Growing potted palm seedlings in bagged peat

[SoulofthePlace]

Can potted palm seedlings be grown only in bagged peat?

[jimmyt]

Are you suggesting potting the seedlings in pure peat?   The problem with peat is that it is either soaked wet or dry. I find it difficult to control the moisture of peat.  If you could control how wet or dry it stays I suppose you could.  Assume the palm likes the acidity.  I also would expect to have to add fertilizer and nutrients as it would be considered soil-less media.  Just my lost opinion. 

[rprimbs]

How about making a mix of peat moss, perlite, and orchid bark?

[SoulofthePlace]

RPRIMBS: My question is not about WHAT medium to use for palm seedlings (those ingredients you mentioned are unavailable here and are too expensive to import), but whether palm seedlings will live, survive, grow in peat. Currently they no longer sell potting soil here, only peat in bags... It's a remote island.

[Pal Meir]

On 6/18/2020 at 1:35 PM, SoulofthePlace said:

RPRIMBS: My question is not about WHAT medium to use for palm seedlings (those ingredients you mentioned are unavailable here and are too expensive to import), but whether palm seedlings will live, survive, grow in peat. Currently they no longer sell potting soil here, only peat in bags... It's a remote island.

Why don’t you make your own mix using the lava soil of your volcano Pico?

[SoulofthePlace]

On 6/19/2020 at 6:55 PM, Pal Meir said:

Why don’t you make your own mix using the lava soil of your volcano Pico?

What is a lava soil by your opinion? Crushed lava stones? We don't have any soil here where the lava flowed 300 years ago, only solid rock and lava stones.

[Tyrone]

On 6/18/2020 at 7:35 PM, SoulofthePlace said:

RPRIMBS: My question is not about WHAT medium to use for palm seedlings (those ingredients you mentioned are unavailable here and are too expensive to import), but whether palm seedlings will live, survive, grow in peat. Currently they no longer sell potting soil here, only peat in bags... It's a remote island.

Hmmm, that is an issue. Do you have sand or small sized gravel anywhere? River sand  is the best. Can you then make up some sort of organic compost from leaf litter etc and mix that with the peat you can still get. After that you would need some bigger coarser material like pine bark. If you could get those ingredients and mix them up in equal parts so one part gravelly sand, one part the peat compost mix and one part pine bark, then theoretically you could make your own mix.

[lzorrito]

On 6/18/2020 at 12:35 PM, SoulofthePlace said:

RPRIMBS: My question is not about WHAT medium to use for palm seedlings (those ingredients you mentioned are unavailable here and are too expensive to import), but whether palm seedlings will live, survive, grow in peat. Currently they no longer sell potting soil here, only peat in bags... It's a remote island.

How about bagacina? You've plenty there, in different sizes. You also can try some stream washed coarse volcanic sand, like the one on Prainha, Canto da areia. May pick it on the stream just before it reachs the sea, or more above, in some places where it settles. Think it may help a lot whit your mix. And pine bark, there's plenty around you. Just need to crush it.

Edited July 22, 2020 by lzorrito

[SoulofthePlace]

On 6/28/2020 at 11:05 PM, Tyrone said:

Hmmm, that is an issue. Do you have sand or small sized gravel anywhere? River sand  is the best. Can you then make up some sort of organic compost from leaf litter etc and mix that with the peat you can still get. After that you would need some bigger coarser material like pine bark. If you could get those ingredients and mix them up in equal parts so one part gravelly sand, one part the peat compost mix and one part pine bark, then theoretically you could make your own mix.

I buy everything from sand, to turf, to bagged soiled and to trucked soil and I brought large bags of perlite and a small bag of vermiculite from Home Depot and Lowe's in the US since for some strange reason they do not have vermiculite or perlite in Portugal and they will not even be able to order it for me. We got ocean bottom sand with remains of sea shells and no river sand. That kind of sand releases salts into the walls of buildings that look like salt crystals that damage the wall integrity in the long run. I use it to mix for planting some species such as Medjool. I do make my own compost from food scraps, leaves, egg containers etc. Then I mix everything to create potting soil and even to add to some pits when planting trees. I use pine bark as mulch only. I was able to purchase 50 small 10 liter bags of potting soil recently.

