Recommendations for SE coastal NC?

[NCFM]

I will be heading down to my grandparents beach house in Emerald Isle, NC come early July. They've asked me to do some landscaping while I'm there, so of course I will be planting some new palms. The property already has one large Butia, but that's it. I am already planning on adding some sabal minor around shady areas and a couple sabal palmetto out in full sun. I'd like to add some other, less typical palms as well, so I was wondering if any of you might have some recommendations? Emerald Isle is zone 8a/b.  Thanks

[Allen]

I'm no NC expert but Trachy Fortunei for sure, a Waggy, Chaemaerops.  Other rarer Sabal like Birmingham, Louisiana, Brazoria.    Needle if you want a bush.

[Fusca]

I'd try Chamaedorea radicalis and maybe even a mule palm on the south side of the house.

[NCFM]

30 minutes ago, Allen said:

I'm no NC expert but Trachy Fortunei for sure, a Waggy, Chaemaerops.  Other rarer Sabal like Birmingham, Louisiana, Brazoria.    Needle if you want a bush.

For some reason trachycarpus fortunei don't do so well down at the beach, probably a combination of sandy soil and intense heat during a big chunk of the year. In my experience they do and look much better up in the piedmont where I live because we have clay soil and a little cooler temps. Not sure about the other varieties like waggy. 

I'm glad you mentioned sabal brazoria, I had nearly forgotten about that variety. Good looking palm for sure! I'll have to see if any nurseries around have them in stock

Update: looks like PlantDelights nursery in Raleigh carries sabal x brazoria. Raleigh is on the way down anyway, might have to make a pitstop and pick one up

Edited June 15, 2020 by NC_Palm_Enthusiast

[NCFM]

13 minutes ago, Fusca said:

I'd try Chamaedorea radicalis and maybe even a mule palm on the south side of the house.

Good idea! Those might be palms I'd have to order online, do you know of any reliable sites?

[NCFM]

Does anyone have any experience with sabal tamaulipas? Thinking of giving that one a try as well, apparently like sabal minor but with larger fronds and grows three times as fast

[Allen]

11 minutes ago, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

Good idea! Those might be palms I'd have to order online, do you know of any reliable sites?

Mule palms of MS has them online.  But I think they might die unprotected in 8.  You need to find a local nursery.  Mayby Trachy in the shade??  The Brazoria at Plant Delights grow slow and are small is only negative.  The faster bigger palms would be to get a regenerated trunked Palmetto or a Trachy as those grow faster.     

[NCFM]

6 minutes ago, Allen said:

Mule palms of MS has them online.  But I think they might die unprotected in 8.  You need to find a local nursery.  Mayby Trachy in the shade??  The Brazoria at Plant Delights grow slow and are small is only negative.  The faster bigger palms would be to get a regenerated trunked Palmetto or a Trachy as those grow faster.     

Yeah maybe a trachy would do ok in shade, it's just the sandy soil that worries me. Never know until you try, though! The Mule palms of Mississippi website says their mules are proven from 8a up, so maybe it'd be worth giving one of those a try too

Edited June 15, 2020 by NC_Palm_Enthusiast

[8B palms]

What about a jubutia or bujubia, they will both be impressive palms, possible some needles, like someone else suggested c. radicals or C. microspadix if you have a shadier area. Sabal minor emerald giant should do well in that area.

[yabazid]

Try Gary’s nursery in New Bern, NC. I got from him a palmetto, a minor, brazoria and a Birmingham. These are bullet proof there and growing very well for me in my z8a upstate SC

[Fusca]

12 hours ago, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

Good idea! Those might be palms I'd have to order online, do you know of any reliable sites?

For Chamaedorea radicalis, I'd check with @TexasColdHardyPalms  Other possibilities would be @Josh-O and Jungle Music.

[NCFM]

4 hours ago, Fusca said:

For Chamaedorea radicalis, I'd check with @TexasColdHardyPalms  Other possibilities would be @Josh-O and Jungle Music.

