New to Palmtalk and palms in general. Parrish, FL. Need help with planting a sylvestris or possibly beccariophoenix alfredii.

June 10, 2020

Hello everyone,

I'm new to Palmtalk, palms in general, and even new to my area. I grew up in Miami for the most part and lived in Homestead for a couple of years, and you could pretty much grow anything down there. Now I'm in Parrish, FL which I believe is zone 9B and things are are very different. I've been here for a little over a year and I've already experienced some pretty cold winters. I really love Green Malayans, but from what I've read it's too cold for them long term here. I have 3 triangulated 16'-20' sabals on the front right corner of my house that I'm replacing and I think I've narrowed it down to either a sylvestris or a couple of beccariophoenix alfredii. But I'm so lost I don't even know where to begin.

1. Phoenix Sylvestris: I've seen a few dead in my neighborhood, as well as at least 2 canaries. I'm not sure if their demise was due to poor husbandry or some sort of uncontrollable fungus or disease that could've been prevented. I've heard of lethal bronzing and a few other diseases in certain areas. Does anyone know if there is something that is prevalent in my area and if there is anything I can do to prevent this.

2. beccariophoenix alfredii: This tree is awesome, but I can't seem to find much info on it. I've done quite a bit of research and I can get my hands on a couple of 14' specimens, but even at this size they have very little trunk. Since I am looking for something to frame my house with, I'm not sure this would be the right choice, if they're going to stay shrubby looking for a super long time. That being said, I can't help but still want to consider it because it's such a cool tree. The only images I've actually seen of this tree with actual clear trunks are the ones on Wikipedia. What can you tell me about this tree, is it prone to anything I should know of, is it a super slow grower?

I should mention that I plan on planting these myself and I would love some pointers. I am not in a hurry and I do not want to rush the job, I simply want to do it right and give the trees the best chance to survive and hopefully thrive. I'm also open to suggestions if you feel like I'm overlooking any other species I should be considering.

I appreciate you taking the time to read this and thanks in advance!

-Felix

June 10, 2020

@Fbordon

Welcome to PalmTalk and zone 9b gardening!

Phoenix sylvestris and other members of the Phoenix genus are having issues with Lethal Bronzing. Disease Prevention = don't let anyone touch your plants and keep leaf hoppers far, far away.

Beccariophoenix alfredii should be relatively hardy to your area. A lot of us in 9b already have them. Here is a link to some valuable hardiness info on them:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/8924-beccariophoenix-alfredii/

If you want to see what the rest of us are growing in the "transition zone" between zone 9 and zone 10, here are some threads to look at:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61172-remarkable-palms-of-tampa-bay/
https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/59360-zone-10-palms-in-the-orlando-area-mega-thread/

Might as well get a few Teddy Bear palms while you're at it:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/63970-teddy-bear-seedlings/

Hope this is enough to get you started!

June 10, 2020

Beccariophoenix Alfredii are good for your area and one of my favorites. They’re definitely not rocket ships, but pick up speed as they get more mature. They do not tolerate overhead watering and will develop a black spot fungus that can chew them up pretty bad. Mine have done well in full sun, with ample water/nutrients.

June 10, 2020

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

@Fbordon

Welcome to PalmTalk and zone 9b gardening!

Phoenix sylvestris and other members of the Phoenix genus are having issues with Lethal Bronzing. Disease Prevention = don't let anyone touch your plants and keep leaf hoppers far, far away.

Beccariophoenix alfredii should be relatively hardy to your area. A lot of us in 9b already have them. Here is a link to some valuable hardiness info on them:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/8924-beccariophoenix-alfredii/

If you want to see what the rest of us are growing in the "transition zone" between zone 9 and zone 10, here are some threads to look at:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61172-remarkable-palms-of-tampa-bay/
https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/59360-zone-10-palms-in-the-orlando-area-mega-thread/

Might as well get a few Teddy Bear palms while you're at it:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/63970-teddy-bear-seedlings/

Hope this is enough to get you started!

Thank you, for the quick response. This maybe a silly question, but how do I keep leaf hoppers away? Also I plan on doing my own maintenance. What's your opinion on tye diamond cut done at the grow farm?

June 10, 2020

56 minutes ago, Hferrell87 said:

Beccariophoenix Alfredii are good for your area and one of my favorites. They’re definitely not rocket ships, but pick up speed as they get more mature. They do not tolerate overhead watering and will develop a black spot fungus that can chew them up pretty bad. Mine have done well in full sun, with ample water/nutrients.

That looks amazing! What's the overall height and age? Did you grow it from seed? Also, in regards to the fungus am I going to have an issue with the excessive rain we get here, especially in the summer?

