Rain and filifera

[ZPalms]

It's been raining a lot and the filifera has been constantly wet should I move it into some cover, I know they like water but I don't think they wanna be soak for hours to days with constant rain but i'm unsure if I should

Edited August 7, 2021 by ZPalms

[NorCalWill]

Someday it's going to be too big to move every time it rains, so it might as well get used to it now. If it's in a fast draining soil, it should be fine.

[ZPalms]

On 8/8/2021 at 12:06 AM, NorCalWill said:

Someday it's going to be too big to move every time it rains, so it might as well get used to it now. If it's in a fast draining soil, it should be fine.

Your right, Hope it survives!

[Jim in Los Altos]

They’re fine with lots of summer rain. What they don’t like is lots of wet chilly cloudy weather. 

[ZPalms]

19 minutes ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

They’re fine with lots of summer rain. What they don’t like is lots of wet chilly cloudy weather. 

That's exactly what the past couple of days have been like, Not too warm but not too hot and humid and wet and cloudy lolol 

[Jim in Los Altos]

On 8/8/2021 at 11:31 PM, ZPalms said:

That's exactly what the past couple of days have been like, Not too warm but not too hot and humid and wet and cloudy lolol 

When I wrote that they don’t like chilly wet cloudy weather I was referring to weeks worth of rainy dark weather with winter highs in the 40s and 50s. An occasional cool summer rain is not harmful at all. 

[ZPalms]

2 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

When I wrote that they don’t like chilly wet cloudy weather I was referring to weeks worth of rainy dark weather with winter highs in the 40s and 50s. An occasional cool summer rain is not harmful at all. 

Ooh, What about weeks of rain at a time like daily?

Edited August 11, 2021 by ZPalms

[Valhallalla]

1 hour ago, ZPalms said:

Ooh, What about weeks of rain at a time like daily?

You mean daily heavy rain for weeks on end like summer wet season in south Florida? They thrive under those conditions down here.

W filifera are hardy robust palms that don't need much coddling. Your palm will be fine.

[sonoranfans]

With filifera its about sub 50F and wet soil, the roots can rot and die back each winter.  You may be able to grow one there, it wont be s massive as the desert ones with 4' thick trunk and huge crown with 30+ leaves, but it might be ok if you have high drainage sandy soil.  If I were you I'd get a filibusta (w. robusta x filifera) which are more proven in the southeast.  A neighbor of mine has a 30'+ one and it looks fairly happy.

[ZPalms]

1 hour ago, Valhallalla said:

You mean daily heavy rain for weeks on end like summer wet season in south Florida? They thrive under those conditions down here.

W filifera are hardy robust palms that don't need much coddling. Your palm will be fine.

Yes! It's been raining here a lot! I'm just worried for it because its struggling. 

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

With filifera its about sub 50F and wet soil, the roots can rot and die back each winter.  You may be able to grow one there, it wont be s massive as the desert ones with 4' thick trunk and huge crown with 30+ leaves, but it might be ok if you have high drainage sandy soil.  If I were you I'd get a filibusta (w. robusta x filifera) which are more proven in the southeast.  A neighbor of mine has a 30'+ one and it looks fairly happy.

I own some Filibustas from seeds and they look very nice! I was given the filifera I have now but it's not doing too good and I'm just trying to figure out how to get it stop being dramatic and show some improvements

[Jim in Los Altos]

On 8/11/2021 at 7:23 AM, ZPalms said:

Yes! It's been raining here a lot! I'm just worried for it because its struggling. 

I own some Filibustas from seeds and they look very nice! I was given the filifera I have now but it's not doing too good and I'm just trying to figure out how to get it stop being dramatic and show some improvements

What has your weather been like this summer in general? W. filifera need a summer that is warm to hot in order to sustain health during a chilly winter. If your summer is cool and moist, W. filifera will be miserable. Lots of summer rain in a hot Florida type climate is fine. 

[UK_Palms]

On 8/11/2021 at 7:18 AM, Jim in Los Altos said:

When I wrote that they don’t like chilly wet cloudy weather I was referring to weeks worth of rainy dark weather with winter highs in the 40s and 50s. An occasional cool summer rain is not harmful at all. 