Thanks

[NCFM]

6 hours ago, yabazid said:

Try Gary’s nursery in New Bern, NC. I got from him a palmetto, a minor, brazoria and a Birmingham. These are bullet proof there and growing very well for me in my z8a upstate SC

What size was the palmetto you purchased from him? I'm still debating on if I should get one that is already trunking or opt for a smaller size 

Edited June 15, 2020 by NC_Palm_Enthusiast

[yabazid]

17 minutes ago, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

What size was the palmetto you purchased from him? I'm still debating on if I should get one that is already trunking or opt for a smaller size 

If I remember correctly the palmetto was probably 15G. I can’t say for sure, but I would check before hand with them if that’s the size you are looking for

[NCFM]

9 minutes ago, yabazid said:

If I remember correctly the palmetto was probably 15G. I can’t say for sure, but I would check before hand with them if that’s the size you are looking for

Ok, thanks

[PalmatierMeg]

Also, don't forget Emerald Isle, NC has a native Sabal minor Emerald Isle Giant. It is notable for large leaves that look blue at certain light levels. I got mine from Plant Delights but maybe you can locate one on the island.

Sabal minor Emerald Isle Giant in Cape Coral, FL

[NCFM]

40 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Also, don't forget Emerald Isle, NC has a native Sabal minor Emerald Isle Giant. It is notable for large leaves that look blue at certain light levels. I got mine from Plant Delights but maybe you can locate one on the island.

Sabal minor Emerald Isle Giant in Cape Coral, FL

That variety is beautiful for sure. I've seen it growing wild at one of the parks on the island (not 100% sure but it had that same blue tint as yours and much larger fronds than typical sabal minor). There were also tons of sabal palmetto volunteers around in the woods there, probably spread by nearby florida transplants. Tallest looked to have about three feet of trunk. I'll try to take some pictures when I'm there

Edited June 15, 2020 by NC_Palm_Enthusiast

[Manalto]

How do you think Sabal causiarum would do? It might be a nice specimen if there's a spot for it.

[NCFM]

5 minutes ago, Manalto said:

How do you think Sabal causiarum would do? It might be a nice specimen if there's a spot for it.

That is by far my favorite sabal variety. I'd love to give it a try, but I've had trouble finding any for sale. I've also heard conflicting opinions on cold hardiness for that variety. Do you think it would fare well at the 8a/b border?

Edited June 16, 2020 by NC_Palm_Enthusiast

[Allen]

1 hour ago, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

That is by far my favorite sabal variety. I'd love to give it a try, but I've had trouble finding any for sale. I've also heard conflicting opinions on cold hardiness for that variety. Do you think it would fare well at the 8a/b border?

Check the freeze damage data on here.  Looks like 13F-20F range they get damage.

[NCFM]

42 minutes ago, Allen said:

Check the freeze damage data on here.  Looks like 13F-20F range they get damage.

I've heard that, but then there are also some that claim theirs show no damage even into the lower teens. Some say it's a zone 9 palm, but others say 8. @JLeVert has some growing in Augusta, GA which is pretty far inland and zone 8a, and they apparently do very well. And then to add to the confusion sometimes the more cold sensistive sabal domingenis is mistaken for s. causiarum. So, overall I'm still fairly confused lol

[Manalto]

Speak to Joseph at North Texas Cold Hardy Palms. He'll be able to tell you what to expect and he can ship you one if you decide to pull the trigger. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Manalto

[NCFM]

12 minutes ago, Manalto said:

Speak to Joseph at North Texas Cold Hardy Palms. He'll be able to tell you what to expect and he can ship you one if you decide to pull the trigger. 

Will do, thanks

[kinzyjr]

@NC_Palm_Enthusiast Anyone ever try any of the Brahea genus that far north?

[NCFM]

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

@NC_Palm_Enthusiast Anyone ever try any of the Brahea genus that far north?

I'm not entirely sure, if they have I haven't heard about it.

[Joe NC]

11 hours ago, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

I'm not entirely sure, if they have I haven't heard about it.

I've killed 2 Brahea clara here in Wilmington NC.  One survived "the" polar vortex winter at a small size in the ground just protected by a 5gal. bucket.  It had damage for sure, but  came out of that winter growing and in much better shape than some of my other palms.  The other was potted and brought in during any below freezing temps.  They both died during the warm and wet summer months.  Maybe planted in pure beach sand B. clara would do better?  I currently have a Brahea "super silver" planted in the ground very (too) close to a SE facing brick wall.  It is not breaking any speed records for growth, but it doesn't seem too bothered by whatever winter has thrown at it, or the summer wetness. (no protection in the winter)   It is under the eave of the house in my most warm and protected micro-climate, so not getting exposed to the worst 8a has to offer.  I think it has pushed a wrinkly spear in the spring a couple of times, but nothing worse (probably better since it doesn't spear pull) than any Trachy of similar size.  I can snap a photo, but it is nothing to brag about yet...  Might be worth a try at your beach house as something that will look unique if it survives and when it silvers out.

