Help with a struggling trachycarpus fortunei

[kozel_93]

Purchased a trachycarpus fortunei from a local nursery & planted last spring. Gets partial sun, sheltered in corner of garden. Mostly clay soil but I amended it with plenty of potting mix. Everything else we planted last year has been thriving, but this windmill is looking pretty rough. 

First two are from right now. Leaves are obviously shriveling/browning. Second two pictures are after planting last spring with healthier fronds.  No evidence of growth, but no spear pull yet. Perhaps what worries me even more is the small plant still feels incredibly wobbly, like it was just dropped in the ground and hasn't rooted out at all. 

At what point should these start to feel more solidly rooted? Is this a lost cause? Nursery has a year-long guarantee, so if it's toast I can probably dig it up and get store credit, but my window of time for that is quickly narrowing. 

Located in 7a (bordering on 7b) in central Virginia, where we just had a relatively minor winter, so I don't think cold was an issue. 

Thanks! 

Edited April 21, 2021 by jons0027
correcting order of images

[Allen]

you may have made a 'clay pot' in the ground by digging a hole and amending so much.  I would pack the soil around it with my foot and mark spear and older frond with marker at same point to see if it is growing.  If spear doesn't feel firm i'd spray with copper fungicide or peroxide in there.

[kozel_93]

Thanks Allen. I will try the marker trick. 

[NCFM]

I had something similar happen to a 3gal windmill I planted last May.  Unfortunately I was unable to save it.  When you planted the palm did you rip up or "massage" the rootball at all?  Apparently that can cause them to slowly decline (something I learned the hard way)

Edited April 22, 2021 by NC_Palm_Enthusiast

[kozel_93]

You know what, I might have out of habit. I don't recall specifically, but I know I usually follow that conventional wisdom when planting in general.

Good to know that's a bad idea with trachys. 

[NCFM]

That may well be your issue then.  Apparently trachycarpus, sabals, and many other palms are very root sensitive.  I always just leave the roots bound when planting now and I haven't had any issues since.  

[DAVEinMB]

I dunno, I manually dug up and planted a number of large windmills and beat the hell out of the roots in the process. Years later they're doing fine. I have lost a couple smaller trachies because of soil tho which may be the case here. It goes against popular belief but my best looking trachies are planted in very sandy soil. 

[NCFM]

  On 4/25/2021 at 3:29 PM, DAVEinMB said:

I dunno, I manually dug up and planted a number of large windmills and beat the hell out of the roots in the process. Years later they're doing fine. I have lost a couple smaller trachies because of soil tho which may be the case here. It goes against popular belief but my best looking trachies are planted in very sandy soil. 

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Hmm.  Maybe the smaller specimens are more root sensitive because the growth point is still underground?  I know that's why you can't field dig sabal palmettos until they reach about 6 feet of trunk, but not sure if that translates to windmills as well

[GregVirginia7]

  On 4/22/2021 at 5:30 PM, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

I had something similar happen to a 3gal windmill I planted last May.  Unfortunately I was unable to save it.  When you planted the palm did you rip up or "massage" the rootball at all?  Apparently that can cause them to slowly decline (something I learned the hard way)

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My thought exactly, having been there, done that...lost the palm, but that palm declined very quickly...no expert here but sure sounds like a longer duration root issue to me, especially with the instability...I’d go with Allen on this one. It’s been a very wet and cool April so far in our region so maybe the roots are waterlogged of just too wet for too long? Guess replanting would just add insult to injury...

[kozel_93]

Thanks for the help everyone. Given how unstable it feels, I really doubt there's been any root development since planting.  Since I don't have much to lose, at this point I'm going to dig it up, inspect the roots and if it looks like salvaging, try it in a container with pure well draining potting mix/compost, just to give it one last chance to bounce back.

I've had a couple trachys fail in my garden now, and am starting to think it's my clay soil. Any advice on whether I might have better luck buying a larger plant with a more developed root ball, given my poor soil conditions? Willing to invest some $$$ at this point given the frustration of having few seasons now of failed attempts.

Also, if any Virginia region folks can recommend nurseries let me know. Thanks!

[GregVirginia7]

 

  On 4/25/2021 at 5:46 PM, jons0027 said:

Thanks for the help everyone. Given how unstable it feels, I really doubt there's been any root development since planting.  Since I don't have much to lose, at this point I'm going to dig it up, inspect the roots and if it looks like salvaging, try it in a container with pure well draining potting mix/compost, just to give it one last chance to bounce back.