This is London in a nutshell during winter. 3-4 months of highs in the 40’s and 50’s F with quite a bit of rain and barely any sun. Yet there are two 35 foot Filifera’s in London now with big, full crowns and about 10 other Filifera’s that are pushing 25-30 foot in height. That’s just the ones I know about as well. All were planted tiny when they were like 1 foot in height. 

Maybe it’s due to them being surrounded by concrete, as SonoranFans has mentioned, but I think there may be other factors at play too. Possibly a low water table and light rainfall that doesn’t amount to much? Or the wet-cold is being overstated for Filifera’s…? Or perhaps the London Filifera’s are just a straight up anomaly on the palm map.

This one in Wimbledon may have a hint of Robusta blood in it, but it has entirely green petiole bases. Very Filifera dominant. Last winter was much colder and wetter than average as well, yet it didn’t damage the Filifera’s in London. I took this picture a few weeks back. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by UK_Palms

[sonoranfans]

3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

This is London in a nutshell during winter. 3-4 months of highs in the 40’s and 50’s F with quite a bit of rain and barely any sun. Yet there are two 35 foot Filifera’s in London now with big, full crowns and about 10 other Filifera’s that are pushing 25-30 foot in height. That’s just the ones I know about as well. All were planted tiny when they were like 1 foot in height. 

Maybe it’s due to them being surrounded by concrete, as SonoranFans has mentioned, but I think there may be other factors at play too. Possibly a low water table and light rainfall that doesn’t amount to much? Or the wet-cold is being overstated for Filifera’s…? Or perhaps the London Filifera’s are just a straight up anomaly on the palm map.

This one in Wimbledon may have a hint of Robusta blood in it, but it has entirely green petiole bases. Very Filifera dominant. Last winter was much colder and wetter than average as well, yet it didn’t damage the Filifera’s in London. I took this picture a few weeks back. 

In an F1 cross its like a box of chocolates, you dont know what you're going to get.  I expect many filiferas have robusta blood, its hard to find a pure filifera and be sure unless you go to the right place as they naturally crossbreed in non native areas.  A pure filifera can be obtained in a desert area that gets just cold enough to prevent robustas from surviving.  I lived in arizona ten years and any morphological plasticity to environment that occurs in london may make then look different.  Its also easier with trunks trimmed as the thickness of trunk is only possible to see that way.  Filiferas are the heaviest thickest trunks outside jubaea that I have seen in a full grown palm.  They stay thick with height moreso than sabal causiarum.  4' thick trunk bases removed is about as thick as I've seen them.  I used to think than any full grown palms with bare trunk under 30" were possibly hybrids.  They will grow different in different climates I expect just like many other palms.  But I love those thick trunks, like huge concrete pillars.  I think those london palms would look even nicer with a shave.

[Josue Diaz]

I think there's a chance that even wild groves can produce hybrid seed. The groves in California are in areas where robustas can grow. There is a wild grove in the Kern River Canyon, and some documented specimens on the eastern side near Cantil. I know for certain that the wild groves in the Kern River Canyon are within a mile or so from cultivated robustas. Here's a screenshot, I circled in red a pair of cultivated robustas at a house on the bottom left. And circled in blue the grove of wild filifera at the top right. The planted orchard is a citrus orchard. 

3 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

In an F1 cross its like a box of chocolates, you dont know what you're going to get.  I expect many filiferas have robusta blood, its hard to find a pure filifera and be sure unless you go to the right place as they naturally crossbreed in non native areas.  A pure filifera can be obtained in a desert area that gets just cold enough to prevent robustas from surviving.  I lived in arizona ten years and any morphological plasticity to environment that occurs in london may make then look different.  Its also easier with trunks trimmed as the thickness of trunk is only possible to see that way.  Filiferas are the heaviest thickest trunks outside jubaea that I have seen in a full grown palm.  They stay thick with height moreso than sabal causiarum.  4' thick trunk bases removed is about as thick as I've seen them.  I used to think than any full grown palms with bare trunk under 30" were possibly hybrids.  They will grow different in different climates I expect just like many other palms.  But I love those thick trunks, like huge concrete pillars.  I think those london palms would look even nicer with a shave.