Going with the silver theme:

Sabal uresana (the silver blue highlands type) has been no problem in the ground for me so far.  Even in it's spindly awkward newly palmate stage it is looking very silver.  I'm guessing your beach neighbors wont have one of these...  

Silver Saw Palmetto,  I have mixed results.  It is a clumper, but the smaller offshoots seem to get killed during the winter.  However, the few that have gained enough size seem to survive just fine and there is a net gain in plant size.   One of these will probably do just fine at your beach house, since that is its natural habitat.     

Also maybe try a date palm (just not the pygmy that everybody buys a a big box, then has a dead carcass in their yard by Jan).  There are a handful of CIDP around NC that have survived to various sizes.  They usually are completely defoliated every few winters, but many of them seem to come back.  It probably keeps them from getting as massive as they could be.  Could be an interesting zone push to try at your beach house, just maybe not in a prominent location since it will probably look awful every few winters.  I have some Phoenix theoprasti seedlings that are a couple years old that I am debating what to do with.  I'm kind of scared to plant it in the yard as an experiment, just in case it actually survives and I have a spiny monster to deal with.  I'm actually considering guerrilla planting one in a good micro-climate someplace downtown....     

     

Edited June 18, 2020 by Joe NC
typo

[NCFM]

3 hours ago, Joe NC said:

I've killed 2 Brahea clara here in Wilmington NC.  One survived "the" polar vortex winter at a small size in the ground just protected by a 5gal. bucket.  It had damage for sure, but  came out of that winter growing and in much better shape than some of my other palms.  The other was potted and brought in during any below freezing temps.  They both died during the warm and wet summer months.  Maybe planted in pure beach sand B. clara would do better?  I currently have a Brahea "super silver" planted in the ground very (too) close to a SE facing brick wall.  It is not breaking any speed records for growth, but it doesn't seem too bothered by whatever winter has thrown at it, or the summer wetness. (no protection in the winter)   It is under the eave of the house in my most warm and protected micro-climate, so not getting exposed to the worst 8a has to offer.  I think it has pushed a wrinkly spear in the spring a couple of times, but nothing worse (probably better since it doesn't spear pull) than any Trachy of similar size.  I can snap a photo, but it is nothing to brag about yet...  Might be worth a try at your beach house as something that will look unique if it survives and when it silvers out.

Going with the silver theme:

Sabal uresana (the silver blue highlands type) has been no problem in the ground for me so far.  Even in it's spindly awkward newly palmate stage it is looking very silver.  I'm guessing your beach neighbors wont have one of these...  

Silver Saw Palmetto,  I have mixed results.  It is a clumper, but the smaller offshoots seem to get killed during the winter.  However, the few that have gained enough size seem to survive just fine and there is a net gain in plant size.   One of these will probably do just fine at your beach house, since that is its natural habitat.     

Also maybe try a date palm (just not the pygmy that everybody buys a a big box, then has a dead carcass in their yard by Jan).  There are a handful of CIDP around NC that have survived to various sizes.  They usually are completely defoliated every few winters, but many of them seem to come back.  It probably keeps them from getting as massive as they could be.  Could be an interesting zone push to try at your beach house, just maybe not in a prominent location since it will probably look awful every few winters.  I have some Phoenix theoprasti seedlings that are a couple years old that I am debating what to do with.  I'm kind of scared to plant it in the yard as an experiment, just in case it actually survives and I have a spiny monster to deal with.  I'm actually considering guerrilla planting one in a good micro-climate someplace downtown....     

     

As of now I'm thinking I'll try a sabal mexicana and a causiarum, also maybe some tamaulipas in the shade somewhere. Mexicana should be bullet proof if it is just as hardy as palmetto, causiarum might be little more risky but it's worth it. 

I'd also like to try the uresana silver highlands that you mentioned if I have room. It looks like Gary's nursery in New Bern carries uresana but I'm not sure if it's the highlands or coastal variety. 

