Suggestions for rooftop palm in Mexico city

[Swolte]

My brother just bought an apartment with a small rooftop patio in Mexico City (tropical climate). He knows I am crazy about Palms so asked me if I had any recommendations. He doesn't realize my knowledge of palms only extends up to zone 8b (and I avoid looking at this forum out of jealousy). What would you recommend? I assume it will need to grown in a large pot of sorts and that he does want the palm to provide some shade. I am guessing, since it is on a rooftop, one would need to be careful with palms that shed dangerous debris in case of high wind. Thank you!

Edited July 12, 2020 by Swolte

[DoomsDave]

Howdy!

Mexico City, while in the tropics, is also high in the mountains so it will have a climate completely different from, say, Yucatan.

How about a picture of the patio? That will put things in visual context.

[aztropic]

Anything big enough to provide shade is going to need a massive concrete pot to keep from blowing over in high winds. (something to consider)

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[Swolte]

Thanks, those are helpful considerations. 

I attached a pic of the current patio. Seems like the walls on the side are of decent size. I guess a palm that gets no larger than 3 meters (~ 10ft) would do if he also anchors it to the wall. 

Let me know what type of palm would be awesome!


~ S

Edited July 12, 2020 by Swolte

[PalmTreeDude]

After looking at Mexico City’s average temperatures on google, I wonder if a Kentia Palm (Howea forsteriana) would do well on a rooftop there? They don’t like it too hot or freezing cold, and they grow really slowly so it won’t be too big in just a few years, if you start off with a small one. Try to get a single palm in the pot so you don’t have multiple that are constantly competing with and stunting each other. 

Edited July 12, 2020 by PalmTreeDude
Adding Info

[aztropic]

Good suggestion but anything big enough to give the least bit of shade will cost mucho dinero! If that's not a problem,it might be one to consider.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[GottmitAlex]

Reading mexicannews articles, during winter of 2017-2018 Mexico city had a bad cold front. Most elevated parts of the city reached -4C while others bottomed out at -1C.

Never snows there though. Lots of hail and yearly freeze/frost. 

I would think about zone 9b palms.

 

 

 

[DoomsDave]

1 hour ago, Swolte said:

Thanks, those are helpful considerations. 

I attached a pic of the current patio. Seems like the walls on the side are of decent size. I guess a palm that gets no larger than 3 meters (~ 10ft) would do if he also anchors it to the wall. 

Let me know what type of palm would be awesome!


~ S

Wow!

Very nice!

Patio ain't bad, either . .. .

I think, given the craftsmanship (of the patio) I think serious care is indicated. Big pots can be big problems, but they can be glorious, too.

Is Cuidad de Mexico still the biggest city in the world?

I'd take the time and get, say, a really cool handmade planter with tiles, or gods, or both.

But, you know what? Maybe a Rhopie, Hedyscepe or Howea might work, given the coolness. On the other hand, might be too tender to the cold. Way way too cold for a coconut.

[Palmfarmer]

I think you should at least try a Coconut i believe they would survive there at least cold hardy wise. 

Having been to Mexico city many times the climate is pretty consistant year around right in the middle. 

I agree with @DoomsDave You should get built up a raised gardening bed up there. Seeing how cheap labor is in Mexico this would not be expensive.

[GottmitAlex]

37 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

I think you should at least try a Coconut i believe they would survive there at least cold hardy wise. 

Having been to Mexico city many times the climate is pretty consistant year around right in the middle. 

I agree with @DoomsDave You should get built up a raised gardening bed up there. Seeing how cheap labor is in Mexico this would not be expensive.

I believe the survival of a coconut palm on top of a Mexico city roof is highly unlikely. 

 

[The Gerg]

I’m curious how many stories the building is.

Anyway, what about a Butia odorata in a nice big white pot. That blue palm would look nice up there and not too tall but tall enough to eventually give some shade.

Plus it’s beefy and heavy so winds not likely a problem.