 

[ZPalms]

14 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

What has your weather been like this summer in general? W. filifera need a summer that is warm to hot in order to sustain health during a chilly winter. If your summer is cool and moist, W. filifera will be miserable. Lots of summer rain in a hot Florida type climate is fine. 

I has been pretty hot but the last couple of days were a bit cooler but it's back to being scorching hot again but the filifera isn't doing too good and the smaller leaf started green but it's getting brown and I'm not sure what I should do, Should I give it fertilizer? It's only been in this bag for 4 weeks now I think but it's condition looks to be on decline.

[Jim in Los Altos]

18 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

This is London in a nutshell during winter. 3-4 months of highs in the 40’s and 50’s F with quite a bit of rain and barely any sun. Yet there are two 35 foot Filifera’s in London now with big, full crowns and about 10 other Filifera’s that are pushing 25-30 foot in height. That’s just the ones I know about as well. All were planted tiny when they were like 1 foot in height. 

Maybe it’s due to them being surrounded by concrete, as SonoranFans has mentioned, but I think there may be other factors at play too. Possibly a low water table and light rainfall that doesn’t amount to much? Or the wet-cold is being overstated for Filifera’s…? Or perhaps the London Filifera’s are just a straight up anomaly on the palm map.

This one in Wimbledon may have a hint of Robusta blood in it, but it has entirely green petiole bases. Very Filifera dominant. Last winter was much colder and wetter than average as well, yet it didn’t damage the Filifera’s in London. I took this picture a few weeks back. 

Having any robusta DNA will completely change the way they tolerate cool wet winters. Even in San Jose, California, the city has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to keep the hundreds of W. filifera along city streets alive due to diamond scale fungus attacks which are significantly worse during wetter winters. The ones that die are replaced with W. filibusta which resists the fungal attacks. 

[GottmitAlex]

10 hours ago, ZPalms said:

I has been pretty hot but the last couple of days were a bit cooler but it's back to being scorching hot again but the filifera isn't doing too good and the smaller leaf started green but it's getting brown and I'm not sure what I should do, Should I give it fertilizer? It's only been in this bag for 4 weeks now I think but it's condition looks to be on decline.

That palm is on borrowed time. Get another one.

[sonoranfans]

19 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

I think there's a chance that even wild groves can produce hybrid seed. The groves in California are in areas where robustas can grow. There is a wild grove in the Kern River Canyon, and some documented specimens on the eastern side near Cantil. I know for certain that the wild groves in the Kern River Canyon are within a mile or so from cultivated robustas. Here's a screenshot, I circled in red a pair of cultivated robustas at a house on the bottom left. And circled in blue the grove of wild filifera at the top right. The planted orchard is a citrus orchard. 

 

In arizona there are native groves where it just gets too cold for robusta and its dry enough that the filifera really take that cold down to low temps.  This link says there is about an 8F degree difference in cold tolerance between the two, so such an area that hits say 10F will kill off any robusta that seeds from incoming birds etc,.https://zonehardypalms.com/the-washingtonia-robusta-vs-filifera-what-are-the-differences#:~:text=The Filifera is more of,F lower than the Robusta.&text=The Robusta on the other,cold tolerant as the Filifera.

  SO yeah if the native area is too mild to kill off robusta, you could have hybrids there.  I remember talking to a nurseryman that told me he collected seed from such a place.  A friend bought his filifera in 24" box and in 7 years they were monsters with trunks approaching 3' thick leafbases on.  Leaves are larger on filifera than the hybrids.  If you have wet winters or just too wet, the robusta blood in a hybrid is a good thing for moisture tolerance in roots and foliage.

[ZPalms]

I've decided to run an experiment since it may be on it's way out, I put a bowl of water under it so that it can tap into the water as it wants all day and I'll change the water out every couple of hours and see what happens cause maybe i'm not watering it as often as it wants because I usually water once a day or the soil isn't holding as much water as it wants so I guess I'm gonna just see what happens.

