Sabal spear pull

[JLM]

About 3-5 weeks ago i dug up a small sabal palmetto from a neighbors yard. She didnt want it, and told i could have it as long as i filled the hole back in. When i got it home, i noticed it was actually a double. Since they were out of the ground, i separated them. One was planted in place of my Roebeliniis and the other was planted in the backyard. I marked the spears on each palm to check for growth. I went outside earlier and lightly pulled on the spear of the one in the front yard and it popped out. I poured H2O2 into the hole and attempted to dry it up after it was done fizzing. I am assuming this is severe transplant shock, as there is nothing else that could have caused this. I'm questioning if it will live. Any thoughts??

Edited December 13, 2020 by JLM

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

I thought sabals were a no go for transplanting until they trunk. While the growing point is still under ground , makes them difficult to impossible to move. 

[JLM]

44 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

I thought sabals were a no go for transplanting until they trunk. While the growing point is still under ground , makes them difficult to impossible to move. 

The weird thing is, i got a decent sized rootball with those things. Im not 100% sure what happened.

[Jubaea_James760]

I use a mini excavator to dig 4 palms up from my old place to my new & 2 were Sabal's. A Sabal Uresana & a Sabal Pumos, the latter didn't make it. I planted the Uresana in a 15 gallon pot where it staled for a bit then continued growing.  2.5 years later it's still in the pot doing well. 

I made sure to not hit the underground trunk & to get a good rootball scoop. I just wanted to share my experience for what its worth. 

As far as your Palmettos spear pull I'm not sure... but I agree that it experienced transplant shock. The trauma from being dug up could have been too much for it. Maybe some Sabal's can take trauma better than other's? 

I hope the other one makes it, good luck! 

-James 

[PalmatierMeg]

Do you have photos? How large are these Sabals? Transplanting young Sabals is very tricky and usually leads to the death of the palm. The growing points are quite fragile while still underground. Attempts to dig them up fatally injures them. Before I learned about them I tried to transplant several Sabals I found in a vacant lot. Every one died.

[Jubaea_James760]

I was surprised that the Uresana made it. I expected both to parish but if I would have left them there they would have died either way. 

The Sabal Pumos was a 15 gallon when I planted it. The Sabal Uresana was a smallish 5 gallon. Both had been in the ground 4-5 years.

The wood fence is 6ft. high.

When I get home Tuesday I'll take a photo of the Uresana in it's pot.

 

[JLM]

3 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Do you have photos? How large are these Sabals? Transplanting young Sabals is very tricky and usually leads to the death of the palm. The growing points are quite fragile while still underground. Attempts to dig them up fatally injures them. Before I learned about them I tried to transplant several Sabals I found in a vacant lot. Every one died.

This is the largest of the two. Im hoping it pulls through, if not we might replace it with another roebelenii.

[Estlander]

12 hours ago, JLM said:

About 3-5 weeks ago i dug up a small sabal palmetto from a neighbors yard. She didnt want it, and told i could have it as long as i filled the hole back in. When i got it home, i noticed it was actually a double. Since they were out of the ground, i separated them. One was planted in place of my Roebeliniis and the other was planted in the backyard. I marked the spears on each palm to check for growth. I went outside earlier and lightly pulled on the spear of the one in the front yard and it popped out. I poured H2O2 into the hole and attempted to dry it up after it was done fizzing. I am assuming this is severe transplant shock, as there is nothing else that could have caused this. I'm questioning if it will live. Any thoughts??

How big was the Sabal you dug up? I have dug up several of them around  2ft. tall and all with palmate leaves and they’ve survived. 
A couple of a little larger ones I’ve dug up haven’t survived, so 2ft. and less seems to be a sweet spot, I’ve noticed.  The couple of larger ones that haven’t made it I put straight in ground in full sun, which probably wasn’t such a good idea. 

It also helps to cut off some of the fronds and put them in pots in shade or some filtered light and keep them moist. Planting them straight out in sun is probably not a good idea when they’re stressed like that.

Here’s some of my survivals:

My, now the largest one, I planted in Oct. 2017 as a 2-footer and is now nearly 8ft tall. 
The one near Sylvestris is another one I recently just planted. The one in a pot I’m growing out a bit more before I’ll plant that one. 

[Estlander]

1 minute ago, JLM said:

This is the largest of the two. Im hoping it pulls through, if not we might replace it with another roebelenii.

You never know, of course, but that’s probably a little too big to successfully transplant, unless you got all the roots. 
During the next week keep your eyes on the spear ,as that’s the first thing that dies if they’re not gonna make it. If it pulls, it’s done. The older fronds will remain green for quite a while longer, but it’s done nevertheless.  

[JLM]

1 minute ago, Estlander said:

You never know, of course, but that’s probably a little too big to successfully transplant, unless you got all the roots. 
During the next week keep your eyes on the spear ,as that’s the first thing that dies if they’re not gonna make it. If it pulls, it’s done. The older fronds will remain green for quite a while longer, but it’s done nevertheless.  

The other one is much smaller than this one and hasnt spear pulled, i might have hope with the smaller one. The one in the pics already spear pulled.

[Estlander]

24 minutes ago, JLM said:

The other one is much smaller than this one and hasnt spear pulled, i might have hope with the smaller one. The one in the pics already spear pulled.

Oh ok. Was wondering about the missing spear. Sadly, that’s how it is with Sabals

[JLM]

19 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Oh ok. Was wondering about the missing spear. Sadly, that’s how it is with Sabals

Do you think it will pull through?

