What kind of containers do growers use to grow hundreds to thousands of palms from seed?

[Gottagrowemall]

Hi, so I live in Palm Coast Florida and around this time of year palms all over are producing seed. I recently harvested roughly 1,000 seeds from a neighbors Phoenix sylvestris which. There are hundreds of different Sylvesters and CIDPs and robellinis in the area so I know I’m likely to get a hybrid. Anyways I wanted to try to grow as many succesful plants from these seeds as possible.

 

aside from planting each one in an individual pot or cup, what would you recommend? I was thinking about buying some cheap shallow plastic bins drilling holes in them and planting that way.

[NOT A TA]

Even if you start them in community pot bins or whatever you'll quickly need to start spending money on soil, pots, fertilizer etc.  Are you prepared to buy 1000 one gallon growers pots (about $.200.00 wholesale if you could buy them as a business) plus the soil to fill them? Then 1000 3 gallon pots ($400.00 wholesale) and 2 more gallons of soil for each to fill them? Then 1000 5 gallon pots ($850.00 wholesale) along with 2 more gallons of soil for each. Aside from costs, It takes a lot of time to keep up with weeding 1000 pots and even more time re-potting 1000 plants at a time as they grow. Once you've got 1000 5 gallon plants what will you do with them?

  A couple years down the road a thousand 15 gallon pots will cost well over $3,000.00 never mind the soil cost. Sometimes it becomes a question of should we rather than could we. A LOT of people who start getting into propagating plants get excited and carried away when they first start growing, then realize they've created a monster. It's very easy to do when the plants are small seedlings, cuttings or whatever. Sure it's easy to start with household containers for pots and dig up a bit of soil in the yard to use, but when soil arrives in dump trucks ($$$) and you need a space to dump it things get serious! I guess I'm just thinking you might want to scale back on the quantity, I'm fine with filling a garbage can with seedlings I've germinated and don't want/need and do so fairly often, others find it very difficult to kill them.

 

[Gottagrowemall]

21 minutes ago, NOT A TA said:

Even if you start them in community pot bins or whatever you'll quickly need to start spending money on soil, pots, fertilizer etc.  Are you prepared to buy 1000 one gallon growers pots (about $.200.00 wholesale if you could buy them as a business) plus the soil to fill them? Then 1000 3 gallon pots ($400.00 wholesale) and 2 more gallons of soil for each to fill them? Then 1000 5 gallon pots ($850.00 wholesale) along with 2 more gallons of soil for each. Aside from costs, It takes a lot of time to keep up with weeding 1000 pots and even more time re-potting 1000 plants at a time as they grow. Once you've got 1000 5 gallon plants what will you do with them?

  A couple years down the road a thousand 15 gallon pots will cost well over $3,000.00 never mind the soil cost. Sometimes it becomes a question of should we rather than could we. A LOT of people who start getting into propagating plants get excited and carried away when they first start growing, then realize they've created a monster. It's very easy to do when the plants are small seedlings, cuttings or whatever. Sure it's easy to start with household containers for pots and dig up a bit of soil in the yard to use, but when soil arrives in dump trucks ($$$) and you need a space to dump it things get serious! I guess I'm just thinking you might want to scale back on the quantity, I'm fine with filling a garbage can with seedlings I've germinated and don't want/need and do so fairly often, others find it very difficult to kill them.

 

In the future I’d like to start a nursery specializing in palms and tropical bamboo. I’ve already got some space in my backyard where I’m growing and selling tropicals so as these grow I plan on upgrading in space and size with them. I do have about 100, 3 gallon grow bags numerous 1-5 gallon pots and several 7 and 15 gallon pots. 
 

my fear is putting them in a pot like that even at the top will cause major soggy soil in the bottom and maybe issues in the future not sure. I don’t anticipate every seed growing but even if I got 1,000 plants out of them I would continue with them and possibly use them as my startup for a nursery business. I do appreciate the advice though, thank you!

