Hybrid palms

[Walter John]

After years of my palm interest I do believe my interest in anything palm hybrid or basically anything cross between one species and another is beginning to wane. I'm becoming a purist I guess.

Anyway, I put it to the board, what do people think about hybrids, is there are place for them, do we encourage their cultivation and admire them like a true species? Does nature allow this occurance anyway, do we go along with the flow ?

What say ye? come one come all.

I do admire my foxy lady all green variety but I don't care much as I used to with the variegation specimen.

Mmmm... so, anybody have any thoughts here ?

[aussiearoids]

I agree Wal , there are so many fantastic looking species why bother with hybrids . OK there are some around , most natural and repeats .

Its pretty harto improve on mother nature .

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

A great question, Wal.  I tend to agree with you, but i am lucky enough to be in a place where i can grow a lot of different species...i wonder if i might feel differently if i lived in a more marginal clime and hybrids were more hardy, like Butiagrus for instance. ???

I have noticed that the PACSOA site has listed Foxy  lady on their really great palms info page, so perhaps that one particular hybrid has already carved out it's niche.

[Walter John]

I have noticed that the PACSOA site has listed Foxy  lady on their really great palms info page

Hi Rusty,

Could not locate this page, can you please post a link to it's whereabouts ?

[Ken Johnson]

Most of us are growing palms out of habitat and screwing with nature anyway (no purist here WAL, you?) so hybrids are just another way to explore the limits. I say go for it.

There are endless posibilities, VFox crosses are definatly not the end of the line for beauty. I love to make my Coccothrinax relitives have sex. The offspring are all cute!

[merrill]

For those of us in marginal climates [we've reached 10F here] hybrids offer a much greater variety of forms of palms to grow - or- we can relocate to the tropics!  It would be infinitely more satisfying, of course, to be able to grow tropical palms with their myriad of forms.

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

Hi Wal....this is the Pacsoa page

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/index.html

[Logolight]

I like pure breads myself.

Then again, I wonder what palms think of humans because most of us are hybrids of different nationalities.

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Wal,

As stated above in this thread, hybrid palms greatly extends the range of where palms can be grown for those of us living in marginal climates and adds a lot of variety. I suspect there would be many more "natural" hybrids if the range of where species grow overlaped, but in most cases, they don't. A good example is Jubaea which is the only palm naturally occuring in mainland Chile, yet it crosses with Butia, Syagrus and perhaps other species.

For many years before people started controlled hybrids, there were many Butia X Syagrus coming from central Florida where both species are planted together in great numbers. (I have 3 and they were all natural hybrids from central Fla.) Just yesterday, I was counting the number of hybrids that are growing in my palm garden, and I have 4 different ones growing in the front part of my garden. This past winter was a nasty one in Calif. and I had many nights below freezing with a low of 23F (-5C) a couple of times, yet none of my hybrids showed the slightest damage while a Bismarkia growing nearby bit the dust.

Two new hybrids that have generated a lot of excitement for those of us in marginal climates are Butia X Parajubaea and Jubutiagrus, (Butia X Jubaea) X Syagrus. Not only do these hybrids add some variety to our gardens, but they have hybrid vigor and grow faster than either of their parents, with the exception of Syagrus, which we all know grows like a weed. An added bonus is these new hybrids grow in warmer locations where Jubaea and Parajubaea would never survive for long, so the range of these hybrids has been extended both north and south.

As for being a purist....Ha!  Those diehards among us know deep down we are all palm whores and we will grow anything that is new and different.

Dick

[palmsrgreat]

Glad to see this topic. I happen to have a strong desire for hybrids. I have two xButyagrus, a Foxy Lady, and a few JxB. I find the crosses to be unique and gives me a better chance of growing palms that would not normally make it in this climate. I also enjoy the vigor behind them. I am now seeking the Teddy/Triangle cross and always have my eyes peeled for an exciting new palm.

Anyone ever see a CIDPxreclinata hybrid? Very nice.

[Alan_Tampa]

Check out this non-palm (non-plant, too) hybrid.

http://www.hotspots.hawaii.com/Wolphin.html

Pretty weird.  

Merrill is a pioneer in hybridization of palms, Dick in Walnuts is also, and Tim Hopper on Fantasy Island is a pollen swapping master, what other response than 'walk on the wild side' could one expect?  

