Palms for Glendale, CA

[Johnny]

I am currently in the process of designing and installing a residential landscape in Glendale, CA. I design and install many landscapes every year but I am excited about this one. The climate is different from what I am used to so I am looking forward to it. The home is located about 1.5 - 2 miles east of the 114, near the base of the foothills (Highland Ave). Please select the zone you think best typifies this area. Most of the landscape design work that I do is in OC and Coastal LA so the Glendale climate is different than what I am used to. I am guessing that it would be similar to Yorba Linda and Anaheim Hills which are the most interior locations in OC that have hills and which I have done work in. I noticed that the usual suspects (kings, queens pigmies) all looked decent considering this past winter. The only visible large Kentia looked rough but did have new growth. The homeowner is not a palm or plant collector but does want an exotic garden - not a Home Depot special. They don't need rare - just tropical, beautiful and different. The palms need to be available (without much hassle) in 15g+ containers, preferrably in 24 inch boxes. Performance is more important than rarity but rarity is welcomed. Here are some of the palms/plants we stock that I think would work well. I would appreciate your feedback and suggestions regarding your thoughts on how these will perform at this location.

Chamaedorea plumosa
Phoenix canariensis
Chamaedorea radicalis
Bismarckia nobilis
Brahea armata
Livistona chinesis
Sabal 'Riverside'
Wodyetia bifurcata
Howea foresteriana
Dypsis decaryi
Archontophoenix purpurea
Ensete ventricosum 'maurellii' (not a palm but worth mentioning)
Ravenea glauca
Chamaedorea glaucifolia
Rhapis excelsa
Caryota gigas
Rhopalostylis sapida
Rhopalostylis baueri
Livistona decipiens
Butia capitata
Archontophoenix alexandrae v. beatricae
Chambeyronia macrocarpa v watermelon
Roystonea regia
Roystonea oleracea
Chamaedorea hooperiana
Anthurium hookeri
Anthurium Lazarz
Cyathea cooperi
Schefflera puekleri
Schefflera arboricola
Alcantarea imperialis
Aechmea blanchetiana
Heliconia schiediana
Canna 'Stutgart'

Excuse any typos because I am typing on a Blackberry...

Thanks!

[The Germinator]

Hey Johnny, I grew up in Glendale. In fact my street was lined with Huge Canaries. Royal Bl. over by the College. It sounds like your location is up by La Cresenta / La Canada. It does snow about once every 10 years just up HWY 2 about 1500 elev. by the Country Club.

I would go with 9a Palms

[Fred Zone 10A]

Johnny,

I live just north of Glendale, but I'm having trouble locating the site of your project.  Is it just below the Verdugo Hills or the San Gabriel Mountains?  In other words, is it above downtown Glendale or below La Crescenta/La Cañada.

With regard to snow, I've lived in the area since 1983 and it has never snowed except above 4,000 feet.

There are lots of microclimates in our area, as we learned from January's "Big Freeze."  I have most of the species on your list (plus a whole lot more) and they suffered insignificant cold damage.  But a half mile down the slope it got a lot colder and those same palms would have died.  The best guide is to check out what happened to bananas in the neighborhood.  If they got hammered in January they should still be showing cold damage.

Your list looks pretty good, but there are a few changes I'd suggest.  Unless your client's property is really large, I'd substitute P. loureirii or P. rupicola for P. canariensis.  Also, I think that Roystonea oleracea is too marginal.  I wouldn't rule out Ravenea rivularis or Caryota mitis either.  And even though they are common, P. roebelenii are great for smaller spaces.

The secret to growing some of these palms inland is lots (and I mean LOTS) of water.  I'm referring specifically to the Rhopalostylis and the Caryota gigas.  I would have a big watering basin with a bubbler around each.

PM me if you have any questions.

[osideterry]

This year I experienced 9b instead of my usual 10a winter. 26-27F 3 nights in a row. Kings, Kentias, Roystonea regia, and Caryotas were 50-75% defoliated, but are bouncing back nicely. Foxtail, Triangle and Majesty palms were all 100% defoliated, but seem to be coming back. Foxtails are making the slowest progress of all. Archo' alexander and Veitchia arecina killed outright.

Bird of Paradise and Queensland Umbrellas also got major damage. On your list the R. oleracea and Heliconia strike me as pretty iffy.

A lot depends on whether the property you are referring to is itself on a hill, or in a cold drain. Try riskier stuff higher up, play it conservative in a low spot.

[Fred Zone 10A]

A lot depends on whether the property you are referring to is itself on a hill, or in a cold drain. Try riskier stuff higher up, play it conservative in a low spot.

That's sound advice.

[MattyB]

I was thinking exactly what Fred said:  Maybe skip on the R. oleracea.  But otherwise it seems like all the others are a sure bet.  Good luck.

