Queen palms in Dallas after the big freeze, need advice

[Npeterh]

I have a 10 feet, one 4 feet and 4 small Queen palms. After we had the big freeze in Dallas I thought most of my queens were shot given I had no power for 8 hours at a time so only protection was 4 layers of frost cloth. I kept cutting down my small ones and gave them up for dead. Until we moved one and I realized it had some green on the trunk so I put it in a pot and low and behold it is shooting up a new green spear! Despite me pulling out a rotten one a month ago.

Problem is my 10 and 4 feet ones, the big one has about a foot of green fonds but just last week I pulled a spear from it that had grown but recently stopped. I poured some copper solution again (done several times already) but what do I do now? Do I cut it back to where it has no rot anymore despite that means cutting off the few inches of green leaf it has. I am leaning towards that but need advice. Trunk has quite a few green areas so I expect it is still alive.

My 4 foot one I cut back so it is 3 feet. It was shooting out a brown spear so could pull that one too. For this I guess it is just a waiting game to see if it will send up a healthy spear.

To my joy my 3 year old Bismarck palm made it. Sent out 4 leaves so far, first two damaged but last two looks great! It survived 2 winters before this one and I was really surprise that frost cloth made it survive despite the record cold, -2F! Just frost cloth since power outage kept the lights from coming on, has not even one foot of trunk yet!

Appreciate any advice whether cutting back my large Queen or not!

[aegean]

Very  difficult question / decision.

I wouldn't cut off the green it has already grown. 

As you have already poured copper solution into the hole ( I use peroxide, but should do the same),  the only thing you could do, is to protect the hole from rain by building some kind of roof above it. Of course it shouldn't hinder air circulation.

I wouldn't fertilize until it is out of the woods.

[Collectorpalms]

  On 5/24/2021 at 5:51 AM, Npeterh said:

I have a 10 feet, one 4 feet and 4 small Queen palms. After we had the big freeze in Dallas I thought most of my queens were shot given I had no power for 8 hours at a time so only protection was 4 layers of frost cloth. I kept cutting down my small ones and gave them up for dead. Until we moved one and I realized it had some green on the trunk so I put it in a pot and low and behold it is shooting up a new green spear! Despite me pulling out a rotten one a month ago.

Problem is my 10 and 4 feet ones, the big one has about a foot of green fonds but just last week I pulled a spear from it that had grown but recently stopped. I poured some copper solution again (done several times already) but what do I do now? Do I cut it back to where it has no rot anymore despite that means cutting off the few inches of green leaf it has. I am leaning towards that but need advice. Trunk has quite a few green areas so I expect it is still alive.

My 4 foot one I cut back so it is 3 feet. It was shooting out a brown spear so could pull that one too. For this I guess it is just a waiting game to see if it will send up a healthy spear.

To my joy my 3 year old Bismarck palm made it. Sent out 4 leaves so far, first two damaged but last two looks great! It survived 2 winters before this one and I was really surprise that frost cloth made it survive despite the record cold, -2F! Just frost cloth since power outage kept the lights from coming on, has not even one foot of trunk yet!

Appreciate any advice whether cutting back my large Queen or not!

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Please post pictures of them before the freeze, during the freeze and how you Protected them, and how they look today. 

[Npeterh]

So here are my pics. First one is of my Bismarck which survived and is now shooting out its fourth fond so far!

Then my queen from last fall, wrapped in multiple frost cloth layers with Christmas lights. How it looked afterward and how it is looking now. Last picture is of the spear I pulled out and shows length and it being rotten at the end. So do I cut down the top until I pass through the rotten part of just add copper solution and hope for the best?

Edited May 26, 2021 by Npeterh

[Npeterh]

So all the fonds it had were damaged and turned brown so I cut them off at the top. The little green is what is left of the newest fonds that still were shooing out.

 

[JLM]

Not sure what should be done here, if the new growth turned brown then you need to trunk cut ASAP. Cut down until the rot stops, you can make your first cut all the way down where the spear rotted, then work you way down from there. Just dont cut below the meristem, if you do its gone. Would wait for other's opinions before cutting though. Also, your Bismarckia doesnt look like a Bismarckia to me.