I think hybrids are of little consequence to the "real world" but of significant importance to horticulture and agriculture and happy garden time.

Alan

[junglegalfla]

Not a big fan of the variegated varieities. To me, they always look sick.

[DoomsDave]

I love them all!

That Butiagrus at the Big H is such swooning fodder, an enormous improvement over both parents.

I say plant them all.

Hmmm.

When you think about it, we're all hybrids . . . . .

dave

[Jason in Orlando]

I grow orchids in addition to palms, and I really avoid hybrids of either (some of the orchid hybrids have gotten completely out of control).  I just enjoy the beauty of something that is there naturally.  That is why I never grow tired of seeing a hammock of native Sabal palmetto in habitat.  They're just there, doing their thing, needing no help from us, thank you very much...  I don't think poorly of anyone who is into hybrids, they just don't do anything for me.

Caveat: I do see the immense value of some limited hybridization with respect to fighting off pests and diseases (see American elms and dutch elm disease).

Jason

[mike in kurtistown]

Whether or not to grow hybrids is an individual aesthetic decision. I don't want them because I prefer to replicate natural species in my garden. Others want to create designer palms, and that's their decision, nothing wrong with it.

I've seen Merrill's hybrids in central Florida, developed after decades of patient effort, and those majestic trees give marginal-climate growers exciting new options.

I dislike variegated palms because they're mutations that lack the the ability to use their entire leaf surfaces to produce energy for the plant. However, I've produced a couple by pure chance and sold them for big $$$. So that's a positive aspect of them, I guess.

Mike

[BS Man about Palms]

Well, I just picked up a little "Lytoagrus Dickensonii" today and after seeing the parent, I'm impressed. Its halfway between a Lytocarum and a S. Romazinofia.  It is a bit of a trip to see these long soft huge fronds laying on the ground and still green as can be.

I believe it was described by D. Hodel in the IPS journal V49(3).  Pretty cool.

[BS Man about Palms]

Does anyone have a picture of the Lytoagrus? Or could scan the IPS journal?

[PalmGuyWC]

Hello All,

I can't take any credit as being an expert on hybridizing palms. Patrick Schafer is the guy that does all the work, very tedious work I might add, but I watch what he's doing and we discuss the subject constantly. It just so happens that I have the palms, mature ones, growing in my garden and they are all in one place so that makes it eaiser for Patrick, even though he does have to drive over two hours to get to my place. He lives on several acres north of Santa Rosa and part of his property is a Redwood forest. About all I do is check the female flowers to see when they are near anthesis, and then alert Patrick.

The female flowers are only recptive for a day or two, so timeing is very important, and of course weather is an important factor. The flowers mature much more rapidly when its hot. There are many veariables concerning hybridizing such as weather, timeing, the freshness and avaiability of pollen, etc. We hope to write an article soon about Patrick's experiments, and what he has achieved.

I never would have thought that Parajubaea could be crossed with Butia, or Allogoptera with Jubaea, but this has been achieved too. The Butia X Parajubaea has been a stunning success and there are prodgney of this cross growing in California, Florida, Europe, and South America. The hybrid of this cross is a beautiful palm and it's one of the fastest growing and has proven to be very cold hardy as well as heat tollerent.

The Jubaea X Allogoptera cross has been less successful as most of the seedlings died off when they reached the 5 leafed stage. Patrick only has two left, but they seem to be doing OK.  Naturally, he is not about to part with these two rare hybrids, and one can only imagine what these will look like when mature. That's the fun of growing hybrids, you never know what you might get. I have three large Butiagrus and none look alike.

Dick

[edbrown_3]

North Florida , you cant grow alot of things.   I have 75 species in the ground but this is only because we have had a warm decade. (There is perhaps a dozen to one score that coudl survive here over several decades. ) You can grow 150 in Central Florida, 500 in Miami, and perhaps a 1000 in Hawaii.

I want a Jubea like palm here it needs to be a hybrid. If I want a coconut like palm it needs syagrus blood in it. If I want an Attalaea like palm it needs this in it.

You start playing around with these combinations you get perhaps 30

additional species which will grow here ( Jacksonville), Southern US, North Ca, Medditerrean, Southern Brasil and other margins of the Tropic of Capricorn. .