As for date palms, I'd love to try a cidp or something like that. The only thing holding me back is lack of space after I plant all the stuff mentioned above. Here is what looks like a young sylvestris (I think, still not great at identifying date species) I found on google street view in Emerald Isle. I'll make sure to go by that address and check on it when I'm down there. If it's still alive that would definitely be encouraging.

[yabazid]

1 hour ago, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

 

I would like to know what variety of ursana Gary’s nursery is carrying as well. Please let me know what you find out

[NCFM]

@yabazid Here's the picture from their website, not entirely sure if it's still in stock or not as the list is from the summer of 2019. I don't know enough to tell the difference between the two but maybe someone else here does:

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by NC_Palm_Enthusiast

[Joe NC]

On 6/18/2020 at 1:10 PM, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

As of now I'm thinking I'll try a sabal mexicana 

It looks like Gary's nursery in New Bern carries uresana but I'm not sure if it's the highlands or coastal variety.

 

I have what I am pretty sure is a S. mexicana.  I bought it in 2008 thinking it was a Brazoria (it was called xtexensis).   It was supposdley 10 years old from seed at that point, in a pretty big pot but still small enough to bring home in a small SUV.  Once in the ground it became apparent by how much trunk and how fast it was growing that it was not a Brazoria.  I thought it was just a regular S. palmetto, but once it finally seeeded it could be ID by its really large seeds.  It has been as hardy as a palmetto here for sure, only ever showing damage to the spear during the one awful winter that damaged everthing.  Other than having larger seeds, it really is hard to tell apart from a S. palmetto, especially to a non palmy person.... So I don't know if it is worth the effort to find and giving it limited yard space if you are looking for something unique?  It might be a little more chunky than my palmetto, but not outside the normal size range of what is around.  It might grow faster too?   It has been in the ground for 12 years and now has probably 10' of tunk (6' of clear no leaves if I am standing under there) so about a foot a year once it started going vertical.  I'll attach a pic.

Also I think when I was at Garry's nursery a few years ago I remember the uresana being the green form?  I think....I went to get an actual Brazoria....

[NCFM]

On 7/4/2020 at 9:29 AM, Joe NC said:

I have what I am pretty sure is a S. mexicana.  I bought it in 2008 thinking it was a Brazoria (it was called xtexensis).   It was supposdley 10 years old from seed at that point, in a pretty big pot but still small enough to bring home in a small SUV.  Once in the ground it became apparent by how much trunk and how fast it was growing that it was not a Brazoria.  I thought it was just a regular S. palmetto, but once it finally seeeded it could be ID by its really large seeds.  It has been as hardy as a palmetto here for sure, only ever showing damage to the spear during the one awful winter that damaged everthing.  Other than having larger seeds, it really is hard to tell apart from a S. palmetto, especially to a non palmy person.... So I don't know if it is worth the effort to find and giving it limited yard space if you are looking for something unique?  It might be a little more chunky than my palmetto, but not outside the normal size range of what is around.  It might grow faster too?   It has been in the ground for 12 years and now has probably 10' of tunk (6' of clear no leaves if I am standing under there) so about a foot a year once it started going vertical.  I'll attach a pic.

Also I think when I was at Garry's nursery a few years ago I remember the uresana being the green form?  I think....I went to get an actual Brazoria....

Thanks for the info, I was unable to track down any mexicanas anyway. Tomorrow I’m picking up a sabal uresana from Gary’s. We’ll see how it does - hopefully well. 

[Fusca]

6 hours ago, NC_Palm_Enthusiast said:

I was unable to track down any mexicanas anyway.

If you're interested in any seeds let me know.  There should be a nice crop on local trees here in a few months.  They're often referred to as Sabal texensis since they're native here.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Fusca

[WSimpson]

Here's a Minor Gary found in the wild in NC .

Will

 

[NCFM]

On 7/11/2020 at 10:57 AM, Will Simpson said:

Here's a Minor Gary found in the wild in NC .

Will

 

I picked up some palms from Gary's Nursery this past Tuesday. While I was there I got to meet and talk with Mr. Hollar himself - it was an honor, he is such a nice guy. I can't wait to make another trip down there soon and buy some more. There were some very impressive palms on the property, I wish I had gotten some pictures.