I've had a couple trachys fail in my garden now, and am starting to think it's my clay soil. Any advice on whether I might have better luck buying a larger plant with a more developed root ball, given my poor soil conditions? Willing to invest some $$$ at this point given the frustration of having few seasons now of failed attempts.

Also, if any Virginia region folks can recommend nurseries let me know. Thanks!

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I’m all clay here north of you. My Trachy is on an embankment facing south and has done really well...hard to see in the picture, but the rise in the ground is 4-feet or so...I don’t think your soil is the problem as long as it can drain...the Trachy has runoff and water never sits...I have a Needle (behind that blue metal flower) that sits in a basin of clay soil and collects a lot of runoff and It’s doing great, too... But Needles don’t mind that...I say all this of course, knocking on my wooden end table...don’t know about your placement situation but maybe better drainage will be the key? Regarding our heavy clay based soil...I think drainage and not soil amendment is the ticket.

[kozel_93]

Greg, my garden plot is completely level. Any advice for improve drainage in clay on level ground? My layout won't allow me to create an embankment. 

[GregVirginia7]

  On 4/26/2021 at 5:51 PM, jons0027 said:

Greg, my garden plot is completely level. Any advice for improve drainage in clay on level ground? My layout won't allow me to create an embankment. 

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Now I’m no expert...but if the spot is perpetually soggy, it may not be the best location but if it’s just normally moist you may want to try a raised bed that is mostly the soil on site with a bit of amendment but I’ve not really amended for any of my palms and my clay is heavy...though I have noticed it has a fair amount of sand in it that leaches out...anyway, maybe mound up a bed that can sort of house it up and out of a wet hole that will hold water too long...guess the worry then would be to make sure the surface of the mound doesn’t compact too tightly so water runs off too fast but a nice layer of mulch would help with that for sure...hope that helps...

  On 4/26/2021 at 5:51 PM, jons0027 said:

Greg, my garden plot is completely level. Any advice for improve drainage in clay on level ground? My layout won't allow me to create an embankment. 

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[Chester B]

FYI - browning leaves, and ones that start to close up is usually a sign of drought stress.  These palms love water and can take standing water for a few months of the year.  Clay soil is preferred.

I don't live in Virginia, but I can tell you what I think from my own experience and others in my area. 

I think it may be too hot a spot and not enough water.  I've had them struggle in hotter spots in my yard, while they establish but never in wet shady ones.  If you tried to break up the roots and massage them out that is a big problem.  I tried it with one of mine and it took three years before it started growing again.  Digging them up and transplanting them doesn't seem to bother them nearly as much.  The fact that it is wobbly sounds like there is a problem with the roots.  However I don't think your palm looks all that bad?  Like I already mentioned I had a few that struggled to establish in hot spots in my yard in sandy soil and they looked a lot worse than yours does now.  Today, although it's taken over 2 years they are looking pretty decent.

This is the one palm nursery by me, these palms are doing great still.  If you go to his property in winter or spring many of his palms are sitting in an inch or so of standing water.  The water table is very high on the property and a stream runs through it.  Poor drainage is not an issue I am aware of, if it were I would have no palms left.  My neighborhood is clay and has underground streams that run throughout, some peoples basements even.  I have two flows that go around either side of my house, all I can say my yard is a soppy mess for many months of the year.

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Chester B

[kozel_93]

Based one everyone's advice, I "dug" up the palm (the roots system is so unhealthy there wasn't much to dig out) so I could completely re-do the planting area. I have a small urban garden, so I can't just pick another spot in the yard. The struggling trachy is now in a pot with well draining potting mix. If it recovers I'll let you all know! 

I cleared out the previous planting site and built up a small raised bed (5 in elevated) using some old bricks, to ensure my next attempt isn't just sitting in water. 

If I can bug everyone for one more piece of advice, I'm seeing very conflicting stuff about watering for newly planted trachys, and I presume a lot of that has to do with local climate/rainfall variations. I'm in 7A/7B, with hot & very humid summers and fairly consistent precipitation.  Any advice on watering, for both my soon to come replacement in the ground and my transplanted one that I just potted? Online you see everything from "can't over-water it" to "just leave it alone, they don't need much" but of course the advice is coming from completely different climate zones (UK, pacific NW, California, etc). 