So the Areca catechu seedlings (germinated seeds that arrived looking dead with their leaves dried up) but I still hope to revive them so at the time I only had peat available and planted those semi-dead seedlings into a pot with pure peat some couple months ago. They still are the same, not completely dead and not growing even a bit.

[Tyrone]

I’m sorry to tell you but Areca catechu is too tropical for your area. They need good warm to hot humid summers to grow.

[SoulofthePlace]

32 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

I’m sorry to tell you but Areca catechu is too tropical for your area. They need good warm to hot humid summers to grow.

I forgot to mention that the Areca catechu seedling is in my garage (hotter environment of about 27-31C during summer), but I have about 1 meter tall Areca catechu growing in the ground for over a year now and it's doing fine. It recently pushed a new frond and a new spear. Yet those seedlings were purchased frpm Thailand and arrived perished, while one seems to have some green left in it and am trying to revive it and I planted it in a pot with plain peat as per above OP.

Attached are photos of Areca catechu (right next to banana, does not look its best though), Ptychosperma elegans (small palm in the 3rd photo), Archontophoenix (two), a flowering Dracaena draco etc. There is a coconut growing nearby a couple miles from my house and I am now growing seedlings of Beccariophoenix alfredii that reminds some people of a coconut palm (really?). The coconut itself (Cocos nucifera) is in the process of germination from a store-bought coconut and I am also growing pineapples (ananás) that was grown in the Azores. Four pineapple plants growing wild in the woods in my place of unknown origin, but because of full shade they don't fruit so far. There is also Veitchia arecina (Montgomery growing in my yard as well as Veitchia joannis, Hyophorbes, Papaya). Yet Pritchardia pacifica, Lipstick palm and some other species failed to survive here probably lacking of a right micro-climate and protection from winds.

Edited July 23, 2020 by SoulofthePlace

[lzorrito]

17 hours ago, SoulofthePlace said:

I buy everything from sand, to turf, to bagged soiled and to trucked soil and I brought large bags of perlite and a small bag of vermiculite from Home Depot and Lowe's in the US since for some strange reason they do not have vermiculite or perlite in Portugal and they will not even be able to order it for me. We got ocean bottom sand with remains of sea shells and no river sand. That kind of sand releases salts into the walls of buildings that look like salt crystals that damage the wall integrity in the long run. I use it to mix for planting some species such as Medjool. I do make my own compost from food scraps, leaves, egg containers etc. Then I mix everything to create potting soil and even to add to some pits when planting trees. I use pine bark as mulch only. I was able to purchase 50 small 10 liter bags of potting soil recently.

So the Areca catechu seedlings (germinated seeds that arrived looking dead with their leaves dried up) but I still hope to revive them so at the time I only had peat available and planted those semi-dead seedlings into a pot with pure peat some couple months ago. They still are the same, not completely dead and not growing even a bit.

You can buy all of that in Portugal mainland, Algarve. I buy perlite, vermiculite, cocopeat, and whatever I need near where I live, in big cheap 100/120lt bags. Try to contact Matdiver (Perlite/vermiculite/potting soil) and Messinagro(cocopeat/peatmoss/and all kinds of special seedling potting soil and other cool stuff), but by phone, they have everything you need, I think they can ship that to Pico. If you need more information, be free to ask.

You can also buy online. Try cognoscitiva online shop, it´s more expensive, but they can ship that directly to you.

Oh, did you try on Terceira Island local Agriculture warehouses? I also think they can help you a lot.

The coarse sand, please try on your nearby streams, up, before they reach the sea. Almost all of the sand on the sea bottom around Pico comes from the local streams, like the ones around Prainha, Canto da Areia, Terra Alta, and Santo Amaro...it's worth a try.

And please try to add bagacina, palms love that. That´s what the Canary Islands growers use...and on other places.I often receive seedlings from Spain and even from Germany, whose potting soil contains "bagacina".