[aztropic]

People that want to plant a sylvestris,do NOT want to start with a small plant. 15 gallon would be a minimum sale size,and even then,probably not a lot of takers. These are already field grown by the thousands to be planted in new housing with 4ft plus trunks. Know your audience.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[DoomsDave]

4 hours ago, Gottagrowemall said:

Hi, so I live in Palm Coast Florida and around this time of year palms all over are producing seed. I recently harvested roughly 1,000 seeds from a neighbors Phoenix sylvestris which. There are hundreds of different Sylvesters and CIDPs and robellinis in the area so I know I’m likely to get a hybrid. Anyways I wanted to try to grow as many succesful plants from these seeds as possible.

 

aside from planting each one in an individual pot or cup, what would you recommend? I was thinking about buying some cheap shallow plastic bins drilling holes in them and planting that way.

Nice to meet you!

The best thing for starting seeds, for most (but not all) palms is community pots. Put a bunch of seed in the pot with potting soil, cover, keep moist and they grow.

Some kinds benefit more from the "baggie method" particularly those like Brahea that don't take being split apart well.

 

[DoomsDave]

2 hours ago, Gottagrowemall said:

In the future I’d like to start a nursery specializing in palms and tropical bamboo. I’ve already got some space in my backyard where I’m growing and selling tropicals so as these grow I plan on upgrading in space and size with them. I do have about 100, 3 gallon grow bags numerous 1-5 gallon pots and several 7 and 15 gallon pots. 
 

my fear is putting them in a pot like that even at the top will cause major soggy soil in the bottom and maybe issues in the future not sure. I don’t anticipate every seed growing but even if I got 1,000 plants out of them I would continue with them and possibly use them as my startup for a nursery business. I do appreciate the advice though, thank you!

Follow @aztropic's advice and don't go whole hawg on something till you know you can sell it. Don't, please, plant lots of seeds then have to dump the babies or, worse, well-grown mature plants you can't sell.

[DoomsDave]

Here’s a bunch of community pots.

 

[sonoranfans]

2 hours ago, Gottagrowemall said:

In the future I’d like to start a nursery specializing in palms and tropical bamboo. I’ve already got some space in my backyard where I’m growing and selling tropicals so as these grow I plan on upgrading in space and size with them. I do have about 100, 3 gallon grow bags numerous 1-5 gallon pots and several 7 and 15 gallon pots. 
 

my fear is putting them in a pot like that even at the top will cause major soggy soil in the bottom and maybe issues in the future not sure. I don’t anticipate every seed growing but even if I got 1,000 plants out of them I would continue with them and possibly use them as my startup for a nursery business. I do appreciate the advice though, thank you!

I would suggest you visit a palm specialty nursery and see what they are doing in terms of stock etc.  Yes you will need lots of pots and no one wants to pay a good price for a small phoenix sylvestris.  Small palms are cheap here unless they are a slower growing more exotic variety.  Grabbing phoenix sp seeds off a tree in florida is risking hybrids and unknown genetics as they are promiscuous hybridizers in the wild and here in florida where some phoenix are listed as invasive.  I have hundreds of phoenix hybrids growing all over in the woods behind my house.  Looking at established nurseries doing good business would be a first step.  See what is selling and at what size? If they aren't talking about it, you always know that stressed, rootbound plant species are likely not selling.

[PalmatierMeg]

You don't go into the nursery business to get rich. You don't do it as a sideline to bring in extra cash. You do it because you are compelled to make it your living. It's hard and back breaking business. And you will find that homeowners, developers and landscapers won't beat a path to your door to scarf up what you grew from free seeds on the back 1/2 acre. You are looking at big investment of time, energy and capital.