[awkonradi]

Beautiful roof top space.  Nice high walls that provide safety and privacy.  Fantastic potential for a beautiful garden.  However, I think achieving shade from potted plants is NOT a reasonable objective.  Mexico city is at 19.4 degrees north, and 7400 feet in elevation.  That means utterly blistering tropical sunshine almost straight overhead for most of the year.  So, I recommend that your brother build a structure for shade, and surround that with potted plans, including small palms.  I can just see it now, with gentle lighting inside the structure at night.  I wish I was enjoying a cocktail right there right now!

[GottmitAlex]

16 minutes ago, awkonradi said:

Beautiful roof top space.  Nice high walls that provide safety and privacy.  Fantastic potential for a beautiful garden.  However, I think achieving shade from potted plants is NOT a reasonable objective.  Mexico city is at 19.4 degrees north, and 7400 feet in elevation.  That means utterly blistering tropical sunshine almost straight overhead for most of the year.  So, I recommend that your brother build a structure for shade, and surround that with potted plans, including small palms.  I can just see it now, with gentle lighting inside the structure at night.  I wish I was enjoying a cocktail right there right now!

Hear, hear!

[DoomsDave]

@Swolte tell your brother to take his time. This will be worth the effort, palms in a mega-megalopolis at high altitude.

[DoomsDave]

And, @Swolte we dearly, maybe desperately hope to see some cool pictures of whatever your brother does.

[Fusca]

I'll bet @GDLWyverex would have some good advice - I believe he has some palms planted on a rooftop in Guadalajara.  Perhaps not the same climate but might have some input on where to obtain plants and different local common names to look for.

[DoomsDave]

@Swolte as you may have noticed, a lot of nutty people are excited.

We promise to be nice!

If a little strident in our excitement, desire for pictures.

[waykoolplantz]

I'd trompe l'oeil some tropical scene to tone down the glareing white...shade from a palm ?  

 B Fenestralis will give some shade when bigger...the vents in fronds may be more wind friendly

[DoomsDave]

4 hours ago, waykoolplantz said:

I'd trompe l'oeil some tropical scene to tone down the glareing white...shade from a palm ?  

 B Fenestralis will give some shade when bigger...the vents in fronds may be more wind friendly

I think it's much too cold at that altitude for B. fenestralis; it might even be too cool for B. alfredii.

But the trompe l'oiel sounds like a great idea! Just need to find someone who can do it.

[Swolte]

12 hours ago, awkonradi said:

Beautiful roof top space.  Nice high walls that provide safety and privacy.  Fantastic potential for a beautiful garden.  However, I think achieving shade from potted plants is NOT a reasonable objective.  Mexico city is at 19.4 degrees north, and 7400 feet in elevation.  That means utterly blistering tropical sunshine almost straight overhead for most of the year.  So, I recommend that your brother build a structure for shade, and surround that with potted plans, including small palms.  I can just see it now, with gentle lighting inside the structure at night.  I wish I was enjoying a cocktail right there right now!

WTH, this sounds way too good! I need this for myself not my pesky little bro!

Sibling rivalry aside, I'll dig into these great suggestions and I'll make sure to score some pics once he gets his act together up down there... or up there (4 stories high, I believe). 

[waykoolplantz]

off topic...

[oasis371]

As has been suggested above, there are many palm species that would do well in that location, but not sure how much shade they would offer..., palms are not really considered "shade trees".  Balconies and roof top areas are notorious windy and sun and hot, but those high walls and light colors are advantages There were some good choices listed above but not sure how they would fit in with the height requirement of under 10 feet. I might be inclined to consider Butia (Pindo palm), or Chamaerops (Mediterranean fan palm), or Pygmy Date (Phoenix roebellini).  But I would also consider some non palms too (maybe Cycads, Yucca, Citrus, loquats), and something to bring color (Oleanders, Bougainvillea, etc.).

P.S., I don't think Howea (Kentia) would like that much of an exposed location..., sun is potentially too strong.

Edited July 13, 2020 by oasis371
additional information

[awkonradi]

Yes, attach trellis to some walls, and set up some Bougainvillea!

