Heating Solutions

[NickJames]

So, I better start stocking up now for the winter....

What are the best options at the moment in the event I need to generate artificial heat on a couple nights?

Background: this past winter was my first at the new house, I got down to 33 per my weather station. For those who have seen pics of my property, The sensor is located between my back fence And the pond (co-located with anemometer for wind, that’s why so far from house) so I imagine it is in the coldest spot of the lot, being downhill from the home  

I have a severe radiational cooling problem due to lack of homes at the moment. I consistently ran colder than the Daytona international Airport on calm nights. However, any amount of wind would send my temp. spiking due to mixing up the air. 
 

Would something like this work:

Mr. Heater MH60QFAV 60,000 BTU Portable Propane Forced Air Heater https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KRFVDP4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_TcitFbMVQED1J
 

I am willing to try hardcore options. 

[sipalms]

Have you thought about a frost pot a.k.a smudge pot or orchard heater? Cheap, effective and easy to operate. Run on diesel, so cheaper than electric heating options. A very clever invention really.

These things are very common here in New Zealand for the odd frost that affects vineyards in the shoulder seasons. They were invented for the orchards of California etc. They not only have a huge impact on air movement and convection, but once they start to glow they give out incredible radiant warmth for metres around. And they sound cool. I would think these would pump out so much more warmth than that amazon option.

They're also popular as an ornamental patio heater here, once they go rusty they look kinda rustic...

 

[NickJames]

Thanks, not opposed to those options - just have no idea how to obtain one! I’ve never seen them in Florida.

 

The only thing I’ve ever heard of is farmers using sprinklers to encase strawberries in ice so they don’t freeze down to the core. I’ve been known to kick on my irrigation to stop frost so that my grass stays green through winter....but apparently not so good for palms. 

[kinzyjr]

@NickJames You might be able to get away with just tying up the fronds and wrapping a blanket around the trunk and growing point.  It's worked for coconuts here in both radiational cooling events down to 26F and an advective event down to 28F.  If you want to give yourself some wiggle room on the temperature, some C9 Christmas lights help.  Not entirely sure this would be enough if Central Florida had a rerun of 1985 or 1989, but for our typical freezes since, it seems adequate, easy and cheap.

[Palmaceae]

I used smudge pots back for the bad freezes of the 80's for my St Pete collection at that time. Since each of those bad freezes had a fair amount of wind, they really did not do a good job. Still lost many 10A palms. 

[NickJames]

  On 8/31/2020 at 6:25 PM, Johnny Palmseed said:

Your problem is exactly why I stopped pushing my zone and just let nature run it’s course. I got old and grew tired of the hassle. Whatever I plant now must fend for itself.

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On the flip side, there’s a lot of disease seemingly going around here on the “usual suspects” that can tolerate cold....so it’s a tough balance

[NickJames]

I’m willing to try out whatever I can find. 
 

I also have a fire pit can generate some heat as long as it’s elevated. I’m considering adding additional sand or rocks to the interior to elevate the fire. My d. Lutescens produce considerable debris and I dispose of it in the fire pit. It burns SUPER HOT but quickly with palm debris. 

[palmsOrl]

  On 8/31/2020 at 5:43 AM, sipalms said:

Have you thought about a frost pot a.k.a smudge pot or orchard heater? Cheap, effective and easy to operate. Run on diesel, so cheaper than electric heating options. A very clever invention really.

These things are very common here in New Zealand for the odd frost that affects vineyards in the shoulder seasons. They were invented for the orchards of California etc. They not only have a huge impact on air movement and convection, but once they start to glow they give out incredible radiant warmth for metres around. And they sound cool. I would think these would pump out so much more warmth than that amazon option.

They're also popular as an ornamental patio heater here, once they go rusty they look kinda rustic...

 

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I would go with the above suggested options, tried and true and clearly effective.

Otherwise, you could try those radiant plug-in heaters that are shaped like a small satellite dish aimed at smaller sizes palms up to maybe 6-8' high, just to add enough heat to prevent the palm's tissues from freezing.  Have also used forced air space heaters under tarps covering the palms.

You could also cover smaller stuff and put 5 gallon buckets of water underneath to generate a bit of heat as the water cools down.