[lzorrito]

I am also growing Alfies (pics) from seed, and others, like Dypsis Arenarum, C. seifrizii... Also growing from seedling: Areca tiandra;  Dypsis fibrosa; Dypsis lancelota; Chambeyronia macrocarpa(doing great, you should try there); Latania lontaroides; Pritchardia minor; Veitchia spiralis (arriving) and many others (pics).

I´m curious about Areca catchu, here...one of this days I´ll give try. Yours looks fine.

Doing great with the 3 Hyophorbe sp here! H. indica grows like like a rocket here...I wonder there in Pico. Think it´s a great palm for you to try.

As for the coconut, I'm trying it a second time ... let's see. In one, removed all the original soil, without damaging the roots. Used a mix without organic matter: coarse cocopeat; perlite; vermiculite; and expanded clay, with a layer of this clay at the bottom of the pot, also made of clay. Super draining mix (especially at the top, which is what I intend to experience) , but retaining a lot of moisture around the roots. I water it every two, three days, according to daily temperatures and air moisture. The other I kept the original soil, to which I added the previous mix enriched with coarse peat, top substract, pine bark, and a blend of earthworm humus, in a plastic pot. Water twice a week. Only morning sun, under an open porch. They are doing great, we will see ... they are about 6 feet now (pics).

 

[SoulofthePlace]

Hello lzorrito,

Thank you for your suggestions and referrals, I will look them up. Already found bags of vermiculite at your referred online shop. Do you mean "bagacina" as in fine bagaço?

Your coconuts are 180cm tall now? Algarve lows must be close to the Azores. Do you get as low as +6C there? Yet much hotter during summer than the Azores? 45C or more? Your first photo looks like Beccariophoenix alfredii. The second one a coconut perhaps? I am using a plastic bag method (with little bit of water) to germinate a coconut, but so far it's been 17 days in the bucket of water and 1 month in the bag but only gets white mold on it and a tiny bit of a bump on a couple of the 3 holes. No 2 week germination here. We have 27C today in the shade at 140 m altitude. The coconut is in the garage at higher and more constant temperatures. 3rd and 4th photo is probably Dypsis? I only germinated one Dypsis seed and it all dried up now for unknown reasons even it was taken care of well. I'm not too much into hard-to-grow plants. The last photo of yours is Latania that I have also in pots and they are very easy growers even in winter (outdoors). Mine is marked as Latania loddigesii since I purchased seeds under that name (from RPS). Yours is Latania lontaroides? Can't tell the difference. I am attaching my Latania.

[lzorrito]

Hello, SoulofthePlace, you're welcome. Glad I could help. Anything else you need to find, just ask.

Yes, that's it, Pico's fine red bagaço. I lived for some years on Terceira,...bagacina, that's how they call it there. On Pico, bagaço, that's it!

My coconuts are now 1, 80mt high, showing a nice growth and pulling news spears each three weeks (pic attached). I'm using liquid fertilizer on them, COMPO Liquid Fertilizer for Green Plants and Palms, works fine, and for all the others palms also. On Winter time I'm planing on taking them inside as evening/night falls, and taking them outside when the sun shines and temps are above +18ºC, wich is normal around my place (southfacing, sea level "7mt alt.", and wall/building protected from cold dry winter north/northeast winds). As low as 6ºC its very, but very rare where I live, and probably just for a few hours. Last winter, minimal was 8ºC, just before sunrise. Max temps here are around 39ºC, tops, rarely reaching higher due to sea proximity and some medium high moisture, as you can check on the chart below(pic), showing the last 10 days readings near me.
Yous coconut is showing some tiny bit of a bump? That's good! Must wait then. When sprouted it should start growing fast inside your garege constant temp. What germination mix are you using on it? The white mold...maybe to much organic matter on the mix? As soon as I get a viable coconut here (looking around local stores), I'll try with cocopeat (lots of it), perlite, and vermiculite mix, and another one with just cocopeat and perlite(lots).
You got 27ºC, and 82% moisture (probably higher at your altitude), today? That's hot and wet!! (Just checked Spotazores cam by Clube Naval/Fabrica da Baleia, it looks fantastic there today, as always...!) I think that your local climate in São Roque is great for Chamaedoreas, do you have any? Have some, grow great around here. I am attaching my Chamaedorea costaricana (2 mts) among Alocacias. Hyophorbe indica (red) would also be great. I've got one, nice growing palm!