June 10, 2020

Just now, Fbordon said:

Thank you, for the quick response. This maybe a silly question, but how do I keep leaf hoppers away? Also I plan on doing my own maintenance. What's your opinion on tye diamond cut done at the grow farm?

On leaf hoppers and lethal bronzing: You can spray with pesticide, but it hasn't proven as a good deterrent to the bugs. By the time they get poisoned and marked for death, they've usually bitten your plant and possibly infected it. There are two control methods, one is fool-proof and the other is more preventative. Prevention first - keep your plants healthy. If they are happy, the bugs tend to go after the less healthy specimens and get them. I have several species of Phoenix growing in Lakeland and we're probably the 2nd worst place for Lethal Bronzing... right next to Tampa. The other control method is to plant other species. If you want a hardy alternative, most localities are going with Livistona decora. We have a lot of Archontophoenix here. I haven't seen a mass die-off anywhere and they are not listed on the UF/IFAS link above. They are gorgeous and don't often need protection (unless we start partying like it's 1989).

Climate Considerations: In the 9b/10a borderline areas, it really comes down to how risk averse you are as a gardener. Most areas can drop into the high teens or low 20s in 198x-style freeze events up here. That's one benchmark. In January 2010, most areas dropped into the mid-to-upper 20s, with some of the outlying areas again hitting the teens. It stayed pretty chilly for about 2 weeks. That's another benchmark freeze. For me personally, if a palm survived 1985 and 1989, it's bulletproof. If it was able to survive Jan. 2008 + Jan. 2010 + Jan. 2018 - I consider it long-term hardy.

My opinion on Diamond Cut: Well, it looks awesome on Phoenix palms! I can't say that it seems to affect whether or not a palm gets infected with disease without seeing some data to back that up.

I haven't diamond cut my own Phoenix dactylifera specimens (grown from seed), but a hundred years after I'm pushing up daises my stock could look like this if they were diamond cut: Phoenix dactylifera - Diamond Cut

Here are some of my palms:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/52296-palms-and-others-of-interest/

I do grow coconuts here and you could grow Green Malayans there if you want, just be prepared in case we get a nasty cold front. There are some survivors along the I-4 corridor in warm microclimates (usually water modified and/or urban heat islands), but the bulk took a beating or perished in January 2010 or January 2018. I personally grow Atlantic Tall/Jamaican Tall, Maypan and Green Malayan.

June 10, 2020

55 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

On leaf hoppers and lethal bronzing: You can spray with pesticide, but it hasn't proven as a good deterrent to the bugs. By the time they get poisoned and marked for death, they've usually bitten your plant and possibly infected it. There are two control methods, one is fool-proof and the other is more preventative. Prevention first - keep your plants healthy. If they are happy, the bugs tend to go after the less healthy specimens and get them. I have several species of Phoenix growing in Lakeland and we're probably the 2nd worst place for Lethal Bronzing... right next to Tampa. The other control method is to plant other species. If you want a hardy alternative, most localities are going with Livistona decora. We have a lot of Archontophoenix here. I haven't seen a mass die-off anywhere and they are not listed on the UF/IFAS link above. They are gorgeous and don't often need protection (unless we start partying like it's 1989).

Climate Considerations: In the 9b/10a borderline areas, it really comes down to how risk averse you are as a gardener. Most areas can drop into the high teens or low 20s in 198x-style freeze events up here. That's one benchmark. In January 2010, most areas dropped into the mid-to-upper 20s, with some of the outlying areas again hitting the teens. It stayed pretty chilly for about 2 weeks. That's another benchmark freeze. For me personally, if a palm survived 1985 and 1989, it's bulletproof. If it was able to survive Jan. 2008 + Jan. 2010 + Jan. 2018 - I consider it long-term hardy.

My opinion on Diamond Cut: Well, it looks awesome on Phoenix palms! I can't say that it seems to affect whether or not a palm gets infected with disease without seeing some data to back that up.

I haven't diamond cut my own Phoenix dactylifera specimens (grown from seed), but a hundred years after I'm pushing up daises my stock could look like this if they were diamond cut: Phoenix dactylifera - Diamond Cut

Here are some of my palms:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/52296-palms-and-others-of-interest/

I do grow coconuts here and you could grow Green Malayans there if you want, just be prepared in case we get a nasty cold front. There are some survivors along the I-4 corridor in warm microclimates (usually water modified and/or urban heat islands), but the bulk took a beating or perished in January 2010 or January 2018. I personally grow Atlantic Tall/Jamaican Tall, Maypan and Green Malayan.

In your opinion, do you think the Maypan or the Green Malayan is going to be hardier and does the size make a difference when it comes to surviving the cold. Im pretty stoked about revisiting the idea of coconuts again. Here are some shots with and without the sabals.

