.

Do it right and you can just plant away and the plants will love you and your garden. 
 

[ExperimentalGrower]

54 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

From memory your clay soil is on the alkaline side of neutral. Correct me if I’m wrong. 

Just lots of fertiliser, high in iron, also manganese to prevent shrivel top, and of course lots of the wet stuff. 

 

Is there a product out there that is just basically micronutrients for palms?

[Jimhardy]

No dead animal stores here (unless you count Walmart) best to look on the highway.

[DoomsDave]

11 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

No dead animal stores here (unless you count Walmart) best to look on the highway.

Or freezer burned meat or stew that sat too long. 
 

Sometimes you find the odd road kill, too.

[Dartolution]

12 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Is there a product out there that is just basically micronutrients for palms?

Haha, this thread gave me a good laugh this morning. Thanks @DoomsDave, and @Jimhardy. Dead animals... you guys are nuts. (I have been known to bury the dead rat or two in the garden).

@ExperimentalGrower I've never had to look specifically for a micronutrient product for palms, but azomite immediately comes to mind. 

Though, I don't think it would be needed. Clay (depending on where you are in the world) is typically loaded with mineral nutrients, adding the organics to clay improves drainage, but thats not all. Organic material helps provide other essential nutrients (such as Boron for example), as well as aerate the clay and provide the roots with oxygen. If you incorporate plenty of organic materials in the forms suggested here (mulch, compost, manure, yard waste etc..), and use a palm specific fertilizer like PalmGain or equivalent, along with regular deep irrigation you shouldn't need to worry with micros. Queens love their water and nutrients. 

Also, keep in mind that adding loads of micronutrients can cause an imbalance and prevent the uptake of some macronutrients. Im sure someone here more adept at explaining that will chime in. 

 

 

[ExperimentalGrower]

On 8/7/2021 at 6:22 PM, DoomsDave said:

@ExperimentalGrower you are most likely blessed. You don’t have to say hallelujah.

Clay can be wonderful, if it’s amended. I have clay, and it rocks, for most palms including queens.

But amending is a lot of work. Hain’t gonna sugar coat that. The best way and the hardest, is on a grand scale digging and amending a large area, down a couple feet.

Mix in lots of dead stuff like leaves, grass clippings, nasty salads, small size plant material in general. Maybe a dead animal or two.

Do it right and you can just plant away and the plants will love you and your garden. 
 

Indeed, this is all confirming all the reading and research I’ve done. I have done almost exactly what you’ve described for the finished beds (pic of one) I’ve planted in. Using a product called “clod buster” that a local materials company sells- lava pebbles, lava fines, chix manure, compost, loam. At about 30-50% amendment. Also did a cover crop prior to amending, and a bag of top soil here and there and all the leaves I’ve been able to rake from the deciduous trees around the house. It’s done wonders so far. But this one damn Queen keeps yellowing out on me. Perhaps it’s just a minor issue given it’s a recent transplant (3 mo ago). And these aren’t new leaves. I got some Azomite today that I’m going to experiment with just to see… 

Also thinking about contacting the Oakland Zoo to see if they have any recently demised elephants I can access. Perfect for my “mounded beds”! lol

Come to think of it… the occasional whale does wash up on Ocean Beach……

[ExperimentalGrower]

11 hours ago, Dartolution said:

Haha, this thread gave me a good laugh this morning. Thanks @DoomsDave, and @Jimhardy. Dead animals... you guys are nuts. (I have been known to bury the dead rat or two in the garden).

@ExperimentalGrower I've never had to look specifically for a micronutrient product for palms, but azomite immediately comes to mind. 

Though, I don't think it would be needed. Clay (depending on where you are in the world) is typically loaded with mineral nutrients, adding the organics to clay improves drainage, but thats not all. Organic material helps provide other essential nutrients (such as Boron for example), as well as aerate the clay and provide the roots with oxygen. If you incorporate plenty of organic materials in the forms suggested here (mulch, compost, manure, yard waste etc..), and use a palm specific fertilizer like PalmGain or equivalent, along with regular deep irrigation you shouldn't need to worry with micros. Queens love their water and nutrients. 

Also, keep in mind that adding loads of micronutrients can cause an imbalance and prevent the uptake of some macronutrients. Im sure someone here more adept at explaining that will chime in. 