Edited May 26, 2021 by JLM

[Jtee]

  On 5/26/2021 at 9:27 PM, JLM said:

Not sure what should be done here, if the new growth turned brown then you need to trunk cut ASAP. Cut down until the rot stops, you can make your first cut all the way down where the spear rotted, then work you way down from there. Just dont cut below the meristem, if you do its gone. Would wait for other's opinions before cutting though. Also, your Bismarckia doesnt look like a Bismarckia to me.

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The fronds look like it but my bizmark had pale purple colored fronds due to cold damage. 

[JLM]

  On 5/26/2021 at 9:31 PM, Jtee said:

The fronds look like it but my bizmark had pale purple colored fronds due to cold damage. 

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Now that i look at the image a little closer, it has fur stuff (dont remember what its called) on the trunk, didnt think Bismarckias had that. My baby Bizzy is straight up purple right now, it hasnt experienced temperatures below 50F before in its life (recently planted).

[Collectorpalms]

  On 5/26/2021 at 8:52 PM, Npeterh said:

So here are my pics. First one is of my Bismarck which survived and is now shooting out its fourth fond so far!

Then my queen from last fall, wrapped in multiple frost cloth layers with Christmas lights. How it looked afterward and how it is looking now. Last picture is of the spear I pulled out and shows length and it being rotten at the end. So do I cut down the top until I pass through the rotten part of just add copper solution and hope for the best?

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By the way, Just to clarify, that is a Brahea Armata, not a Bismarckia palm. 

[Npeterh]

Yeah I have always felt it didn't look quite like a Bismarck but I bought at a pretty knowledgeable plant school and I still have the label stating Bismarck...

I did see a relatively much bigger Brahea Armata at a nursery and it looked different to mine. It does grow slow though that is for sure but surprisingly fast this year so it just sent out its fourth new fond since the freeze back in mid February. Granted first two fonds did poorly and were a bit damaged. But the last two look great. So that would explain it being more hardy than a Bismarck? 

[Npeterh]

So what is the advice, I cut it back by almost two feet? That is what it will take to get down to the level of rot.

Really not helped by continuous rain we have had in May. I am covering it whenever I see rain in the forecast.

I read somewhere that Queens might come back but they can be putting out new growth but still be dying not sure if that is the case here. I 

did cut back my middle size Queen several times and it has show up some new growth but again it was a bit rotten so I think that one is probably gone.My big Queen has a lot of green left on the the trunk so I hope that is a good sign.

[PalmatierMeg]

I suggest you dump the queens and replace them with mule palms. Much cold hardier and better looking.

[Fusca]

  On 5/26/2021 at 10:03 PM, Npeterh said:

Yeah I have always felt it didn't look quite like a Bismarck but I bought at a pretty knowledgeable plant school and I still have the label stating Bismarck...

I did see a relatively much bigger Brahea Armata at a nursery and it looked different to mine. It does grow slow though that is for sure but surprisingly fast this year so it just sent out its fourth new fond since the freeze back in mid February. Granted first two fonds did poorly and were a bit damaged. But the last two look great. So that would explain it being more hardy than a Bismarck? 

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Your photo may be a bit deceiving because it looks like the leaf petioles have thorns.  Trunk and leaf petioles resemble Brahea armata.  Are there sharp thorns on the leaf petioles?  If so it's Brahea.

[Npeterh]

Hi,

I just checked and no sharp thorns, see picture in closeup.  When it comes to replacing Queen with Mule palms it is almost impossible to get hold of a mule palm this season due to so many palms dying in Texas. At least not sharp ones.

Also showing my small Queen which against all odds survived outdoors. Reason it is in a pot is that I took it for dead, dug it up and reapplied it was alive so it will be in a pote for a few more weeks. Just amazed this little guys survived!

 

[smatofu]

Hi,

here is the problem with pouring copper or hydrogen peroxide: the spear is so compacted in the crownshaft that no medication can get deep enough.

