Brainstorm: Cheap heat source protection ideas

[Swolte]

I have been thinking about protecting palms in extreme freezes. Moving palms indoors or protection with a heat source seems to be most effective, however, moving palms is not always practical for everyone and some palms hate their root systems disturbed. I know folks use Christmas lights but they aren't always ideal either. In severe freezes, power outages may render then ineffective. Also, a lot of palm are in locations where there's no power. 

I was wondering whether there are any low cost, battery-powered products that may generate heat and can be wrapped around a trunk. I am guessing this mostly applies to small and medium-sized palms. I have found battery powered heating blankets for less than $30 and heated socks for less than $20! Has anyone tried this? Any other ideas?

I guess one could wrap them around the trunk and then have a frost blanket, or something, cover the palm to allow for heat build-up. I think, as long as the heat source is somewhat insulated, it should be effective (I think a hurricane cut may be inevitable with the larger palms). Batteries can be replaced if storms last several days.

Just so frustrating to lose palms one has nurtured for years to a predictable one-off event that may only occur once in a lifetime (let's be honest, we saw this coming as a realistic possibility more than a week before it hit).

[ahosey01]

I always thought one of these would be good.  Loud, though:

https://www.grainger.com/product/32MY59?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&ef_id=CjwKCAiAmrOBBhA0EiwArn3mfJPDXdOkWZ1-3R6Rmlf27_e_E-lCPxBxeg2B4cWjM1Z_V1R9p3_OXhoC1VMQAvD_BwE:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!264955915919!!!g!437257756459!&gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gclid=CjwKCAiAmrOBBhA0EiwArn3mfJPDXdOkWZ1-3R6Rmlf27_e_E-lCPxBxeg2B4cWjM1Z_V1R9p3_OXhoC1VMQAvD_BwE

[Allen]

Batteries will never be able to heat anything significantly.  The most effective solution is still Christmas lights and a generator if that is what you need for power outages.  

To address the battery issue quickly, 

Assume a large car battery, from google" A 12v 20 amp hour battery can provide 12 watts for 20 hours, or 240 watts for 1 hour. Of course you need to half these watt ratings if you want it to last any meaningful amounts of recharges. Automotive batteries generally aren't rated in amp hour capacity. Cold cranking amps is irrelevant to your question."

A strand of mini lights is 40 watts and many times you would need multiple strands per palm.  A typical 15 amp outside outlet is rated for 1800 watts or powering a maximum of 45 strands of mini lights.  

watts = heat and you will need equivalent of 2-3 car batteries per palm per night to pull the battery thing off and charge them daily.

[jwitt]

8 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

I always thought one of these would be good.  Loud, though:

https://www.grainger.com/product/32MY59?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&ef_id=CjwKCAiAmrOBBhA0EiwArn3mfJPDXdOkWZ1-3R6Rmlf27_e_E-lCPxBxeg2B4cWjM1Z_V1R9p3_OXhoC1VMQAvD_BwE:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!264955915919!!!g!437257756459!&gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gclid=CjwKCAiAmrOBBhA0EiwArn3mfJPDXdOkWZ1-3R6Rmlf27_e_E-lCPxBxeg2B4cWjM1Z_V1R9p3_OXhoC1VMQAvD_BwE

The small one is enough to heat a small 2 bedroom house!   I could see one of those blowing on that jubea at the World aquarium in Dallas or that beautiful huge queen in College Station.  

Awesome!

[Allen]

29 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

I always thought one of these would be good.  Loud, though:

https://www.grainger.com/product/32MY59?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&ef_id=CjwKCAiAmrOBBhA0EiwArn3mfJPDXdOkWZ1-3R6Rmlf27_e_E-lCPxBxeg2B4cWjM1Z_V1R9p3_OXhoC1VMQAvD_BwE:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!264955915919!!!g!437257756459!&gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gclid=CjwKCAiAmrOBBhA0EiwArn3mfJPDXdOkWZ1-3R6Rmlf27_e_E-lCPxBxeg2B4cWjM1Z_V1R9p3_OXhoC1VMQAvD_BwE

It will waste a lot of heat to the outside and you will have to be careful how it is aimed.  It will take a full propane bottle per night to run and you will need one for every medium size palm outdoor.   But it is a good idea for 1-2 nights for prize palms over 12-15 foot that are too large to wrap easily.

I think a lot of people will regret not protecting their palms using any method possible when they are faced with having to remove/replace them.  When they die everyone will say why didn't I cover/wrap that palm?

As far as cheap, the mini Christmas lights can be had for under $3 a box and are the safest most cost effective palm heat solution for any palm up to 10-12'.

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Allen

[Swolte]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

As far as cheap, the mini Christmas lights can be had for under $3 a box and are the safest most cost effective palm heat solution for any palm up to 10-12'.

Thanks Allan. Christmas lights are useless during outages and they still need a power source themselves nearby which is not as feasible for some. 