 

 

Coincidentally just nabbed a bag of azomite today. Gonna give it a shot but keep it light. All around great info. Been amending the hell out of this clay for the last 1.5 years pretty deep down and it’s definitely made a world of difference. Looking forward to fall when I can rake tons of leaves. Of all the amendments, leaves are the best! The worm activity in beds with leaves amended has just skyrocketed. It’s crazy.

[PalmatierMeg]

On 8/7/2021 at 10:04 PM, ExperimentalGrower said:

Is there a product out there that is just basically micronutrients for palms?

Look for Southern Ag Essential Minor Elements in granular form. It excludes the major elements (N, P, K) but has every minor element a palm needs. Use it as a supplement to a slow-release palm fertilizer. You may have to go online to get it as most nurseries and garden centers don't carry it. 

Queens are fertilizer and water hogs. Regular feedings and irrigation kept all mine bodacious until the wilt took them out.

[sonoranfans]

I grew these queens in arizona in heavy clay that was ammended.  The pH was 8 so I added sulfur pellets over the years.  Early on the tallest had frizzletop which can arise from Mn deficiency in high pH.  High Ph alsow causes yellowing via chlorosis as any pH >7.3 will tie up iron, at 8 its bad.  You can buy chelated iron or put some iron sulfate in humic acid and chelate it yourself.   I used MnS04 and then the sulfur to keep frizzletop at bay.

[sonoranfans]

My experience with growing nice queens in clay was it was huge hassle, and frizzletop takes a while to correct.  IN my sandy florida soil its much worse, never seen a nice one here, and IM sure all the extra fertilizer needed for them is environmentally abusive of our water shed.

[DoomsDave]

13 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Indeed, this is all confirming all the reading and research I’ve done. I have done almost exactly what you’ve described for the finished beds (pic of one) I’ve planted in. Using a product called “clod buster” that a local materials company sells- lava pebbles, lava fines, chix manure, compost, loam. At about 30-50% amendment. Also did a cover crop prior to amending, and a bag of top soil here and there and all the leaves I’ve been able to rake from the deciduous trees around the house. It’s done wonders so far. But this one damn Queen keeps yellowing out on me. Perhaps it’s just a minor issue given it’s a recent transplant (3 mo ago). And these aren’t new leaves. I got some Azomite today that I’m going to experiment with just to see… 

Also thinking about contacting the Oakland Zoo to see if they have any recently demised elephants I can access. Perfect for my “mounded beds”! lol

Come to think of it… the occasional whale does wash up on Ocean Beach……

Your garden looks great!

It'd be better if it was bigger, but time and space are major constraints, heaven only knows.

The palm at center is a Parajube, hope not a tor tor. If it is, it'll crowd out everything, including part of the house . . . . Lovely whatever it is!

Hmm. Wonder why your queen is yellowing? I've got volunteers from a tree that's been removed for five years, and they're still popping up green as ever. Maybe planning a revolt . . .

[ExperimentalGrower]

2 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I grew these queens in arizona in heavy clay that was ammended.  The pH was 8 so I added sulfur pellets over the years.  Early on the tallest had frizzletop which can arise from Mn deficiency in high pH.  High Ph alsow causes yellowing via chlorosis as any pH >7.3 will tie up iron, at 8 its bad.  You can buy chelated iron or put some iron sulfate in humic acid and chelate it yourself.   I used MnS04 and then the sulfur to keep frizzletop at bay.

Will the chelated iron drop the pH on its own? I’m chemistry stupid so please pardon my ignorance!

[ExperimentalGrower]

2 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Your garden looks great!

It'd be better if it was bigger, but time and space are major constraints, heaven only knows.

The palm at center is a Parajube, hope not a tor tor. If it is, it'll crowd out everything, including part of the house . . . . Lovely whatever it is!

Hmm. Wonder why your queen is yellowing? I've got volunteers from a tree that's been removed for five years, and they're still popping up green as ever. Maybe planning a revolt . . .