Last post 3rd photo: Dypsis fibrosa; Dypsis lancelota; Chambeyronia macrocarpa; Archontophoenix maxima (trunk).

My Dpysis arenarum are now sprouting (pic attached). I am also attaching some of my Phoenix roebellenii seedlings (pic attached), wich are growing fast and strong.
Your Dypsis seed dried up? What sp was it? Light or heavy germination mix? I also dont tend to hard-to-grow plants, but sometimes I can't resist...I´m now growing my 4th attempeted Musa Maurelii red abyssinian, using a humus rich, but fast draining mix, water only once a week... and thinking about starting an Adonidia merrillii!!

[SoulofthePlace]

On 7/26/2020 at 6:33 PM, lzorrito said:

Hello, SoulofthePlace, you're welcome. Glad I could help. Anything else you need to find, just ask.

Yes, that's it, Pico's fine red bagaço. I lived for some years on Terceira,...bagacina, that's how they call it there. On Pico, bagaço, that's it!

My coconuts are now 1, 80mt high, showing a nice growth and pulling news spears each three weeks (pic attached). I'm using liquid fertilizer on them, COMPO Liquid Fertilizer for Green Plants and Palms, works fine, and for all the others palms also. On Winter time I'm planing on taking them inside as evening/night falls, and taking them outside when the sun shines and temps are above +18ºC, wich is normal around my place (southfacing, sea level "7mt alt.", and wall/building protected from cold dry winter north/northeast winds). As low as 6ºC its very, but very rare where I live, and probably just for a few hours. Last winter, minimal was 8ºC, just before sunrise. Max temps here are around 39ºC, tops, rarely reaching higher due to sea proximity and some medium high moisture, as you can check on the chart below(pic), showing the last 10 days readings near me.
Yous coconut is showing some tiny bit of a bump? That's good! Must wait then. When sprouted it should start growing fast inside your garege constant temp. What germination mix are you using on it? The white mold...maybe to much organic matter on the mix? As soon as I get a viable coconut here (looking around local stores), I'll try with cocopeat (lots of it), perlite, and vermiculite mix, and another one with just cocopeat and perlite(lots).
You got 27ºC, and 82% moisture (probably higher at your altitude), today? That's hot and wet!! (Just checked Spotazores cam by Clube Naval/Fabrica da Baleia, it looks fantastic there today, as always...!) I think that your local climate in São Roque is great for Chamaedoreas, do you have any? Have some, grow great around here. I am attaching my Chamaedorea costaricana (2 mts) among Alocacias. Hyophorbe indica (red) would also be great. I've got one, nice growing palm!

Last post 3rd photo: Dypsis fibrosa; Dypsis lancelota; Chambeyronia macrocarpa; Archontophoenix maxima (trunk).

My Dpysis arenarum are now sprouting (pic attached). I am also attaching some of my Phoenix roebellenii seedlings (pic attached), wich are growing fast and strong.
Your Dypsis seed dried up? What sp was it? Light or heavy germination mix? I also dont tend to hard-to-grow plants, but sometimes I can't resist...I´m now growing my 4th attempeted Musa Maurelii red abyssinian, using a humus rich, but fast draining mix, water only once a week... and thinking about starting an Adonidia merrillii!!

Can I see your coconuts in a lone photo? 1,80cm and in a pot? So your Algarve climate is better for plams than Azores, since my 140m elevation minimum is 8C also and a maximum is 27C but it can be 28C maybe once in 5 years. It will probably hit 28C this August some day. My humidity now is not 82% but more like 65% or even less. It's a drought here for many many weeks with zero rain. My room shows 73% humidity now in the evening, but it was like 63% during days. It winter humidity of course is in the 70% and 80% naturally. We had drought even in January once or twice. For 3 weeks. Plants that were forgotten to be watered wilted and dried. Your climate up to 39% is no problem although you may be spending some serious money on your a/c bill in summer.