[Estlander]

26 minutes ago, JLM said:

Do you think it will pull through?

The smaller one? Hard to say. Keep your eye on the spear. The big one is most likely dead 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Estlander

[JLM]

7 minutes ago, Estlander said:

The smaller one? Hard to say. Keep your eye on the spear. The big one is most likely dead 

I went out and checked the smaller one's spear, still nice and firm. The smaller one was planted a few hours before the larger one.

[Fusca]

7 hours ago, JLM said:

The other one is much smaller than this one and hasnt spear pulled, i might have hope with the smaller one. The one in the pics already spear pulled.

Was there a visible heel?  I couldn't see one from your photo but planting it too deep can also cause spear pull but probably not in your case.  I haven't grown palmetto in over a decade so I can't remember when the heel develops on them.  It's interesting to me how differently the heels are among the different Sabal species.  My uresana has a massive heel but the heel on my slightly larger guatemalensis is barely visible.  When my riverside died after a spear pull the outer leaves remained green for more than a year with no new growth.  Hopefully both of yours will make it!

[GoatLockerGuns]

Looks like there may be a small heel on the Sabal palmetto in JLM's first photo; however, it is hard to tell on the Sabal palmetto in JLM's second photo.  All of my Sabals developed heels pretty early.  The first picture is of a Sabal causiarum (about 4 years old).  The second picture is of a Sabal minor (about 6 years old).  The third picture is of a Sabal palmetto (about 8 years old).  Not sure if it is clear in the photos, but all of these Sabals have nice heels on them (pictures taken back in June of this year).  I also have some Sabal mexicana in pots that developed pronounced heels within one year of germination.  Frankly, I have come to expect to see heels on all Sabals, and find it odd when I don't see them.

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Looks like there may be a small heel on the Sabal palmetto in JLM's first photo; however, it is hard to tell on the Sabal palmetto in JLM's second photo.  All of my Sabals developed heels pretty early.  The first picture is of a Sabal causiarum (about 4 years old).  The second picture is of a Sabal minor (about 6 years old).  The third picture is of a Sabal palmetto (about 8 years old).  Not sure if it is clear in the photos, but all of these Sabals have nice heels on them (pictures taken back in June of this year).  I also have some Sabal mexicana in pots that developed pronounced heels within one year of germination.  Frankly, I have come to expect to see heels on all Sabals, and find it odd when I don't see them.

Rich, nice to see you posting here again!  My Sabal mexicana and 'Riverside' both developed heels within a year of germination also while still in a pot.  My guatemalensis that I had in a container for over 5 years didn't start showing a heel until after I planted it in the ground.  I'll have to check on my causiarum seedlings - if they have a heel started I haven't noticed them yet.

[JLM]

1 hour ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Looks like there may be a small heel on the Sabal palmetto in JLM's first photo; however, it is hard to tell on the Sabal palmetto in JLM's second photo.  All of my Sabals developed heels pretty early.  The first picture is of a Sabal causiarum (about 4 years old).  The second picture is of a Sabal minor (about 6 years old).  The third picture is of a Sabal palmetto (about 8 years old).  Not sure if it is clear in the photos, but all of these Sabals have nice heels on them (pictures taken back in June of this year).  I also have some Sabal mexicana in pots that developed pronounced heels within one year of germination.  Frankly, I have come to expect to see heels on all Sabals, and find it odd when I don't see them.

I will see if i can get some more pics tomorrow. Both pics show the same Sabal. 
Although im not 100% sure what yall mean by a heel.

[Jubaea_James760]

Here's the picture of my Uresana I dug up 2.5 years ago in it's pot. 

[Jubaea_James760]

Not a sabal but a Brahea Decumbens sporting a nice heel with the typical aerial roots coming off it. ( only picture i have in my phone of a noticeable heel) 

 

[GoatLockerGuns]

 

10 hours ago, JLM said:

I will see if i can get some more pics tomorrow. Both pics show the same Sabal. 
Although im not 100% sure what yall mean by a heel.

The heel is the "saxophone-like" growth at the base of the Sabal.  Conventional wisdom dictates that you keep the top third of the heel above ground when you plant/transplant them (see the "Comments and Curiosities" section of the Palmpedia entry: http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Sabal_palmetto).

[GoatLockerGuns]

11 hours ago, Fusca said:

Rich, nice to see you posting here again!  My Sabal mexicana and 'Riverside' both developed heels within a year of germination also while still in a pot.  My guatemalensis that I had in a container for over 5 years didn't start showing a heel until after I planted it in the ground.  I'll have to check on my causiarum seedlings - if they have a heel started I haven't noticed them yet.

Thanks Jon.  Been real busy lately, even in the current environment.  Its hard enough to find time to effectuate my horticulture hobby, much less post about it.  Still germinating palm seeds, growing palms, and pushing zones like its no body's business though.  Headed back down to Cape Coral, Florida next week for Christmas...I foresee another seed harvest in my immediate future!

[GoatLockerGuns]

Sabal mexicana with heel (approximately 2 years old).

[JLM]

Based on the pics above, i dont remember seeing anything like that on either of them. I actually planted them higher than they were before i dug them up.

[Brad Mondel]

It is doomed. 

[JLM]

34 minutes ago, Brad Mondel said:

It is doomed. 

More than likely, starting to notice spotting on the fronds now. Lower fronds are browning.