Thanks man! I appreciate it. Apologies, the pic was kind of misleading given the talk is about Queens. This is one section of the deeply amended beds I’m building around the yard. The Parajubaea is a sunkha. A torallyi in that spot would be intense, lol. Hoping the sunkha will stay more tame.  First pic is another amended bed just planted, yet to be mulched. The bigger palm is Butia x Lytocaryum weddelliana. Can’t really see it but a small Dypsis ambositrae is to the left right under it to take advantage of the protection from the B x LW. And there’s a few C. radicalis behind it. The second pic is unfortunately backlit so it’s really hard to make out detail. The Queen on the left just went in this past weekend. (For the canopy-scape) The one on the right was deep verdant green in the pot but has been continually fading, lighter and lighter. 

Yesterday I discovered what appear to be mites all over the leaflets. Looks like some webbing and that typical mottled yellowing from a mite attack. They appear to be everywhere. So now I’m thinking about how to treat a plant like this for mites. Ultimately this might be the cause for the issue I’m seeing. Eh…

 

[DoomsDave]

1 hour ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Thanks man! I appreciate it. Apologies, the pic was kind of misleading given the talk is about Queens. This is one section of the deeply amended beds I’m building around the yard. The Parajubaea is a sunkha. A torallyi in that spot would be intense, lol. Hoping the sunkha will stay more tame.  First pic is another amended bed just planted, yet to be mulched. The bigger palm is Butia x Lytocaryum weddelliana. Can’t really see it but a small Dypsis ambositrae is to the left right under it to take advantage of the protection from the B x LW. And there’s a few C. radicalis behind it. The second pic is unfortunately backlit so it’s really hard to make out detail. The Queen on the left just went in this past weekend. (For the canopy-scape) The one on the right was deep verdant green in the pot but has been continually fading, lighter and lighter. 

Yesterday I discovered what appear to be mites all over the leaflets. Looks like some webbing and that typical mottled yellowing from a mite attack. They appear to be everywhere. So now I’m thinking about how to treat a plant like this for mites. Ultimately this might be the cause for the issue I’m seeing. Eh…

 

Give the queens a bit of time. Based on what you said, they should grow fine, after they have a chance to see what a good daddy they now have. This is their season.

Hmm. Be advised that it's a little tight for that sunkha you have too. I've got one, and it's about 12 - 14" across the trunk. But better than a tor tor, for sure.

[sonoranfans]

1 hour ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Will the chelated iron drop the pH on its own? I’m chemistry stupid so please pardon my ignorance!

No, chelation just prevents iron from being deactivated(oxidized) so it is mostly bioavailable.  You would need to wet the whole root zone to deliver with chelates.  If you use humic with iron or chelated iron, you can get some iron in right away while the sulfur is a longer term correction in soil pH.  Mulching also pushes soil to acidic but it takes a long time, and 2 gallons of 17% humic is about what you get from 2 tons of mulch.  You will need alot of mulch to equal humic and even then its delivered too slowly as the mulch degrades.  But this is a pH buffer capacity problem, depends on the neutralization of acid by the soil.  If the soil is loaded with calcium, the neutralization might be so high you really can't correct it.  There are some natural soils out west that are calcium rich to a point that you cannot correct the pH to what you need.  My soil in AZ was construction clay, high iron(orange) so it didn't have really high calcium and it didn't have an issue with low iron, just low bioactive iron.  Humic acid will not appreciably effect the pH, except over a long term, its the main acid that ultimately comes out of mulch degradation, second most important is fulvic acid(its a shorter molecular chain acid).  These are weak acids, sulfur however allows generation of strong acid(H2SO4) a very little at a time as microbes degrade it and it reacts int he soil.  It can shift soil pH to a much greater degree.  Some would say add something fast like aluminum sufate but that also leads to H2SO4 production in water at a much higher level, it can burn roots.  This is why my approach is to use chelates/humic and then put the sulfur down every 4 months for 3 years.  Then you can check where you are but keep putting the sulfur down(maybe at 1/2 rate).

[ExperimentalGrower]

31 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Give the queens a bit of time. Based on what you said, they should grow fine, after they have a chance to see what a good daddy they now have. This is their season.

Hmm. Be advised that it's a little tight for that sunkha you have too. I've got one, and it's about 12 - 14" across the trunk. But better than a tor tor, for sure.

Uh oh, now you’ve got me thinking…. It’s about 2 feet from the chimney. Too close you think? I’d hate to have to chop it in the future. I thought these ones were smaller and more upright growing hence the placement.