This is the only thing I can think of and I kind of compare it to how filifera in the wild tap into nearby streams for unlimited water, I hope it shows so good signs and i'm not just stupid 

Edited August 14, 2021 by ZPalms

[UK_Palms]

That big Wimbledon washie in southeast London that I posted above is almost certainly a hybrid. I think it does have a bit of red coloration on the petiole bases, although it was too tall to properly confirm when I visited it recently. It has always looked pretty Filifera-like to me, especially when it was much smaller, although it still looks pretty Filifera-like to me now.

However the trunk is looking slimmer every year since it is now putting on quite a bit of height. I reckon it's like 75% Filifera and 25% Robusta. So basically a Filifera-dominant hybrid. A lot of the London ones seem to be Filifera dominant hybrids. It's probably the best type of washie for handling our cold and wet. Although both pure Filifera and pure Robusta survive in London.

Here's Barry's big Filifera in his Edmonton, north London back yard. It's planted into grass as well on the edge of the lawn, not concrete @sonoranfans. Approximately 35 foot tall as of now. I think it was grown from seed about 25 years ago. These pictures are at least 2-3 years old now, so it will be even bigger now. Would you say that is a pure Filifera?

Pure Filifera...?

The Canvey one, just to the east of London, is definitely 100% pure Filifera. Planted as a 30cm seedling in 1998, I believe. Again, these pictures are a few years old now...

 

The Isle of Dogs one in east London is definitely pure Filifera as well. It has a proper fat trunk on this one, and surprise surprise, it is growing out of concrete too. It must be a 30 footer now as well. I'll try to get some more recent pictures of it.

 

There's two big Filifera's in the back yard of Juniper House in Kensal Town, London. The bigger one must be about 25-30 foot. They are just about visible from the road on street view, but will be more visible up close on foot. I will try to get a picture of them as the bigger of the two is right up there with Barry's and the Canvey one in terms of size. I suspect they are growing out of concrete as well.

Here they both are from the other side of the street. The smaller one is at the front, which could be a hybrid. I'm pretty sure the bigger one is a Filifera though.

 

I'm not sure about the Chingford one. It looks pretty FIlifera-like to me...? It has been there at least 15 years now.

 

I thought the New Malden, southeast London one was a pure Filifera for a while, but upon visiting recently I can confirm the presence of some red coloration on the petiole bases. Another Filifera dominant hybrid though, similar to the big Wimbledon one I posted earlier. Filifera-dominant hybrids seem to look the best. 

 

9 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Having any robusta DNA will completely change the way they tolerate cool wet winters. Even in San Jose, California, the city has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to keep the hundreds of W. filifera along city streets alive due to diamond scale fungus attacks which are significantly worse during wetter winters. The ones that die are replaced with W. filibusta which resists the fungal attacks. 

Diamond Scale fungus may be specific to CA or the southwest USA. I'm not sure if the London Filifera's get it over here. Our washies can get spotting and a bit of wet-cold damage, or at least the smaller ones do, which are obviously less hardy, but I don't think Diamond Scale is really an issue here. Certainly not for big specimens. There's a few big, pure Filifera's over here now and I don't believe they show signs of this fungus, or many other diseases that may be an issue in their native range. That may be another reason why Filifera are surviving over here. I could be wrong though. These Filifera's are up at 51N. How far north will Filifera grow on the west coast? I'm guessing there must be some up at 45-50N in Oregon and Washington? 

Pure Filifera's and Filifera dominant hybrids seem to take the wet-cold pretty well in London. I think it's a combination of most of them being planted into, or around concrete, as SonoranFans has highlighted, plus the relatively low water table and the light rainfall that doesn't amount to that much. For instance, London averages about 22 inches of rainfall per year. That is below the global average. The absence of certain pests and diseases may also be a factor, such as Diamond Scale fungus. There are probably a few more decent sized Filifera's lurking out there in southeastern England. Even I am surprised how well they have done here.

@ZPalms Good luck with your experiment. What is the coldest temperature you have seen over the past decade there? And what is your annual rainfall total? London is proof that Filifera do not need hot, dry summers or subtropical winters to survive and grow. That's not to say that Filifera will grow in North Carolina though. There are lots of variables to consider.

[ZPalms]

20 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

That big Wimbledon washie in southeast London that I posted above is almost certainly a hybrid. I think it does have a bit of red coloration on the petiole bases, although it was too tall to properly confirm when I visited it recently. It has always looked pretty Filifera-like to me, especially when it was much smaller, although it still looks pretty Filifera-like to me now.