[happ]

Johnny

It depends where the house is on Highland Ave.  Down near San Fernando Rd [by the LA river] or up above Glenoaks Blvd?  Makes a world of difference in winters like we experienced in Jan  

USDA zones are based on the average coldest temperature over a span of many years.  Normally Glendale, in general, would be 10a/10b.

[epicure3]

First off.....I am impressed that you put this thread together on a blackberry. I have an 8700 and can't even spell my name with the damn thing.

Regarding the heliconias, you shouldn't have a problem as they are very hardy for your area. The schiedeanas are (or were) a staple at the Huntington and bloom like crazy for me. Even in the freeze, they had no problems at all. Just protect them from winds that will shred them and you should be ok.

[Johnny]

I appreciate the feedback. I have been MIA due to nursery duties over the last couple of days.

The house located above downtown- Glen Oaks rings a bell but I will need to confirm that. The archetecture is Spanish-esque and built in the 1930's, if that helps yu identify the neighborhood.

My client really likes Foxtails. I scoured through the neighborhood and didn't see any. I will need incorporate a few in the frontyard.

Guys, can you give me some suggestions beyond my list? Perhaps palms that are closer to zone 10 that will still do well in that climate. Burretiokentia hapala? Beccariophoenix sp no window?

Ia also interested to know how Bambusa oldhamii, Phyllostachys nigra, Buddah Belly and Bambusa vugaris 'striata' would do.

Thanks!

[ellidro]

How about dypsis onilahensis (Jerry Andersen has a similar climate and his are beautiful), dypsis decepiens, Chamadorea Benzei, Ravenea sp. New (more cold hardy than glauca), Sabal Mauritiiformis, dypsis ambositrae (fine leaf form), Euterpe Edulis and I think burretiokentia hapala would probably be fine.

[Johnny]

Good Morning Nick! Caught you while I am on the board, too.

Great suggestions. I am goings to try to work-in the Raveneas, onilahensis and decipiens.

Lets try to go nursery hopping next week.

[Johnny]

Good Morning Nick! Caught you while I am on the board, too.

Great suggestions. I am goings to try to work-in the Raveneas, onilahensis and decipiens.

Lets try to go nursery hopping next week.

[Johnny]

Good Morning Nick! Caught you while I am on the board, too.

Great suggestions. I am goings to try to work-in the Raveneas, onilahensis and decipiens.

Lets try to go nursery hopping next week.

[osideterry]

Of the bamboos you mentioned Oldhamii and Buddha belly are hardy to 20F, and P nigra to 0F. The Vulgaris striata is only listed as hardy to about 30F in the American Bamboo Society brochure.

The Buddha Belly only gets it's named look if rootbound in a bot. In the ground it can be a big unruly mess.

You really can't go wrong with Oldamii. The P nigra is also great but needs a rhizome barrier to stay under control.

[Geoff]

No way is any where in Glendale even close to a zone 10b... so I would stick with zone 9a to 9b as the most likely zones of your location.  Heliconia will suffer every winter, but will grow back fine in summers... may never flower, though.  I agree with not growing B vulgaris or Buddah Belly- huge messes (especially buddah belly).  And I too think Roystonea oleracea would not have a chance in your area... even regia would be marginal, but might do OK against house or wall facing southwest.  Still, you have hundreds of species of palms to choose from.  Good luck.

[NBTX11]

Looks like according to the records, Glendale has never dropped below the low 20s, so I would put them in the 10a range, 9b if you want to be safe.  9a would indicate low 20s on average, and that is not the case according to the record books.  9a would be an extreme freeze of epic proportions, seeing the all time low is 22F.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatolo...onthly/USCA0423

[happ]

(Geoff @ Jul. 19 2007,15:59)

QUOTE

No way is any where in Glendale even close to a zone 10b... so I would stick with zone 9a to 9b as the most likely zones of your location.  Heliconia will suffer every winter, but will grow back fine in summers... may never flower, though.  I agree with not growing B vulgaris or Buddah Belly- huge messes (especially buddah belly).  And I too think Roystonea oleracea would not have a chance in your area... even regia would be marginal, but might do OK against house or wall facing southwest.  Still, you have hundreds of species of palms to choose from.  Good luck.

Geoff

Like many cities dissected by mountains, Glendale has frost-free zones.  From the hilltops around Forest Lawn to the Verdugo foothills above Brand Park to Montrose is USDA 10+ .  My place is due east of Glendale [last frost 1990; coldest minimum last Jan: 37F].  Heliconia flower even at the Arboretum in Arcadia & widespread.  

The lowlands of metro Glendale would be the most vulnerable though I haven't notice much frost damage from Jan's record lows.

[Ashton]

(syersj @ Jul. 19 2007,17:05)

QUOTE

Looks like according to the records, Glendale has never dropped below the low 20s, so I would put them in the 10a range, 9b if you want to be safe.  9a would indicate low 20s on average, and that is not the case according to the record books.  9a would be an extreme freeze of epic proportions, seeing the all time low is 22F.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatolo...onthly/USCA0423

According to the records, my home in Palos Verdes is zone 10b. You should see all the wonderful stuff - BIG stuff that croaked this past winter that should have sailed through 10 a!