[Josh76]

I lived in Mexico City for many years and whatever your brother plants up there will need to be very tough. At that latitude and elevation the sun is ferocious for most of the year. The elevation also affects water evaporation so although there is lots of precipitation during the rainy season, the rest of the year any plants on that roof would require daily irrigation. The summer storms can include high winds and serious hailstones so that's another consideration. Lastly, the availability of palms in Mexico City is somewhat restricted but he could drive to nearby Morelos for a wider selection I guess. I think a well-built shade structure might be a better option.

[Palmfarmer]

On 7/12/2020 at 7:58 PM, GottmitAlex said:

I believe the survival of a coconut palm on top of a Mexico city roof is highly unlikely. 

 

I dont unless OP is living in the High elevation part of the city. I live in durango at roughly 1900 meters elevation most tropical stuff you can grow here is Royal Palms laying at 24.0277 N latitude. You only have to travel to San Louis Potesi which is around 2 degrees further south(22.1565 N) and at the same elevation and you can grow Coconuts unprotected out in the streets there and even Latanias do well. Now we go roughly 3 degrees further south from Potesi and only 350 meters further up at 19.4285 N and we are in Mexico city, So yeah Coconuts should work pretty nice there

[Josh76]

Bismarckia really struggle in Mexico City because it never really gets hot enough for them to grow well. Wouldn't that also be an issue with Cocos?

[RedRabbit]

On 7/12/2020 at 7:53 PM, DoomsDave said:

Is Cuidad de Mexico still the biggest city in the world?

Tokyo is, although it doesn’t really feel all that big when you’re there. 

[GottmitAlex]

On 7/15/2020 at 1:45 PM, Palmfarmer said:

I dont unless OP is living in the High elevation part of the city. I live in durango at roughly 1900 meters elevation most tropical stuff you can grow here is Royal Palms laying at 24.0277 N latitude. You only have to travel to San Louis Potesi which is around 2 degrees further south(22.1565 N) and at the same elevation and you can grow Coconuts unprotected out in the streets there and even Latanias do well. Now we go roughly 3 degrees further south from Potesi and only 350 meters further up at 19.4285 N and we are in Mexico city, So yeah Coconuts should work pretty nice there

I hope I'm wrong by saying that at 2250m/7382ft altitude, Cocos nucifera palms will not survive in an exposed, outdoor environment.

I'm all for reasonable zone pushing. Not fanciful zone pushing.

IMO, a coconut palm at that elevation is an annual plant. 

Just my 2c

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Palmfarmer]

8 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

I hope I'm wrong by saying that at 2250m/7382ft altitude, Cocos nucifera palms will not survive in an exposed, outdoor environment.

I'm all for reasonable zone pushing. Not fanciful zone pushing.

IMO, a coconut palm at that elevation is an annual plant. 

Just my 2c

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok why would it die? only reason i can see is that it does not get enough heat units or that having nights at 5c followed by 25c days once in a while during the winter would kill it off. IE being to sensitive to chilly wheater "long term". other than that from a straight up cold hardy perspective it should have zero problems. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Palmfarmer

[GottmitAlex]

45 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

.....only reason i can see is that it does not get enough heat units or that having nights at 5c followed by 25c days once in a while during the winter would kill it off. IE being to sensitive to chilly wheater "long term". 

^^This^^

I believe the altitude threshold in which a handful of coconuts have been able to grow outdoors, exposed and inside the true tropical latitude margins (+20°/-20°) is 1900m/6233 ft above sea level.  (For the same reasons you pointed out.)

I don't have the University of Florida's paper on the subject handy.  But they researched it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GottmitAlex]

Notice the higher the latitude, the necessity of a lower altitude is sine qua non in order to "try" and grow cocos outdoors ( or any equal hardy tropical for that matter in a 10a+ zone).

Look at Corona, CA: 198m/679ft

La Quinta,CA: 41m/135ft

San Diego,/Tijuana: 110m/360ft.(inland)

And still, if they succeed, we will probably never se them produce fruit. Who knows.

Here's hoping!

 

 

 

[GottmitAlex]

At 24000ft, atop a Mexico city rooftop, in a pot and completely exposed, well, that is a Kobiashi maru scenario.

That said, with artificial/supplemental heat and frost cloths, a seedling can be protected and survive. However, once it grows beyond any reasonable means of artificial protection, then it's downhill from there. 