Best regards,

Ed

[mppalms]

When the Lytocaryum hoehnii seedlings I have mature, I plan to try a Lytoagrus hybrid with them.  If successful, I'll try to grow them up and share some.  Probably years away..  

I tend to keep few hybrids, but some occur naturally (for the purists) and some just have far better qualities than their parents.

Here's to the hybrids!

Jason

[TimHopper]

Hybrids extend new possibilities to what can be grown in many areas.  Cold hardiness, heat tolerance, disease resistance, etc. The phoenix SP. market is huge locally. New  P.Canariensis x Sylvestris  are replacing many of the dead or dying canariensis here. They should stand up much better to humidity and disease. From a collectors standpoint, I enjoy having hybrids just because they are out of the ordinary. I don't really understand the purist angle simply because if hybridizing were un-natural, nature would not allow it. Tim

[JD in the OC]

Tim,

I concur.  With hybrids you can creat new colored palms, new leaf shaped, etc.

Keep doing what your doing... someone's gotta do it!

I think Syagrus schizophylla x romanzoff are gorgeous... Time to try some of those eh?..

Jd

[PalmGuyWC]

Keep in mind that most of the food products we eat are hybrids and that goes from milk, to beef and pork, chicken, turkey, and most vegitables including rice and wheat. If it were not for the improvement found in hybrids, this planet couldn't support the hordes of humans present.

Dick

[JD in the OC]

Aren't seedless watermelons a hybrid?

[PalmGuyWC]

Dumb question here:  How can you grow seedles watermelons if you have no seeds?

[Walter John]

(Rusty on Pine Is. @ Jul. 15 2007,21:39)

QUOTE

Hi Wal....this is the Pacsoa page

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/index.html

Sorry Rusty I thought you meant a special page for "really great palms", as opposed to them all. And yes, my photo of the foxy lady leaflet lies therein. As I said I have grown away from them these days to just the natural breeds.

Making comment about hybrid food products I think misses the point by about a million miles. On the other hand, if you can't grow too much but with hybrids you can, that would make a difference. Speaking of missing the point by a million miles, does anyone grow roses ? they're all totally hybridised.

[sonoranfans]

(Ken Johnson @ Jul. 15 2007,06:48)

QUOTE

Most of us are growing palms out of habitat and screwing with nature anyway (no purist here WAL, you?) so hybrids are just another way to explore the limits. I say go for it.

There are endless posibilities, VFox crosses are definatly not the end of the line for beauty. I love to make my Coccothrinax relitives have sex. The offspring are all cute!

My sentiments exactly, ken.  In AZ a jubaea will not do well at all, but a butia hybrid will.  Certainly alot of butia hybrids exist in nature, and many sabals are potentially man made or natural hybrids.  In time, nature evolves and hybridizes on its own, generally with a nice contraint of a fitness criterion.  A brahea clara is a beautiful palm but may actually be a hybrid.  It is a complex topic with the potential for side ramifications.  I do think palm growers should not proliferate hybrids arbitrarily, there must be some responsibility regarding the genetics, fitness, and environmental impact.  If a man-made hybrid were to somehow threaten a naturally evolved species, that would be very irresponsible.

[merrill]

QUOTE:  Dumb question here:  How can you grow seedless watermelons if you have no seeds? END QUOTE

diploids and tetraploids are both fertile, but when themselves crossed, the resulting triploid germinates but is sterile; mitosis doesn't work properly thereafter.

[sonoranfans]

(merrill @ Jul. 19 2007,13:07)

QUOTE

QUOTE:  Dumb question here:  How can you grow seedless watermelons if you have no seeds? END QUOTE

diploids and tetraploids are both fertile, but when themselves crossed, the resulting triploid germinates but is sterile; mitosis doesn't work properly thereafter.

dumber question: are all palm hybrids sterile?

[merrill]

Hi, sonoranfans:  W/ apologies, let me amend my previous comment to mention there are almost always exceptions to every rule.

A slight majority of palm hybrids I'm familiar with produce viable seed. In the case of Jubaea X Butia, only the third generation really produces many viable seed.  I've seen viable hybrid seed in Allagoptera, Syagrus, Brahea, Washingtonia, Livistona, and others. - merrill

[sonoranfans]

(merrill @ Jul. 19 2007,14:30)

QUOTE

Hi, sonoranfans:  W/ apologies, let me amend my previous comment to mention there are almost always exceptions to every rule.