[cm05]

I have zero experience with clay soil, but ultimately the watering requirements are really specific to your palm and how quickly your soil is drying out, I wouldn’t say there’s a one size fits all approach. I use a soil moisture meter to get a better sense of how quickly my plants are dying out and my Trachy’s are some of my thirstiest plants in general.

Newly planted palms definitely appreciate a bit more water than established palms, but I wouldn’t overdo it after the first few waterings. I use Espoma’s Biotone when planting literally anything and it helps to get the roots established quicker.

[DAVEinMB]

Just some food for thought. 

I'm by no means arguing that trachies don't like a lot of water - there's a bunch of examples of why that statement would be inaccurate. I am, however, saying that's not always the case. 

Here are some pics of the two trachies that I referenced in an earlier post. These are both sited in a southeastern spot near my house (very warm spot in my yard, tons of sun) and have roughly 150 - 200 lbs of sand immediately around their root balls with French drains running on both sides of them. In addition to this they both share their planting locations with a number of other plants so they are competing for water. They get some supplemental watering but not much. 

[Chester B]

  On 4/28/2021 at 12:44 PM, jons0027 said:

Online you see everything from "can't over-water it"

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This.  Especially in free draining soil.

I'm going to have to stick my guns on this one.  Hundreds of local palms don't lie, with them being here for decades.  Trachys don't like it dry and don't love high heat.   They die here in summer if not watered but don't die in winter when its cold and soaking wet.  They love our springtime where it's 60s and 70s with rain still falling and cool nights.

[Chester B]

  On 4/28/2021 at 5:08 PM, DAVEinMB said:

Here are some pics of the two trachies that I referenced in an earlier post. These are both sited in a southeastern spot near my house (very warm spot in my yard, tons of sun) and have roughly 150 - 200 lbs of sand immediately around their root balls with French drains running on both sides of them. In addition to this they both share their planting locations with a number of other plants so they are competing for water. They get some supplemental watering but not much. 

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I think the difference here is during your active growing season, you get rain, and a ton of it, so no need for supplemental water in summer when it's hot.  I see about 6"/month in the hottest months for your area.  Your highest rainfall totals occur in summer, where we get little to none often going 2 months with no measurable rainfall and sub 20% humidity.  Our rain falls in winter, when the plants are growing very slowly, if you had the amount of rain we did in summer they would be suffering, but your other droughty palms would still thrive.  Summer is the one time of year I hope for some rain.

So perhaps soil type doesn't play as much of a factor in your area since you are blessed with summer rain/downpours.  I'm assuming the bulk of it comes from afternoon T-storms.

[DAVEinMB]

  On 4/28/2021 at 5:29 PM, Chester B said:

I think the difference here is during your active growing season, you get rain, and a ton of it, so no need for supplemental water in summer when it's hot.  I see about 6"/month in the hottest months for your area.  Your highest rainfall totals occur in summer, where we get little to none often going 2 months with no measurable rainfall and sub 20% humidity.  Our rain falls in winter, when the plants are growing very slowly, if you had the amount of rain we did in summer they would be suffering, but your other droughty palms would still thrive.  Summer is the one time of year I hope for some rain.

So perhaps soil type doesn't play as much of a factor in your area since you are blessed with summer rain/downpours.  I'm assuming the bulk of it comes from afternoon T-storms.

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Yea the summer is easily the wettest time of the year but a torrential downpour isn't out of the question really for any month haha. That said, there are areas of my yard that never really seem to completely dry out and areas that stay consistently on the drier side. The location of these 2 trachies falls into the latter category. The combination of being at a high spot in the yard, heavily sand amended soil, French drain network with additional sand and gravel, and dense planting all lends to that.

Just an example that goes against what seems to be the accepted norm for this species. 

[Chester B]

  On 4/29/2021 at 12:35 PM, DAVEinMB said:

Yea the summer is easily the wettest time of the year but a torrential downpour isn't out of the question really for any month haha. That said, there are areas of my yard that never really seem to completely dry out and areas that stay consistently on the drier side. The location of these 2 trachies falls into the latter category. The combination of being at a high spot in the yard, heavily sand amended soil, French drain network with additional sand and gravel, and dense planting all lends to that.

Just an example that goes against what seems to be the accepted norm for this species. 

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If it ain't broke don't fix it- right? 