I would cut until you get to firm and white tissue, then you can soak with copper.  Protect from rain.

 

Watch insects/flies, they are attracted by rot. You will know the palm is getting better when you don't see flies around it. 

 

 

[Fusca]

  On 5/27/2021 at 11:20 PM, Npeterh said:

Hi,

I just checked and no sharp thorns, see picture in closeup.  When it comes to replacing Queen with Mule palms it is almost impossible to get hold of a mule palm this season due to so many palms dying in Texas. At least not sharp ones.

Also showing my small Queen which against all odds survived outdoors. Reason it is in a pot is that I took it for dead, dug it up and reapplied it was alive so it will be in a pote for a few more weeks. Just amazed this little guys survived!

 

 

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I see saw-like teeth on that photo (thorns).  Not huge like Washingtonia thorns but still thorns that will get larger as the palm ages.  If you rub your finger up and down the edge of the petiole you'll feel the sharp teeth.  Bismarckia do not have this characteristic so it's definitely Brahea armata.

[Jimhardy]

If you can cut down to healthy tissue you don't need any treatment.

Fungal infections thrive if these 3 things are present, dark,warm and no air movement...

I guess you could add moisture as a 4th-when you cut it you remove all  issues.

[smatofu]

  On 5/28/2021 at 11:32 AM, Jimhardy said:

If you can cut down to healthy tissue you don't need any treatment.

Fungal infections thrive if these 3 things are present, dark,warm and no air movement...

I guess you could add moisture as a 4th-when you cut it you remove all  issues.

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Yes, you are right about those conditions that promote bacteria/fungal growth. They should be eliminated 1st if possible. 

However, copper and peroxide offer some help. I saw reduction of insect activity and foul smell after every copper/peroxide bath. 

I think peroxide loses its power a few hours after application so remove it from the crownshaft.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by smatofu

[Reyes Vargas]

  On 5/27/2021 at 11:20 PM, Npeterh said:

Hi,

I just checked and no sharp thorns, see picture in closeup.  When it comes to replacing Queen with Mule palms it is almost impossible to get hold of a mule palm this season due to so many palms dying in Texas. At least not sharp ones.

Also showing my small Queen which against all odds survived outdoors. Reason it is in a pot is that I took it for dead, dug it up and reapplied it was alive so it will be in a pote for a few more weeks. Just amazed this little guys survived!

 

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This is my Bismarckia as you can see it has nothing.  It is completely smooth.  You probably do have Brahea armata like @Fusca says.

[Npeterh]

Yeah, definitely looks like I don't have a Bismarck. Disappointed in one aspect since I was so happy about making a Bismarck survive our deep winter freeze, -2F! 

But on the other hand I now know it is a hardy kind and hopefully might grow a bit faster than a Bismarck. plus they both look really good!

I will cut down my queen until I see healthy tissue and then treat a bit more and hope for the best.

 

Thanks for all the advice! I am glad I found this forum.

[JLM]

  On 5/28/2021 at 5:37 PM, Npeterh said:

Yeah, definitely looks like I don't have a Bismarck. Disappointed in one aspect since I was so happy about making a Bismarck survive our deep winter freeze, -2F! 

But on the other hand I now know it is a hardy kind and hopefully might grow a bit faster than a Bismarck. plus they both look really good!

I will cut down my queen until I see healthy tissue and then treat a bit more and hope for the best.

 

Thanks for all the advice! I am glad I found this forum.

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Keep us posted on any changes! Hoping the best for you and your Queens!

[Npeterh]

I just cut off my big Queen at 2 feet lower and after 24 hours I see an inch of new leaf already. So a good sign but too early to tell if it will survive.

My mid size Queen is gone.

To my dismay one of my two Washginton hybrids isn't looking very well. Cut back quite a bit over the weekend to remove any rotting area but not sure f it will be sufficient.
What is the best one, the filifera or the hybrid Filibusta? Around here in North Texas I have only found the hybrid, never any filifera.
Is Filifera more hardy and how is it's growth speed, better or worse than Filibusta? Any reason not to go just for Filifera instead of hybrid if I can find one?