I have pretty much tried it all but usually I just wrapped the palm in multiple layers of sheets and blankets, zip tying the crown together and wrapping up as high as I could, but always making sure to wrap to just above the growing point.

[Coasta]

I love the way your thinking Nick. This is exactly on my mind as well for the royal as here in az we get a few days in the high 20s. If some of your palms are small, you can use that clear plastic to heating structure to keep heat inside. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Coasta

[PJP]

Nick,

 

For smaller areas you can use electric dual halogen work lights (sold at HD) they through off lots of heat.  I use the torpedo propane heaters for larger areas and wrap the palm as other members suggest.

[PalmatierMeg]

Nick, you may want to check with your HOA and city about ordinances relating to using open flame devices, i.e., smudge pots etc. in your yard. Those devices are intended for agricultural use in open fields of crops, not in upscale residential developments. I suspect here in Cape Coral City Code Enforcement would flip out if I set up smudge pots in my yard. And I strongly suspect your neighbors would do the same.

[NickJames]

  On 9/1/2020 at 3:44 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

Nick, you may want to check with your HOA and city about ordinances relating to using open flame devices, i.e., smudge pots etc. in your yard. Those devices are intended for agricultural use in open fields of crops, not in upscale residential developments. I suspect here in Cape Coral City Code Enforcement would flip out if I set up smudge pots in my yard. And I strongly suspect your neighbors would do the same.

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I bribe my neighbors with PalmGain

But, good points. I have no concerns about the neighbors but would worry with all the City of Daytona Beach code inspectors coming down my culdesac constantly to turn around after their construction inspections.....

[NickJames]

Well, looks like we’ll be getting an early shot of cold tonight and tomorrow. 
 

Since we are not expecting a full blown freeze, my priority will be on my cocos and my Hyophorbe lagenicaulis. 

[JLM]

I tied up the fronds on my queens and wrapped the growing points with towels. Not doing christmas lights because they will be virtually useless in keeping them warm. Wind chills expected to range from 20-30F tomorrow morning.

[redant]

Really the only thing that's going to work is Christmas lights and blankets or other induvial palm protection schemes, you will not be able to fight mother nature. 

[Tropicdoc]

  On 8/31/2020 at 5:20 PM, kinzyjr said:

@NickJames You might be able to get away with just tying up the fronds and wrapping a blanket around the trunk and growing point.  It's worked for coconuts here in both radiational cooling events down to 26F and an advective event down to 28F.  If you want to give yourself some wiggle room on the temperature, some C9 Christmas lights help.  Not entirely sure this would be enough if Central Florida had a rerun of 1985 or 1989, but for our typical freezes since, it seems adequate, easy and cheap.

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Use bubble foil insulation instead of blankets they do not get soggy with water and have a little bit of R value

 

[NickJames]

So my temporary setup for tonight are electric blankets. Anyone ever used this before? 

[Dartolution]

@NickJames Not electric blankets (they scare me enough as it is), but I do use C9 lights and pipe heating cables.

We have a low tonight predicted for 27 (I suspect lower because its already 29). You can find my thread on my litoralis queen palm protection for this winter. 

I have a Butia, which didn't get anything but a pipe heating cable wrapped around it at the base and in between the fronds. Same with the chamaerops just to be safe. 

I have a sabal blackburniana I am basically trialing and seeing what happens. Weird crap happening today with that one ! whew!

 

 

[NickJames]

  On 12/1/2020 at 3:09 AM, Dartolution said:

@NickJames Not electric blankets (they scare me enough as it is), but I do use C9 lights and pipe heating cables.

We have a low tonight predicted for 27 (I suspect lower because its already 29). You can find my thread on my litoralis queen palm protection for this winter. 

I have a Butia, which didn't get anything but a pipe heating cable wrapped around it at the base and in between the fronds. Same with the chamaerops just to be safe. 

I have a sabal blackburniana I am basically trialing and seeing what happens. Weird crap happening today with that one ! whew!

 

 

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Oh, I forgot, I used a pipe heating cable as well on the bottle palm but it won’t kick on until 38 degrees it said?

Is an electric blanket scary!? 

[96720]

I have used potable electric space heaters under frost cloth, propane heaters the smaller kind that go on top of a propane tank I have probably 15 of those so I can place them by palms I want to protect them wait for my slam to let me know it’s close to freezing and get up and run around lighting them some people are crazy but I enjoy it.