I am thinking about small to medium-sized (potentially hurricane cut) palms surviving (not thriving) for a night. Obviously the heat sources will be in an already insulated area (like several frost blankets/plastic bags). There should be a heat built up, even if the amount of watts is weak. Think about putting a heating sock around a Brahea Decumbens' base under a layer of hay, frost blankets, and plastic. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Swolte

[RJ]

I guess coming from the north having a generator was standard practice for every home much like it is for those that live in hurricane prone areas.  I figure at any given time my family has at least $500 of food in the fridge and freezer.  A generator is pretty cheap insurance not to mention frozen pipes that can cause thousands in water damage.  I actually have 3 generators. A small 3 kw inverter generator that can quietly run my appliances such as the Fridge and Freezers as well as the furnace. This unit would be pretty much useless for those that have heat pumps however. I then have two diesel generators an 8kw powered by a small 3 cyl kubota and then a lager 25kw unit powered by a 4 cyl deutz diesel that is overkill but I have it just to have it. 

[Allen]

1 hour ago, Swolte said:

Thanks Allan. Christmas lights are useless during outages and they still need a power source themselves nearby which is not as feasible for some. 

I am thinking about small to medium-sized (potentially hurricane cut) palms surviving (not thriving) for a night. Obviously the heat sources will be in an already insulated area (like several frost blankets/plastic bags). There should be a heat built up, even if the amount of watts is weak. Think about putting a heating sock around a Brahea Decumbens' base under a layer of hay, frost blankets, and plastic. 

The heating 'socks' on Amazon I looked up and they just don't put out a lot of heat.  Each sock has a 2200 mAh battery which when I ran some calculations is the equivalent heat output to running a single 40watt Christmas light strand for roughly 10 minutes.  A generator solves the power issue.  There are other non power methods to save smaller 6-8' palms such as enclosing them in a leaf cage, etc.  but must be prepared well in advance.   The battery operated heating won't work.  I have a 10' mule similar in size to the palm you wrapped at your house and with 2 strands of mini lights costing less than $6 and a cover it is sitting at 40F

Edited February 17, 2021 by Allen

[Jimhardy]

Christmas lights are the cheapest way and you can always unscrew some if its do warm in the enclosure...

limited by how much power you have? Use more insulation.

 

As far as the battery goes where would you put it

to keep it at a temp where it is most efficient? If you say theres no power won't it be cold inside too?

You can't put the battery in with the protection either because of moisture issues.

[Swolte]

49 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

You can't put the battery in with the protection either because of moisture issues.

Wrap it in a plastic bag? 

[amh]

You're in college station, there is bound to be an engineering student who could make you some sort of portable active solar water heater.

Edited February 19, 2021 by amh

[necturus]

I don't think anything battery powered will get you anywhere. Maybe a solar system with a backup battery, but that ain't cheap.  I never wanted to buy a generator, but at this point I think it's a must. Not just for prized palms but to protect your house! 

We don't talk about passive protection enough on here. For small palms, burying the base in dirt or covering them with straw, leaves, etc. may be enough to save the bud from these severe freezes. The citrus people are big on making mounds to protect the graft. While it's not the same, for clumpers or non-trunking palms this may be the difference between life or death. I wish I had done more of this.  

[Jimhardy]

Good point about the house....if I lost power in these kind of Arctic temps

I would lose more valuable/rare plants inside the house then outside.

[Swolte]

10 hours ago, amh said:

You're in college station, there is bound to be an engineering student who could make you some sort of portable active solar water heater.

Actually, that's not a bad idea. I know profs who need problems such as these for their student assignments... then again, the solution would ideally be something that everyone can easily and cheaply put together. 

To what extent does solar still help in such a blizzard, though? There were periods where I haven't seen the sun out for days and the coldest times are at the end of the night. 

I ordered a thermometer and a cheap heating sock to test how many degrees it adds if I place it under layers and layers of cheap insulation over time. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Swolte

[necturus]

2 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

Good point about the house....if I lost power in these kind of Arctic temps

I would lose more valuable/rare plants inside the house then outside.

Exactly. I have a rickety old detached garage with no insulation and lots of cracks. I filled it full of plants but became legit scared that I wasted my time when I heard the forecast for 5-7 degrees. I had bought some insulation to wrap outdoor pipes, so I used the remaining roll to plug cracks under the garage door and other areas where I could see daylight. I ran a small ceramic heater which doesn't really put out much heat, and of course we lost power the worst night when it dipped to 14 or whatever. The lowest the garage got was to 33 degrees, which was a small miracle. Everything inside looks fine, whereas outside is a mass plant casualty event. I think if we had gotten lower or the power outage had been longer I probably would've lost everything in there.

Sorry @Swolte for the diversion, but I just think there isn't really a cheap solution to this. I honestly think a generator is the cheapest solution at this point.