'

[The Germinator]

You can use 3 to 5 gallon in mass. I get 35 to 70+ plants in 3 gallon pots with marble sized decaryi seeds. Depending on germ rates,

[ShadyDan]

I agree with @DoomsDave about the community pot method. I much prefer that for all species, I’ve never had an issue with splitting Brahea either. I use a 50/50 peat perlite mix for the medium. I’ll sow many seeds in 1 gallon pots and generally pull them out individually once I see the first blade poking out of the soil. As palms are often sporadic in germination, I can leave the slower seeds mostly undisturbed in the pot to continue on. Ive had great success doing this method with Sabal, Trachycarpus, Brahea, Jubaea, Butia, Chamaerops, Livistona, and Phoenix. 
 

I run a small hobby nursery out of my backyard and sell most palms at sizes between 1-2 gallons. However, everything besides Trachys are next to impossible to find up here so there are enough collectors/enthusiasts that do not mind buying smaller palms. Don’t let others discourage you though, more palms out there for sale sale no matter what the size is always a good thing! 
 

Good luck! 

[Jubaea_James760]

I grow in community pots ( 3 gallon) & in bands/liners ( 3"×3"×7") 

25 bands/liners fit in 1 flat so you can carry it around. It could get a bit heavy though. 

[waykoolplantz]

my friend Chip Jones has well organized community pots..

[teddytn]

16 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

You don't go into the nursery business to get rich. You don't do it as a sideline to bring in extra cash. You do it because you are compelled to make it your living. It's hard and back breaking business. And you will find that homeowners, developers and landscapers won't beat a path to your door to scarf up what you grew from free seeds on the back 1/2 acre. You are looking at big investment of time, energy and capital.

'

Labor of love

[Gottagrowemall]

On 6/22/2021 at 2:17 PM, aztropic said:

People that want to plant a sylvestris,do NOT want to start with a small plant. 15 gallon would be a minimum sale size,and even then,probably not a lot of takers. These are already field grown by the thousands to be planted in new housing with 4ft plus trunks. Know your audience.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

That is definitely true and I agree 100%. In the future my wife and I are going to look into buying property for growing palms and bamboo so at the time if I still have them (assuming this works) I will plant them in the ground and purchase the necessary equipment to extract them, deliver, etc. 

[Gottagrowemall]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:35 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

You don't go into the nursery business to get rich. You don't do it as a sideline to bring in extra cash. You do it because you are compelled to make it your living. It's hard and back breaking business. And you will find that homeowners, developers and landscapers won't beat a path to your door to scarf up what you grew from free seeds on the back 1/2 acre. You are looking at big investment of time, energy and capital.

'

I’ve already had a lot of success doing it as a side business while developing my own landscape since Covid shut things down. I am a teacher with summers off and can devote a lot of time to this. The palm I got the seeds from had about 1,000 and the owner wanted me to take all or nothing. I can either choose to throw them in the trash or grow them. Right now I am just getting my feet wet before we buy property.

[Gottagrowemall]

On 6/22/2021 at 11:37 PM, ShadyDan said:

I agree with @DoomsDave about the community pot method. I much prefer that for all species, I’ve never had an issue with splitting Brahea either. I use a 50/50 peat perlite mix for the medium. I’ll sow many seeds in 1 gallon pots and generally pull them out individually once I see the first blade poking out of the soil. As palms are often sporadic in germination, I can leave the slower seeds mostly undisturbed in the pot to continue on. Ive had great success doing this method with Sabal, Trachycarpus, Brahea, Jubaea, Butia, Chamaerops, Livistona, and Phoenix. 
 

I run a small hobby nursery out of my backyard and sell most palms at sizes between 1-2 gallons. However, everything besides Trachys are next to impossible to find up here so there are enough collectors/enthusiasts that do not mind buying smaller palms. Don’t let others discourage you though, more palms out there for sale sale no matter what the size is always a good thing! 
 

Good luck! 

Thank you! So, let’s say in a 1 gallon community pot you sow 10 seeds. Do you find it very difficult to separate their roots? I know for the most part Palm seedlings have one main root that grows straight down when it can, so it should be pretty easy right?

[Gottagrowemall]

On 6/22/2021 at 11:21 PM, The Germinator said:

You can use 3 to 5 gallon in mass. I get 35 to 70+ plants in 3 gallon pots with marble sized decaryi seeds. Depending on germ rates,

What is your process of separating them?