 

[GregVirginia7]

  On 4/28/2021 at 12:44 PM, jons0027 said:

Based one everyone's advice, I "dug" up the palm (the roots system is so unhealthy there wasn't much to dig out) so I could completely re-do the planting area. I have a small urban garden, so I can't just pick another spot in the yard. The struggling trachy is now in a pot with well draining potting mix. If it recovers I'll let you all know! 

I cleared out the previous planting site and built up a small raised bed (5 in elevated) using some old bricks, to ensure my next attempt isn't just sitting in water. 

If I can bug everyone for one more piece of advice, I'm seeing very conflicting stuff about watering for newly planted trachys, and I presume a lot of that has to do with local climate/rainfall variations. I'm in 7A/7B, with hot & very humid summers and fairly consistent precipitation.  Any advice on watering, for both my soon to come replacement in the ground and my transplanted one that I just potted? Online you see everything from "can't over-water it" to "just leave it alone, they don't need much" but of course the advice is coming from completely different climate zones (UK, pacific NW, California, etc). 

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Got this one in the ground about 3 weeks ago...my planting routine is to dig a whole about 2” wider than the root ball and work the soil I’ve dug out really well with my hands to break it up...I throw some Osmocote in and mix well. Without disturbing the rootball, I place it in its new home and work the dug out soil in about halfway up the rootball, pushing it down lightly with my fingers...then I add a gallon or so of collected rainwater and wait till it drains down (hopefully not too long) Once drained, I fill the whole the rest of the way with the soil but stop about 2” from the top...gently tamp it down and give it another soaking dose...after that drains out I finish filling with dirt and add a layer of mulch, then give it one last shot of water...that’ll sit for the first week unwatered, then, the following week, I’ll add a gallon or so of water slowly so it all sinks in and doesn’t run off. I also add a teaspoon of Epsom salts to the first weekly watering I do with the watering can. The Epsom salts thing is once every month or so for good root health till hot summer hits then I lay off that. I’ll water this new palm once a week with my gallon watering can unless there’s been a lot of rain, then I won’t water...I have a limited number of palms and have found the gallon watering can to be the best way to water. Sometimes I’ll work up the soil with the hand rake so the water sinks in better but it’s a great way to really saturate the area around the palm and add things like fertilizers, molasses...it really targets the base of the palm and keeps the crowns dry. Since your growing area is limited as well, it may be a good way to approach watering. I don’t use a sprinkler unless there’s a serious drought going on and even then under very low pressure to keep it as low and slow as possible and the crowns dry. Advise is indeed all over the place but I’ve found this routine works well in our climate and clay soil...clay does a nice job of holding on to moisture. Learning how to work with that and succeeding is part of the fun.

[Chester B]

You can overhead water Trachycarpus they don’t care. I actually water the crowns on mine if I’m hand watering with the hose during very dry periods. I also hit them with the lawn sprinkler. 
 

Now with Brahea and Jubaea I avoid getting their crowns wet in summer. 

[GregVirginia7]

  On 4/30/2021 at 12:50 AM, Chester B said:

You can overhead water Trachycarpus they don’t care. I actually water the crowns on mine if I’m hand watering with the hose during very dry periods. I also hit them with the lawn sprinkler. 
 

Now with Brahea and Jubaea I avoid getting their crowns wet in summer. 

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True...the palms design even seems to direct water down to the crown from its upper leaves...probably way too cautious about crown funguses but I’ve had some bouts with them and Just let the rain handle the top parts...would you water a Mediterranean Fan like a Brahea and Judaea?

[Chester B]

  On 4/30/2021 at 1:04 AM, GregVirginia7 said:

True...the palms design even seems to direct water down to the crown from its upper leaves...probably way too cautious about crown funguses but I’ve had some bouts with them and Just let the rain handle the top parts...would you water a Mediterranean Fan like a Brahea and Judaea?

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If I am hand watering I'll water around the base, but they get hit with the lawn sprinkler (manual) and don't seem to care.  I try not to get the ceriifera/argentea wet as it slowly washes off the blue glaucous coating.  I don't overhead water Butia either.

A lot of my palms will develop black spots from winter moisture, especially in extremely wet years.  The only types that do not experience this are Trachycarpus, Sabals, needle palms and Chamaerops, so this is my guide.  These all come from wet humid places aside from Chamaerops, so I figure they experience moisture in their crowns in their natural habitat without issue.