If I were deadset on growing an exposed coco in Mexico City or Durango for that matter, I would do everything I could to procure a TRUE DWARF coconut. And yes, I would protect it as long as I could.  Now that imo, is viable.

 

[Palmfarmer]

3 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

At 24000ft, atop a Mexico city rooftop, in a pot and completely exposed, well, that is a Kobiashi maru scenario.

That said, with artificial/supplemental heat and frost cloths, a seedling can be protected and survive. However, once it grows beyond any reasonable means of artificial protection, then it's downhill from there. 

If I were deadset on growing an exposed coco in Mexico City or Durango for that matter, I would do everything I could to procure a TRUE DWARF coconut. And yes, I would protect it as long as I could.  Now that imo, is viable.

 

Durango and CDMX has very different Climates. Durango has much colder winters especially at night and it has seasons and a much hotter spring, summer and fall. CDMX is pretty much without any seasons and a lot further south. San Louis Potisi is 2-3 degrees further south at the same elvation and you can grow small coconuts without even canopy, it has more similar climate to Durango but warmer nights that make the big all the difference. purely by the figures i give you would a Coconut grow with average temps of 10c nights and 25c days? coldest temprature in "winter" was 3c in cdmx at night of course.

[GottmitAlex]

4 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

Durango and CDMX has very different Climates. Durango has much colder winters especially at night and it has seasons and a much hotter spring, summer and fall. CDMX is pretty much without any seasons and a lot further south. San Louis Potisi is 2-3 degrees further south at the same elvation and you can grow small coconuts without even canopy, it has more similar climate to Durango but warmer nights that make the big all the difference. purely by the figures i give you would a Coconut grow with average temps of 10c nights and 25c days? coldest temprature in "winter" was 3c in cdmx at night of course.

When was it only 3c in Mexico city?

Winter of 2017?

[GottmitAlex]

Here's the article:

https://www.altonivel.com.mx/actualidad/mexico/los-dias-mas-frios-ciudad-de-mexico/

[Palmfarmer]

10 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

When was it only 3c in Mexico city?

Winter of 2017?

Sorry it there was one event of 1c this winter. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Palmfarmer

[GottmitAlex]

By the way @Palmfarmer, I am not being purposefully contentious (nor trying to come across as it)  On the contrary, I am giving my opinion. I'll leave it at that.

 

I am all for zone pushing. ( within reason, of course).

[Palmfarmer]

2 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

By the way @Palmfarmer, I am not being purposefully contentious (nor trying to come across as it)  On the contrary, I am giving my opinion. I'll leave it at that.

 

I am all for zone pushing. (Reasonably, of course).

no problem, you seem very reasonable  just wondering purely based on data if 25/10c average you think a coco would make it in to a wall or something not rooftop

Edited July 18, 2020 by Palmfarmer

[GottmitAlex]

2 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

no problem, you seem very reasonable  just wondering purely based on data if 25/10c average you think a coco would make it in to a wall or something not rooftop

In Durango or Mexico DF, err, Mexico City?

Planted in ground? I think it would have the upperhand in Durango over Mexico city. 

South facing, against a wall, great drainage would be needed.

It's a long shot though. 

Remember Durango's famous "aguanieve".

 

Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt.

 

 

 

[awkonradi]

I just "drove" around Mexico city for a few miles on Google maps.  Not surprisingly, I saw Phoenix canariensis, Washingtonia robusta, Syagrus romanzoffiana, and what I believe are Chamaedorea.  I did not see any Brahea, Chamaerops, or Sabal, although these surely would be hardy.  I did not see any lowland tropicals.  Zero!  That doesn't mean these couldn't survive.  But, I think these would be highly experimental.  So, Steven (original poster), I still recommend a structure for shade, and potted plants under and around the structure, especially including Chamaedorea, which would be pretty and not prickly.  I saw plenty of Bougainvillea on my "drive" around Mexico city, so I think these would be candidates for your walls.  I think waykoolplantz's suggestion of murals on your walls is a great idea too!  You already would understand that for a garden of any size in that roof space, you would want want running water up there.