A slight majority of palm hybrids I'm familiar with produce viable seed. In the case of Jubaea X Butia, only the third generation really produces many viable seed.  I've seen viable hybrid seed in Allagoptera, Syagrus, Brahea, Washingtonia, Livistona, and others. - merrill

Thanks for the clarification, just ignorant here.  Seems like I learn something every day here.  Some hybrids like the butia/jubaea are gorgeous trees.  If I lived in hawaii or sough florida, there would be so many gorgeous viable palms to chose from that hybrids probably wouldnt even enter my mind.

[Gtlevine]

Hybrids are naturally occuring in habitat, so having hybrids does not mean you are not a purist. I myself believe hybrids are generally superior plants and this goes double for those of us in marginal climates as Merril suggested. I have close to 20 hybrids and they are all trouble free palms. My opinion is that my Woodveitcha's are 10 times as pretty as any Foxtail or Veitcha Arecina, and that is true for Butyagrus, Red Triangle, Lytoagrus, etc..., so for me having hybrids is a no brainer.

Without hybridization almost none of us would have a pet dog, so why not palms?

Gary

[PalmGuyWC]

Humm, thanks Merrill, not that I like watermelon anyway. They don't agree with me, but I love cantalope and other mellons...most of which are hybrids.

As for palm hybrids:  I seriously doubt they will ever impact the enviroment or encroach on other species.  They are damn hard to do in the first place.  Many times the attempts are not successful and it takes dogged effort to get the hybrids. Apparently there are several hybrid palms in nature where species overlap. In the case of Butia, Jubaea, Syagrus, Parajubaea hybrids, etc. they are greatly extending the range of where palms can be grown.

With my own limited experience, I have always felt that palms as a group are genetically unstable and mutations crop up all the time. Perhaps this is true with other genera too, but I'm more accquainted with palms. A good example is Rhapis and Chamaehrops.  Look at how many different varieties there are, yet they are all the same species, yet some have different growing requirements than others. Some will take more light or lower temperatures than others and this is the way plants evolve as our climatic conditions change. Mutations may be of horticultural interest, but may not be stronger or have superior qualities from the the plant they evolved from, but some do, and this is the way eveloution progresses.

Maybe hybridization is part of this process too.  Who is to say it's impossible for Jubaea pollen to drift over the Andes and touch some Butias, or Parajubaeas, or Syagrus and a new palm created?  We humans are only speeding up the process of eveloution and we can be a little more selective than Mother Nature, because we have a brain, and Mother Nature is haphazard and might take 10,000 or a 100,000 years to do what we can do in one year.

I should mention Phoenix dactilifera which is one of the oldest cultivated plants on earth. There are many different varieties which have been cultivated since early civilization, some which grow better in different locations and which have many different tastes and qualities.  Also the African Oil palm which has been hybridized and improved to grow in areas where it once never would

Dick

[tanetahi]

With genera that have recently gone through evolutionary radiation like Phoenix, Chamadorea and Dypsis, endless hybrids are possible, and from the ornamental horticulture point of view, fine. Why should palms be any different to other popular groups of horticultural subjects, most of which mankind subjects to hybridization and selection to suit her/his preferences and needs. Once you start cultivating species under garden conditions, a long way from their natural habitat, 'purity' becomes a bit of an abstract concept anyway. Personally I like the triangle x redneck Dypsis hybrids, and often wonder what one could cook up among the cane stemmed Dypsis group (lutescens, baronii, psammophila, cabadae, albofarinosa, onilahensis etc.).

However with Phoenix in particular, hybrids are generally sexually fertile, and within the natural ranges of the various species in Africa, Macaronesia and south Asia it is easy for hybrids between local and exotic species to go feral, contaminating the local wild populations with alien genes, which is not good.

[PalmGuyWC]

There was a post and a picture some months ago from someone in the Orlando Fla. area of a Butia X Parajubaea. I can't find it now, but if the grower reads this thead, how about a picture and a progress report? I'm really curious to see how they grow in the Fla. heat and humidity. If anyone has one growing in a warm zone, or a cold zone for that matter, how about a progress report?

I have one in N. Calif, and it's growing like gangbusters.  It's growing much faster than either of its parents. Mine in a 6 months period has taken from 23F (-5C) to 108 F (42C) with not the slightest damage. The tips of the newest fronds are higher than my head.

Dick