[Breadfruit Bill]

Don’t forget to clean all those seed to lessen fungal problems in those compots...

Just go plant seeds, you can always compost them if you change your mind...  there’s an adage about how to make a million dollars farming, if you aren’t familiar with it...  you should be.

This is how I started in palm propagation back in the day... 2007 wow time flies.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/6183-shadehouse-numero-dos/&tab=comments#comment-102512

[ShadyDan]

1 hour ago, Gottagrowemall said:

Thank you! So, let’s say in a 1 gallon community pot you sow 10 seeds. Do you find it very difficult to separate their roots? I know for the most part Palm seedlings have one main root that grows straight down when it can, so it should be pretty easy right?

Not at all difficult to separate. Depending on the size of the seed I'll usually sow much more than that in one container. For example, in the picture below I probably sowed ~50 T. fortunei seeds in each pot. Sabals I've done ~100 per pot, Jubaea I could only fit ~8 in each pot haha. The seeds were still easy to separate even with that many in one pot. That's also why I like pulling them while still small, less chance for their roots to get tangled. Like you said, most species usually put a long root down first before branching, as you can see in the picture.  A light potting mix like I suggested helps too (I just used straight ProMix HP for these as they were super fresh seed from next door and Trachys are super easy to propagate here).

[Gottagrowemall]

7 hours ago, www.dadluvsu.com said:

Don’t forget to clean all those seed to lessen fungal problems in those compots...

Just go plant seeds, you can always compost them if you change your mind...  there’s an adage about how to make a million dollars farming, if you aren’t familiar with it...  you should be.

This is how I started in palm propagation back in the day... 2007 wow time flies.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/6183-shadehouse-numero-dos/&tab=comments#comment-102512

Thanks for the advice on the seed cleaning. Is the wire wheel just to turn the water? 
 

My wife and I have a monthly budget and a section cut out that I’m allowed to spend on “landscape” but it’s basically all my gardening hobbies. I sell a lot of stuff out of my backyard to compensate. Some months I’m 100 or so in the minus some months I’m 50-100 over some even. I’m not into it to make money It’s just something I love to do.

my grandpa was a corn and soybean farmer and he told me the number one thing I should never become is a farmer lol

[Gottagrowemall]

7 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

Not at all difficult to separate. Depending on the size of the seed I'll usually sow much more than that in one container. For example, in the picture below I probably sowed ~50 T. fortunei seeds in each pot. Sabals I've done ~100 per pot, Jubaea I could only fit ~8 in each pot haha. The seeds were still easy to separate even with that many in one pot. That's also why I like pulling them while still small, less chance for their roots to get tangled. Like you said, most species usually put a long root down first before branching, as you can see in the picture.  A light potting mix like I suggested helps too (I just used straight ProMix HP for these as they were super fresh seed from next door and Trachys are super easy to propagate here).

Looks good I’ll probably make my own mix with peat perlite and a little soil. I’m excited to get started! It’ll probably be a month or two before I see anything since they just came off the tree 

[Jubaea_James760]

2 hours ago, Gottagrowemall said:

 

My wife and I have a monthly budget and a section cut out that I’m allowed to spend on “landscape” but it’s basically all my gardening hobbies. I sell a lot of stuff out of my backyard to compensate. Some months I’m 100 or so in the minus some months I’m 50-100 over some even. I’m not into it to make money It’s just something I love to do.

 

I did the whole backyard nursery thing for awhile too, almost 10 years ago now. Had alot of fun. Now I just ship stuff. It's truly a blessing to make some money off something that you love to do 

[Jubaea_James760]

Here's some more photos of those liners & community pots. Community pots are the way to go though 

[Gottagrowemall]

40 minutes ago, James760 said:

Here's some more photos of those liners & community pots. Community pots are the way to go though 

Where did you get those tiny square pots? Are those the ones you refer to as liners?