Your palm collection is really wonderful and very healthy looking. You must have also learned how to test your soils, which I haven't done yet. I go be "feeling" and by the "look" and even "smell" which is probably wrong. It's a risk and sometimes it ends up as a loss. Yet testing soil isn't it overrated or underrated?

Hyophorbe indica "Southern" I germinated already this summer first time in my life. I bought 10 seeds from RPS and 11 were mailed. 8 germinated so far and all are growing quite fast and are still "needle shaped" seedlings. I plan to plant all or most of my palms in my territory, which is a bit over a hectare, at several levels, each differing by about 5-6 meters. I also got Sabal palmetto "Lisa" germinated this summer and some others. Used to have several dozens very tall Sabals in my yard in the USA, it can be looked up on Google Street View. Sabals are not regarded very attarctive but they grow big and beautiful and can look different with even onion like trunk sometimes.

Regarding germination mix I used turfa mixed with perlite and with cheap store bought potting soil for €1,20 per 10L baggy. Then I also used vermiculite o some palms and some special germination mix from store purchased bags. BIG DIFFERENCE in germination when I used bleach solution before germinating seeds. Before this year I never used bleach and many seeds probably never germinated because they rot. Learning slowly, very slowly, since 2007.

Dypsis baronii I believe, it was it. Only one germinated, from last year. Too finicky to grow. Did you try to grow Pritchardia pacifica? Impossible!

In the local park I found Dracaena draco, short but with a very fat trunk, I am germinating those seeds now, will see what kind of plant it will come out as.

And finally, regarding Areca catechu, there is also a dwarf variety, I bought one last one from Slovakia (Viriar) on "ebay" but it never arrived and it's been almost 3 months now. Same seller Archontophoneix purpurea (3 seedlings), arrived dead. So sadly. The thing is, my one, Areca catechu, in the ground, it looks poor, despite what you say. What kind of burn mark is on it's trunk and why are the fronds so weak and yellowish, only a new fronds of this summer is fine. But still fun to grow a palm that everyone say's shouldn't be grown in the Azores. In fact this Areca catechu, purchased around 2015 from a seller in the Canary Islands was always "just watered" in a pot and always outside, in winter rain and wind and it survived it all undamaged, so I decided that Areca catechu are great species for Azores even if their fronds looks kind of lame, but then most feathery palms here look abused and like fish bones.

Edited July 29, 2020 by SoulofthePlace

[lzorrito]

I'm attaching some lone photos of one of my coconuts. Next to my pateo door and also to my outside table to give scale.

Yes, I also learned how to test my soils, and many other things regarding potted palms culture. Made many experiencies, some failed..I am concerned to know the characteristics of the native soil of the palms and I try to replicate it. It's a constant learning. Each day I'm learning something new. Lots of research on pams literature, communities, specialized sites reading, discussing, and so on...

Hyophorbe indica "Southern" is great choice! Can you post some photos of your seedlings?

Also germinating local Dracaena draco seeds? Great!

Never used bleach solution before germinating seeds. Must try then, thanks. My D. Pembana seeds...almost three months, and still waiting. D. arenarum, as posted before, are doing great.

Regarding your Areca catechu issues. The burn mark on it's trunk and  the weakfronds and yellowish, I think I may help. Two of my Archontophoenix maxima, showing the same symptoms were looking worst. Applied blood meal...nothing...again...nothing! So, I made some research about their native soil and environment, nutrients, moisture, ph, drainage..., and I realized that it was  about some nutrients deficiency, namely Mg and Mn and lack of drainage and soil areation, . I changed the soil and applied earthworm humus on it, which is the best natural fertilizer there is. It is not as fast as chemists, but the results are fantastic! They are recovering exceptionally. Try it, will see the results in a couple of weeks.