[aegean]

Theoretically a pure W. Filifera should be most cold hardy, but grows slower than any hybrid.  The faster hybrids grow, the more dominant is the Robusta part and so the less cold hardy they are.  I don't think there are any miracle Filibustas out there with Robusta like growth and Filifera like hardiness.

[Fusca]

  On 6/1/2021 at 2:56 AM, Npeterh said:

What is the best one, the filifera or the hybrid Filibusta? Around here in North Texas I have only found the hybrid, never any filifera.
Is Filifera more hardy and how is it's growth speed, better or worse than Filibusta? Any reason not to go just for Filifera instead of hybrid if I can find one?

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In North Texas I would try to get W. filifera.  They still grow fast given a lot of heat and will survive/stay green a lot longer.  At some point when they develop a lot of trunk they are difficult to trim as they retain their dead fronds a LONG time.  Some folks like the petticoat look of dead fronds but it can become a nesting place for undesirable critters.  W. filifera are difficult to find in local nurseries and big box stores which often sell the hybrid filbusta labeled as "robusta" or "filifera".  If you see leaves that are glossy green or have minimal cottony fibers they are not filifera.

[Npeterh]

Anyone know where I can find a Filifera in Dallas Fort Worth area?

Also Mule palm in North Texas, anyone have any lead?

Many thanks!

[Npeterh]

Ok, so here is a status update. Picture of my Queen attached. This is almost 2 weeks after cutting it down to remove any rot. I believe I was successful in this but what do you think? Pic 1.

Also there are pictures of my two W hybrids which the one with the most might survive I am not sure while the other looks terrible in. jy view and have not grown half an inch since I cut it back. I do be3live it is a hybrid due to trunk diameter, last picture.

Should I just give up and look for a Filifera to replace the one unlikely to survive? it is now June so it should be shooting out new growth in my view.

 

[NBTX11]

All look like they might recover.  What protection methods did you use.  The fact that they are showing any life is impressive, considering how cold you got.  Many of our Robusta are just now pushing green fronds.  

[Npeterh]

I used many layers of burlap and frost cloth. I also had Christmas lights but thanks to the constant power outages they were not nearly as functional like they should have been. I had 8 hours without power on the coldest night....

If I had a chance to redo I would have cut off the remaining leaves so I could have covered it more effectively.

So you really thin k they might make it? The one that show a leaf already I have some hopes for but the other I don't know if I should cut back a bit more and see if there is more rot or not.

Thoughts?

Edited June 13, 2021 by Npeterh

[NBTX11]

The queen and one washingtonia definitely look like they will recover.  The other washingtonia looks like it might recover.  As long as it is moving, leave it be.  When it stops moving, then start worrying.

[Collectorpalms]

I had mature butia x Syagrus that I wrapped and they all died. I also had a large Queen that died. So those xmas lights made all the difference, even if they were off for a few hours. Wrapping did no good and I was warmer than DFW. The duration of the event killed them. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Collectorpalms

[Npeterh]

One of the Washingtonia that looks worst I could pull up a rotten fond about half a foot. Question is can I cut it down with another half foot or will I get too close to the heart of the palm? Maybe it doesn't matter since it smells bad so it might be beyond salvation.

[Npeterh]

Collectorpalms, where are you located in Texas? interested to hear about how old/big your butia x Syagrus were? I have tried with no luck to get some at least medium sized. Did buy a few really smal ones but they have to be in a greenhouse over winter to stand a chance.

You are right Christmas lights makes all the difference that is why my hybrids didn't make it. Funny enough a small Queen did and hopefully my largest one as well as per picture above.

[buffy]

Stop buying big size mules. You're wasting your time and money.  5 gallons can establish themselves quick and run down the bigger material pretty quickly.

[Collectorpalms]

  On 6/14/2021 at 7:06 PM, buffy said:

Stop buying big size mules. You're wasting your time and money.  5 gallons can establish themselves quick and run down the bigger material pretty quickly.