[The Germinator]

12 hours ago, Gottagrowemall said:

What is your process of separating them?

At that size in a 3 gallon Com. pot you get 1 nice main root that hits bottom and start forming an l shape with shorter lateral feeder roots so they untangle very easy. I use a lot of pearlite in mix so soil breaks up real easy.  These grow fast so they get potted up to 1 gallon or tree pots just to make it easy.

[Gottagrowemall]

25 minutes ago, The Germinator said:

At that size in a 3 gallon Com. pot you get 1 nice main root that hits bottom and start forming an l shape with shorter lateral feeder roots so they untangle very easy. I use a lot of pearlite in mix so soil breaks up real easy.  These grow fast so they get potted up to 1 gallon or tree pots just to make it easy.

Good to know! I have a ton of random pots of different sizes and bags so I’ll pot them up community style and be patient. I’m going to plant them just barely under the soil, last time when I did medjool date palms I think I planted them too deep. They still sprouted but a few were struggling to make it to the top

Edited June 26, 2021 by Gottagrowemall

[Reyes Vargas]

32 minutes ago, Gottagrowemall said:

Where did you get those tiny square pots? Are those the ones you refer to as liners?

Those are the liner pots but they are not tiny.  They are 3 inches square at the top by 9 inches long I believe.

[Jubaea_James760]

There 3×3×7". I bought them from a guy in San Diego County years ago. I think I found him on Craigslist. I bought 1000 at the time.

This place sells them but I believe there out of stock. They have a ton of other pots to look at. But cheapest way is buy used.. Find a nursery going out if business, Craigslist, offer up or post in the Wanted forum. You might get lucky 

https://stuewe.com/product-category/anderson-pots-flats-trays/

 

[Gottagrowemall]

11 hours ago, James760 said:

There 3×3×7". I bought them from a guy in San Diego County years ago. I think I found him on Craigslist. I bought 1000 at the time.

This place sells them but I believe there out of stock. They have a ton of other pots to look at. But cheapest way is buy used.. Find a nursery going out if business, Craigslist, offer up or post in the Wanted forum. You might get lucky 

https://stuewe.com/product-category/anderson-pots-flats-trays/

 

Thanks James you’ve been a huge help!

[PalmatierMeg]

I've been selling plants and seeds on PalmTalk and eBay since 2010 when I first got wind I would be laid off from my job at a mitigation bank. That happened in 2011. Those sales enabled me to bring in income and financed future palm purchases. You will help your cause if you are willing to ship the plants you grow. It's not that hard to do after you master the shipping cost curve. Most people are are unwilling to try shipping and lose chances to make money. Maybe they are lucky enough to have lots of other wealth and income or just lack motivation. But if you got to put food on the table, make the car payment or buy baby's new shoes, that extra money comes in handy and encourages you to made some extra efforts. I now fund purchases of new palms, pots, fertilizer, soil, coco coir, perlite etc. through plant sales. I've also paid for equipment for my husband's softball hobby and other non-plant related stuff.

It's a lot of work sometimes and I've spent days packing and mailing plants when I'd rather be working in the yard. You do what you gotta do. The last couple years I'm seeing a lot more interest in palms in general and in places where no one once thought of growing them. From my POV that's a great thing and bodes well for the future of palm growing.

[Jubaea_James760]

On 6/25/2021 at 7:01 PM, Reyes Vargas said:

Those are the liner pots but they are not tiny.  They are 3 inches square at the top by 9 inches long I believe.

Hey @Reyes Vargas, you were right about the measurements of those pots. I checked the other day & was like, doh! I don't even know my own pot sizes lol! 

[kinzyjr]

For Washingtonia filifera and other small seeds, these work pretty well: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ferry-Morse-Pro-Hex-Seed-Starting-Tray-kit-PHEX-14H/203796233

[Really full garden]

I think in Florida it’s very possible to find used pots from nurseries closing/ going out of business etc.