 

[amh]

5 hours ago, Swolte said:

Actually, that's not a bad idea. I know profs who need problems such as these for their student assignments... then again, the solution would ideally be something that everyone can easily and cheaply put together. 

To what extent does solar still help in such a blizzard, though? There were periods where I haven't seen the sun out for days and the coldest times are at the end of the night. 

I ordered a thermometer and a cheap heating sock to test how many degrees it adds if I place it under layers and layers of cheap insulation over time. 

There was a bit of jest in my statement, but it does have some basis in reality.

Really the only option is a gas generator or smudge pot. BTW my propane generator froze up below 10, so I had to switch to gasoline.

[Swolte]

9 hours ago, necturus said:

Sorry @Swolte for the diversion, but I just think there isn't really a cheap solution to this. I honestly think a generator is the cheapest solution at this point.

That was no diversion, kind sir! All ideas to keep palms alive whilst not relying on the grid are fair game! I just think there must be better solutions out there anno 2021.

I'd agree purchasing a special palm-protection generator to the yard, get some power bars and extension cords (protect it somewhat from the elements) and then running X-mas lights is probably the best one right now.  It'll be an investment of about $1000 all included, if not more. 

But really, we can't think of anything cheaper?!

I am still not convinced that effect of a weak battery-powered heat source under layers of plastic and insulation won't add much. The argument is that X-mas lights give off tons more heat than a (battery powered) heating sock or heating blanket. They probably do but heat should build up under insulation and may add a couple of degrees that could make a difference for a palm (I am not talking 20 degrees difference here but I will take 5F as a win).  I guess no one has tried it. Anyway, I'll test it myself next week and I'll keep everyone posted, even if it doesn't work, obviously... :p

[Tropicdoc]

How do y’all think Christmas lights compare to heat cables? Am I over killing it using heat cables?

[Allen]

1 hour ago, Tropicdoc said:

How do y’all think Christmas lights compare to heat cables? Am I over killing it using heat cables?

Self regulating heat tape can be used and is perfectly fine.  Xmas lights have a few advantages compared to heat tape, namely 5-10X lower cost, ease of visually seeing it working, ability to easily put more lights in the crown area for targeted heat and easier to place in certain palm areas.  Also Xmas lights are unlimited length since you can plug them end to end unlike heat tapes which must be sized to the palm or multiple ones plugged in at the same outlet. 

The heat tape is probably the durability winner though and many will say it is more waterproof and unlikely to burn the palm which mini lights wont burn either.  Also the aesthetic winner if you don't want neighbors seeing the lights thru the burlap or frostcloth wrap.

All heat sources should be thought of in total heat output (total watts).  I would recommend 10-30 watts per foot of total overall height of the palm depending on trunk diameter assuming you are wrapping the trunk up to the spear and wrapping with at least frost cloth OVER the lights or heat tape.  That will generally get you at least 10F over ambient.  Probably 20F depending on wrap.   This recommendation does not apply to palm boxes which can be insulated and have a single heat source anywhere in the box.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Allen

[Tropicdoc]

Tried a palm box made with foam insulation boards. It blew over even staked and bound.

my heat cables are very stiff and hard to wrap on the palm. Xmas lights may be easier but I have killed a small palm with too many lights before 

[Allen]

13 minutes ago, Tropicdoc said:

Tried a palm box made with foam insulation boards. It blew over even staked and bound.

my heat cables are very stiff and hard to wrap on the palm. Xmas lights may be easier but I have killed a small palm with too many lights before 

I assume you didn’t use a thermocube or used C7/C9 lights.  Anyway yes that is a good point, heat tape has a built in thermostat on the recommended models.   My standard setup is a thermocube by the spear with extra mini lights stuffed down into spear area and trunk wrapped.  Then trunk wrapped with frost cloth, fronds tied up and a round frost cloth over top with a pole for support.   

[Jimhardy]

I was the thermocube  my first few years of protecting palms etc....but that can be tough...

I got home an hour after sunset...once the sun went down it was -6F in the protection...it only

lasted for minutes and did not kill my T .Princeps...now I use the on35F off45F thermocubes

and don't have issues except for the occasional bad cube-but thats why you have a remote sensor

for temps in there in case you need to swap one out.

[Tropicdoc]

Is the frost cloth waterproof? Or do you have to overwrap with plastic?

[amh]

6 minutes ago, Tropicdoc said:

Is the frost cloth waterproof? Or do you have to overwrap with plastic?

No, it is not waterproof as it is porous.

[Allen]

9 minutes ago, Tropicdoc said:

Is the frost cloth waterproof? Or do you have to overwrap with plastic?

It's pretty water resistant.  if you tie up the fronds and put a pole or something in the middle to make it run off the palm will stay dry.

[Tropicdoc]

Could overwrap with shrink wrap. Or would that be too airtight and result In killing e palm?