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In 2018 I had several 5 gallon size mules die after the forecast of 17 busted and I hit 14.5. While all my large ones sailed through. So if your trying to grow them in areas that regularly are in the teens, I’d still go with largest affordable mule. 

[Collectorpalms]

  On 6/14/2021 at 3:25 PM, Npeterh said:

Collectorpalms, where are you located in Texas? interested to hear about how old/big your butia x Syagrus were? I have tried with no luck to get some at least medium sized. Did buy a few really smal ones but they have to be in a greenhouse over winter to stand a chance.

You are right Christmas lights makes all the difference that is why my hybrids didn't make it. Funny enough a small Queen did and hopefully my largest one as well as per picture above.

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It only got to 4*F, 3 hours south of Dallas. 
the largest ones were up to 20 feet tall. I did grow them from about 3 or 5 gallon size. They were between 10-15 years old. 

[buffy]

  On 6/14/2021 at 7:21 PM, Collectorpalms said:

In 2018 I had several 5 gallon size mules die after the forecast of 17 busted and I hit 14.5. While all my large ones sailed through. So if your trying to grow them in areas that regularly are in the teens, I’d still go with largest affordable mule. 

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So we can differ on this, and that's OK. It's a lot easier to protect a 5 gallon mule for 14.5F than a 30 gallon. The 5 gallons seem to explode with growth within about a year of planting them, whereas, most of the big ones drag their feet for awhile before picking up the pace. It's anecdotal, for sure, but its been a very clear, predictable trend for me. 

For me, I don't even waste time on queen mules anymore. They're heavy, heavy feeders and spot up with cold temps. If you irrigate a bunch or have sandy soils, you're gonna be tossing fertilizer at those things all the time. When they're well cared for, they do look great. I'm finding the Butia hybrids with Jubaea, Parajubaea and Lytocaryum much more nutrient friendly with no real penalty on cold hardiness.  And very little spotting.

[Npeterh]

I would have gone for 5G Mules if I could find them. I called countless nurseries around North Texas and they are more or less out of palms. 

Got these small ones from Florida so will have to take them into my greenhouse in winter. They have to be easier to care for than Queen palms, or?

Edited June 14, 2021 by Npeterh

[smatofu]

  On 6/14/2021 at 2:50 PM, Collectorpalms said:

I had mature butia x Syagrus that I wrapped and they all died. I also had a large Queen that died. So those xmas lights made all the difference, even if they were off for a few hours. Wrapping did no good and I was warmer than DFW. The duration of the event killed them. 

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What were your palms wrapped with?

Thinking about heating... Yes, Xmas lights are better than nothing, but in my opinion a heating cable is much better: LED xmas lights don't generate much heat; incandescent lights are unreliable and too hot to cover with a blanket. 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by smatofu

[Npeterh]

So I just cut back the worst looking palm and found more rot now it is less than2 feed of trunk left and I would have to cut another foot to get below rot. It is toast!

Might just go for 2 windmills on the front since it is facing north, at least dont have to worry about future winters. My 20 year old Windmill came through fine except dropping last years fonds. 

Going with a Florida Sable seems almost as risky as going for another Washingtonia hybrid.

 

[smatofu]

  On 6/16/2021 at 4:38 AM, Npeterh said:

So I just cut back the worst looking palm and found more rot now it is less than2 feed of trunk left and I would have to cut another foot to get below rot. It is toast!

Might just go for 2 windmills on the front since it is facing north, at least dont have to worry about future winters. My 20 year old Windmill came through fine except dropping last years fonds. 

Going with a Florida Sable seems almost as risky as going for another Washingtonia hybrid.

 

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I am North of Dallas. All my palms have survived but barely. 

[at least dont have to worry about future winters.] Yes, unfortunately that's the tough reality! We have to adjust our expectations to reality.

In addition, even with cold-hardy palms there is a lot of work protecting them from freeze.

The winter thought me a lot; I will be better prepared for next freezes!