Choose your market well . There are niche markets for unusual cold hardy palms, hybrid  palms and of course ,ultra new species that require a large investment to acquire seed.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Really full garden

[Merlyn]

So here's an odd question: where does everyone buy their peat moss?  Most of the stuff I've seen at the box stores is the stringy long-fiber "Sphagnum Peat Moss" and not the fine bog-swamp fibers.  Sometimes the local HD/Lowes "topsoil" is about 90% fine fiber peat moss, but sometimes it's muck.  Do you buy it as compressed bricks like coco coir?  Or is there a brand that sells in local stores?

[Bigfish]

On 7/21/2021 at 5:05 PM, Merlyn said:

So here's an odd question: where does everyone buy their peat moss?  Most of the stuff I've seen at the box stores is the stringy long-fiber "Sphagnum Peat Moss" and not the fine bog-swamp fibers.  Sometimes the local HD/Lowes "topsoil" is about 90% fine fiber peat moss, but sometimes it's muck.  Do you buy it as compressed bricks like coco coir?  Or is there a brand that sells in local stores?

Sometimes Lowes carries the bales, but I usually get them from my local Ace Hardware store.

[Scott W]

I recycle tall water and soda bottles and use those for many of my seedlings.  Also recently purchased 1800 3.5"x5 pots for my mule palm seedlings off eBay.

Only thing is eventually you have to build or buy something to keep them in order.

[PhoenixFXG]

Anyone know why you don’t see phoenix dactylifera commonly sold? All I see are Sylvester and sometimes Canariensis.

i have about 120 seeds im germinating but now having second thoughts. Am I missing something?

[Merlyn]

3 hours ago, PhoenixFXG said:

Anyone know why you don’t see phoenix dactylifera commonly sold? All I see are Sylvester and sometimes Canariensis.

i have about 120 seeds im germinating but now having second thoughts. Am I missing something?

Dactylifera don't really like our oppressive summer humidity.  They grow just fine, but have a tendency to get leaf fungal spots and don't hold a nice full silvery crown like in CA or drier areas.  The clustering and stabby nature is also somewhat of a maintenance problem when they get bigger. 

The biggest problem to me is that they are *extremely* susceptible to Lethal Bronzing, maybe worse than Sylvesters.  If you've driven past the I4/417 interchange recently, about 25% of the Dactylifera at the 417/Rinehart exit are dead, and another 50% have visible symptoms.  I'm guessing they'll all be dead by the middle of next summer.  Once LB gets into an area I've seen 0% survivors.  

I had one out of three Sylvestris get LB symptoms, so I pre-emptively trashed all three of them.  Originally these Sylvestris were going to be long-term canopy palms.  But if I'm growing stuff long-term or from seed, I'm going to pick a species that has a high likelihood of long-term survival. 

[PhoenixFXG]

2 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Dactylifera don't really like our oppressive summer humidity.  They grow just fine, but have a tendency to get leaf fungal spots and don't hold a nice full silvery crown like in CA or drier areas.  The clustering and stabby nature is also somewhat of a maintenance problem when they get bigger. 

The biggest problem to me is that they are *extremely* susceptible to Lethal Bronzing, maybe worse than Sylvesters.  If you've driven past the I4/417 interchange recently, about 25% of the Dactylifera at the 417/Rinehart exit are dead, and another 50% have visible symptoms.  I'm guessing they'll all be dead by the middle of next summer.  Once LB gets into an area I've seen 0% survivors.  

I had one out of three Sylvestris get LB symptoms, so I pre-emptively trashed all three of them.  Originally these Sylvestris were going to be long-term canopy palms.  But if I'm growing stuff long-term or from seed, I'm going to pick a species that has a high likelihood of long-term survival. 

Good points. I think the whole LB issues will be solved by the time I have mature date palms. I think they isolated a chemical that makes palms resistant to LB but it’s still being researched. 

They are in my opinion the best looking phoenix spp. so I want to try to grow like a hundred of them along with mule palms, brahea armata, brahea Clara and Jubaea.