[NickJames]

  On 12/1/2020 at 3:29 AM, 96720 said:

I have used potable electric space heaters under frost cloth, propane heaters the smaller kind that go on top of a propane tank I have probably 15 of those so I can place them by palms I want to protect them wait for my slam to let me know it’s close to freezing and get up and run around lighting them some people are crazy but I enjoy it.

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So I was considering that as well if you saw my other recent post on this. Do the propane heaters work? 
 

I am willing to try and spend anything quite frankly. 
 

This is really my only hobby (and drinking espresso). I don’t smoke, I don’t drink. So I spend my money on palms and related accessories. 

[96720]

They work for me I use them on palms mangoes and other tropical trees. I’m with you my only passion is my yard forget all the other stuff.

[NickJames]

So everything is zip tied to the palms. Should I undo it for the day to let it get sun (50s as high) or leave it zip tied in place for convenience?

[Johnny Palmseed]

  On 12/1/2020 at 1:19 PM, NickJames said:

So everything is zip tied to the palms. Should I undo it for the day to let it get sun (50s as high) or leave it zip tied in place for convenience?

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It’s going to be even colder tonight so I wouldn’t bother undoing anything. Even if you wrap the leaves so they get no sun, one day will not matter. If you used blankets you can leave them. If you use things like clear plastic, I believe you should remove them.

[NickJames]

Got it - it’s all blanket material and a heating cable so I’ll leave in place. 

[Dartolution]

@NickJames The idea of sleeping under a bunch of wires wrapped in cloth just scares me. lol 

I've never heard of anyone using them for winter protection.

I leave the frost cloth and burlap on unless we get a good solid week of decent temps and weather, in which case I will uncover.

The cloth is breathable and helps wick away moisture so Im not concerned with leaving that type of material on a palm.

 

It got down to 23 here vs the predicted 27. I was right. 

[redant]

Careful you don't fry them with heating cables, wouldn't be the first on here to do so.

[NickJames]

Well, the electric blanket didn’t even last 24 hours. It won’t turn on now. LOL!

[Dartolution]

@NickJames See, Don't trust those things! hahaha Better that it doesn't turn on instead of catch fire! 

[Allen]

In FL some ideas besides my normal Christmas lights on Thermocube with palm wrapped.  

 

Take a pole, drive in ground and attach a shop light with 100-150watt bulb aimed at palm spear or place at base of palm and point up with palm loosely wrapped in something.

I just temp wrapped my 10' mule by driving a pole close to it that leaned to the palm center, running Christmas lights on a thermocube up the pole and around palm trunk/spear, then wrapping the palm around the pole and lights.  Covered with a waterproof patio heater cover. 

Been there done that

If you live somewhere warm and don't know what's in this picture, don't ask LOL

Edited December 2, 2020 by Allen

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

  On 11/30/2020 at 10:38 PM, redant said:

Really the only thing that's going to work is Christmas lights and blankets or other induvial palm protection schemes, you will not be able to fight mother nature. 

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When I lived up north in the close in DC burbs I used the standard incandescent Xmas lights, and wrapped thin ish plastic wrap around that.  Think thinner than a standard clear plastic shower curtain, but not much thinner.    The only issue with this is that you will need to either set a timer to have it turn off just before sunrise or the time that sun reaches your palm, or, get up and turn them off yourself.   I found that even with temps of 35F, with sun on them , that it will kill a windmill.   I was lazy and did not get up in time to turn them off before the sun got high enough to produce some heat, and it fried the palm.  Before this though,  while snow would build on the outside of the plastic, the interior was a balmy 43F, with an air temp of 23F.    Its worth a shot and you can also control the ventilation  by leaving the top loose and open. The more open the more you will get the heat rising out of the area around the palm trunk.  I had mine mostly closed.  That said in the end it was my forgetfulness / laziness that cost me that palm. 

[Joe NC]

  On 12/2/2020 at 3:09 AM, Allen said:

If you live somewhere warm and don't know what's in this picture, don't ask LOL

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  On 12/2/2020 at 3:33 AM, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

The only issue with this is that you will need to either set a timer to have it turn off just before sunrise or the time that sun reaches your palm, or, get up and turn them off yourself

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Thermo-cubes are essential in palm protection schemes.  It is amazing how much heat a whole pile of the tiny christmas lights can generate.  I've wached the lights on my wrapped plams turn on and off (meaning it was getting warmer than 45F under the wrap) when the temps outside were in the low 20s and high teens.    