However the trunk is looking slimmer every year since it is now putting on quite a bit of height. I reckon it's like 75% Filifera and 25% Robusta. So basically a Filifera-dominant hybrid. A lot of the London ones seem to be Filifera dominant hybrids. It's probably the best type of washie for handling our cold and wet. Although both pure Filifera and pure Robusta survive in London.

Here's Barry's big Filifera in his Edmonton, north London back yard. It's planted into grass as well on the edge of the lawn, not concrete @sonoranfans. Approximately 35 foot tall as of now. I think it was grown from seed about 25 years ago. These pictures are at least 2-3 years old now, so it will be even bigger now. Would you say that is a pure Filifera?

Pure Filifera...?

The Canvey one, just to the east of London, is definitely 100% pure Filifera. Planted as a 30cm seedling in 1998, I believe. Again, these pictures are a few years old now...

 

The Isle of Dogs one in east London is definitely pure Filifera as well. It has a proper fat trunk on this one, and surprise surprise, it is growing out of concrete too. It must be a 30 footer now as well. I'll try to get some more recent pictures of it.

 

There's two big Filifera's in the back yard of Juniper House in Kensal Town, London. The bigger one must be about 25-30 foot. They are just about visible from the road on street view, but will be more visible up close on foot. I will try to get a picture of them as the bigger of the two is right up there with Barry's and the Canvey one in terms of size. I suspect they are growing out of concrete as well.

Here they both are from the other side of the street. The smaller one is at the front, which could be a hybrid. I'm pretty sure the bigger one is a Filifera though.

 

I'm not sure about the Chingford one. It looks pretty FIlifera-like to me...? It has been there at least 15 years now.

 

I thought the New Malden, southeast London one was a pure Filifera for a while, but upon visiting recently I can confirm the presence of some red coloration on the petiole bases. Another Filifera dominant hybrid though, similar to the big Wimbledon one I posted earlier. Filifera-dominant hybrids seem to look the best. 

 

Diamond Scale fungus may be specific to CA or the southwest USA. I'm not sure if the London Filifera's get it over here. Our washies can get spotting and a bit of wet-cold damage, or at least the smaller ones do, which are obviously less hardy, but I don't think Diamond Scale is really an issue here. Certainly not for big specimens. There's a few big, pure Filifera's over here now and I don't believe they show signs of this fungus, or many other diseases that may be an issue in their native range. That may be another reason why Filifera are surviving over here. I could be wrong though. These Filifera's are up at 51N. How far north will Filifera grow on the west coast? I'm guessing there must be some up at 45-50N in Oregon and Washington? 

Pure Filifera's and Filifera dominant hybrids seem to take the wet-cold pretty well in London. I think it's a combination of most of them being planted into, or around concrete, as SonoranFans has highlighted, plus the relatively low water table and the light rainfall that doesn't amount to that much. For instance, London averages about 22 inches of rainfall per year. That is below the global average. The absence of certain pests and diseases may also be a factor, such as Diamond Scale fungus. There are probably a few more decent sized Filifera's lurking out there in southeastern England. Even I am surprised how well they have done here.

@ZPalms Good luck with your experiment. What is the coldest temperature you have seen over the past decade there? And what is your annual rainfall total? London is proof that Filifera do not need hot, dry summers or subtropical winters to survive and grow. That's not to say that Filifera will grow in North Carolina though. There are lots of variables to consider.

Thank you! the coldest temperature I think was 15F last December but that doesn't happen often it usually goes into the 20s and then during the day goes back up but I live in hope mills north Carolina, the temperature typically varies from 35°F to 91°F and is rarely below 22°F or above 97°F.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by ZPalms

[ZPalms]

Just an update on my experiment, some of the leaf turned yellow from overwatering I suspect or it was going to do that anway since it's in poor condition, I really wonder if bringing it inside out of the humidity and heat would be the best thing in its favor as some kind of rehab then acclimate back in the sun next year? LOL

Edited August 18, 2021 by ZPalms

[SoulofthePlace]

Tizz cool to see that Washingtonias grow in Northern Europe (England).