The USDA zones are helpful, but if you rely on them solely, you're going to take it in the shorts.

I know Glendale gets nightly low temps that will qualify for zone 10, but it tends to stay quite cool in the day too, and that will kill your palms as effectively as the cold nights will.

There are areas of Florida that are considered zone 9b and people are growing Adonidias and Cocos with little problem. And these same palms won't survive two seasons here in my 10b. The reason is the daytime temps in Florida tend to hop right back up to nice warm temps and the palms get a reprieve. Not true here in socal. Heck it was cool until the end of June this year. Maybe I should move. I can't afford all my favorite palms dying.

Ashton

[NBTX11]

(Ashton @ Jul. 20 2007,19:22)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Jul. 19 2007,17:05)

QUOTE

Looks like according to the records, Glendale has never dropped below the low 20s, so I would put them in the 10a range, 9b if you want to be safe.  9a would indicate low 20s on average, and that is not the case according to the record books.  9a would be an extreme freeze of epic proportions, seeing the all time low is 22F.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatolo...onthly/USCA0423

According to the records, my home in Palos Verdes is zone 10b. You should see all the wonderful stuff - BIG stuff that croaked this past winter that should have sailed through 10 a!

The USDA zones are helpful, but if you rely on them solely, you're going to take it in the shorts.

I know Glendale gets nightly low temps that will qualify for zone 10, but it tends to stay quite cool in the day too, and that will kill your palms as effectively as the cold nights will.

There are areas of Florida that are considered zone 9b and people are growing Adonidias and Cocos with little problem. And these same palms won't survive two seasons here in my 10b. The reason is the daytime temps in Florida tend to hop right back up to nice warm temps and the palms get a reprieve. Not true here in socal. Heck it was cool until the end of June this year. Maybe I should move. I can't afford all my favorite palms dying.

Ashton

Well, that's true, the zones are only averages, not what you can expect in the severe winters.  I personally don't think I would enjoy living in SoCal weather wise.  Sure they are mild most of the winter, but I need HEAT and humidity and lot's of it.  Most springs by March or April we are getting HOT (except for this year with all the rain) and staying hot for a long, long time.    Well just my observation anyway.

[happ]

Totally agree Jim  

Early sustained Texas heat kicks in fast & lasts 6-7 months; definitely subtropical  :cool:  I was just noting that summer's arrival starts in July in coastal California; 3 months behind the Southeast.

It is a cruel irony that winter defines what palms can survive in Texas  

[NBTX11]

(happ @ Jul. 20 2007,22:11)

QUOTE

Totally agree Jim  

Early sustained Texas heat kicks in fast & lasts 6-7 months; definitely subtropical  :cool:  I was just noting that summer's arrival starts in July in coastal California; 3 months behind the Southeast.

It is a cruel irony that winter defines what palms can survive in Texas  

Right, those stupid blue northers a couple times a winter can ruin your garden.  If we could get rid of those...

On the other hand, we do get lots of warm 75-80 degree days in the middle of winter, so it's not too bad.  But, I think the winter temps fluctuate more wildly here than, for example So Cal, or S. FL.  In Jan, it could be 80 one day, a cold front come thru, and be 45 the next.  That's why our average Jan temp is 62-64, instead of 70-75.   Cold doesn't last very long here though, "usually" get big rebounds from cold.  We usually get some of our hottest winter weather right before one of those cold fronts.  Pre frontal warming, I think they call it.

[happ]

Right on about the "blue northers."  Even Brisbane OZ is susceptible to polar cold fronts    There's no guarantee outside the tropics & Hawaii.

Have you considered Port Isabel/McAllen area?  Deep So. Texas reports more heat in winter than Florida & California [though highest max [95+ seem to occur in California.

How safe is Brownsville for tender palms [ie veitchia?

[NBTX11]

(happ @ Jul. 21 2007,10:34)

QUOTE

Right on about the "blue northers."  Even Brisbane OZ is susceptible to polar cold fronts    There's no guarantee outside the tropics & Hawaii.

Have you considered Port Isabel/McAllen area?  Deep So. Texas reports more heat in winter than Florida & California [though highest max [95+ seem to occur in California.

How safe is Brownsville for tender palms [ie veitchia?

I can't really speak about the specific palms of the RGV - I have only visited there a couple times, and I wasn't really looking around at palms at the time.  They may have more palms per square mile than anywhere in the US though (maybe).  Well, outside of S. FL.  I would say they are worse and better for palms at the same time than SoCal.  They are zone 10a...Better, in that they get way more heat than Cal, but worse in that they are slightly more susceptible to cold fronts.  I have seen several pictures of decent size cocos nucifera if that tells you anything.  Maybe one of the RGV residents will come on and comment...

As far as the winter max temps.  From what I have seen, either Laredo or McAllen TX many times have the national high temp in the winter at least a good portion of the time...