 

  On 11/30/2020 at 8:11 PM, JLM said:

I tied up the fronds on my queens and wrapped the growing points with towels. Not doing christmas lights because they will be virtually useless in keeping them warm. Wind chills expected to range from 20-30F tomorrow morning.

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You would be surpirsed how much heat the small (not led) christmas lights can produce.  They need to be under some sort of wrap to trap the heat (even just a frost cloth or towel).  I've sucessfully pulled some large zone-pushed palms through some cold times this way...

 

That is a 6 foot ladder next to a spine covered washy that I used to wrap/thermocube/lights to prevent defoliation (even down into the teens) 

[Dartolution]

The things we do to grow our palms... 

@Joe NC Looks like a good wrap job to me. 

Where do you usually position the thermacube? I tried to get it into the crown, but sometimes leave it on the ground.

[Allen]

  On 12/3/2020 at 3:42 PM, Dartolution said:

The things we do to grow our palms... 

@Joe NC Looks like a good wrap job to me. 

Where do you usually position the thermacube? I tried to get it into the crown, but sometimes leave it on the ground.

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Here's the goofy way I do mine.  I want it to be waterproof to not risk tripping gfci or mess up thermocube.  I just hang the cord so the thermocube is close to the spear.  I wrap in a gallon ziplock as you can see.

 

 

[NickJames]

  On 12/3/2020 at 4:36 PM, Allen said:

Here's the goofy way I do mine.  I want it to be waterproof to not risk tripping gfci or mess up thermocube.  I just hang the cord so the thermocube is close to the spear.  I wrap in a gallon ziplock as you can see.

 

 

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And so this just trips on the Christmas lights? 

[Dartolution]

@Allen Hey if it works!

BTW: Nice Butia in the background! 

[Dartolution]

@NickJames No If the thermacube trips for whatever reason the outdoor GFCI will trip as well, not just the Christmas Lights. The bag just helps prevent water from causing a trip.

 

 

[Allen]

  On 12/3/2020 at 4:42 PM, NickJames said:

And so this just trips on the Christmas lights? 

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That's what thermocubes do, yes!  On at 35 and off at 45 is the general palm one.  

I just don't like my connections getting wet when they're out there all winter.  

GFCI is a safety measure for outdoor plugs that can trip and turn off your electricity at the plug to prevent someone getting electrocuted.  But that also means a dead palm potentially.  It can trip if a wire gets cut or the electricity gets "loose".  

[Joe NC]

  On 12/3/2020 at 3:42 PM, Dartolution said:

Where do you usually position the thermacube?

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  On 12/3/2020 at 4:36 PM, Allen said:

I just hang the cord so the thermocube is close to the spear. 

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I try to get mine hanging like that near the spear.  I'll have to try the dangly baggie method next time I break out the lights and wrap (hopefully not this year). 

I will have to go for plan B (let the leaves get fried and just wrap and heat the spear/trunk) with my big mule if it is forecast to go below 20.   I probably should have just done that with the washy in the photo above.  Once it got really huge I still tried to save the crown and the whole wrap blew open and it all died.  (meh...more room for new stuff)

[zimm]

  On 12/2/2020 at 3:09 AM, Allen said:

In FL some ideas besides my normal Christmas lights on Thermocube with palm wrapped.  

 

Take a pole, drive in ground and attach a shop light with 100-150watt bulb aimed at palm spear or place at base of palm and point up with palm loosely wrapped in something.

I just temp wrapped my 10' mule by driving a pole close to it that leaned to the palm center, running Christmas lights on a thermocube up the pole and around palm trunk/spear, then wrapping the palm around the pole and lights.  Covered with a waterproof patio heater cover. 

Been there done that

If you live somewhere warm and don't know what's in this picture, don't ask LOL

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I live somewhere warm (but cold in the winter).  I desperately want to know what kind of thermostat plugs these are.  I am planning heat cable and something like these this winter but am only finding the yellow Frost King ones.  Are these any better or would you steer me towards any particular brands?   Thanks!