June 10, 2020

I'm pretty familiar with Parrish, and you're going to have a tough time keeping a coconut alive long-term, especially out in the open like that. I'd definitely go with the Beccariophoenix alfredii over any Phoenix species there as well, due to the prevalence of lethal bronzing (P. sylvestris seems to be especially susceptible). They're not as fast growing as a coconut, but they'll be hardy to your zone. There are some trunking specimens around, but it's relative new to cultivation, so you have to know where to find them. The Searle nursery has a nice one (and you can pick up some other 9b palms while you're there!).

Here's a trunking B. alfredii down in Davie, Fl (the picture is almost 2 years old though, so the palms are probably bigger by now)

June 10, 2020

7 hours ago, Fbordon said:

In your opinion, do you think the Maypan or the Green Malayan is going to be hardier and does the size make a difference when it comes to surviving the cold. Im pretty stoked about revisiting the idea of coconuts again. Here are some shots with and without the sabals.

You have a really nice slice of paradise there. Thank you for the photos!

In regard to coconuts, what @Zeeth speaks is the truth. He has probably forgot more about coconuts than I currently know. At some point, all of us in USDA zone 9b will lose them.

That said, if you want to put one in, cultivar selection is important in planning. You've narrowed your selection down to Maypan and Green Malayan. Those are good semi-dwarf choices that you can protect for a while and are easy to remove if they succumb to cold/disease. The Green Malayan is the better option of the two in my opinion, not necessarily because of cold hardiness, but because of growth rate. They grow slower and are easier to shelter if necessary. Any variety will get more cold tolerant as they get larger, but you'll risk losing any of them in any year where we get a bad freeze.

Another good variety to consider is Fiji Dwarf is a true dwarf cultivar that stays close to the ground and would be easier to protect, but would require a larger footprint near the ground. The crown is pretty wide and typically sits 6 feet or less off of the ground, but you can reach down to harvest instead of up.

Siting is important for areas like ours. In a perfect zone 9b world, you'd want the palm under high canopy, near a heated building facing southeast, on a property with plenty of windbreaks, near a lot of concrete and/or stone, with a lake nearby. Looking at your layout:

It looks like you may eventually have some canopy there from the live oaks, but it will be a bit until the oaks are large enough to provide it. Palms that don't like frost tend to like being under canopy, but for a coconut to grow well, the canopy would have to be fairly high to let sun in under it. Having a high enough canopy to use is probably far enough away not to worry about it as part of your siting.
Which side of your house faces south or southeast? That's probably the best place to put it, given the hand you're dealt. The closer to the house, the better. You may want to plant it leaning away from the house. If you plant it some distance away, it might take more damage from a windy advective freeze like January 2018.
Consider using Christmas lights. They help keep the temperature up on those cold nights, especially if you have to cover your palm. Be sure to get the old school lights, not the new LEDs that give off no heat. You'll want to take precautions to make sure the bulbs don't touch the plant tissue as well since it can damage or burn it in the spots where the bulb touches.
Have some blankets and some ropes set aside to wrap up at least the bud. If we get a bad freeze, you'll need them.

These are the average and record climate conditions you'll face. The record lows in Central Florida are scary.

Here are some young coconuts wrapped up when I expect a hard freeze.

Here is my Malayan Dwarf before Spectrum dug into the roots (it's still alive, but regrowing its crown)

Here is a Maypan

An Atlantic Tall/Jamaican Tall

June 10, 2020

11 hours ago, Fbordon said:

That looks amazing! What's the overall height and age? Did you grow it from seed? Also, in regards to the fungus am I going to have an issue with the excessive rain we get here, especially in the summer?

My largest BA is almost ten years in the ground( in 2months), about 25' overall and about that wide with ~ 20 green leaves. The trunk with leafbases on is 3' or so. I started with (3) 3 gallon size plants which are now 16-25' overall with the sun exposure being the obvious dominant factor in height. We had 21 days in a row of rain in august last year, no signs of any mold or issues in any of them. Mine is in all day sun, just after dawn to dusk. Sylvestris will grow well here, but watch the heavy clay construction soil, they look crappy when the soil doesnt dry cycle. We have them in my neighborhood, the best ones are away from the house. Alfredii do well in wet soil as long as it drains. I have one that is about 7-8' from the corner of the house in 1/2 construction clay. Alfredii get big and wide for a palm used close to a house. The closest one I have within 7-8' of the corner of the house, I cut off some green fronds(which I rarely do) that could contact with the roof and damage shingles in wind. Once its up over the house, no problem, probably another 5 years. The sylvestris is a much smaller palm in crown if it is pure, but there are hybrids that can get pretty big. the biggest issue I have with sylvestris is the trimming, very painful and there are 30-50 leaves a year to trim if its healthy. For me in zone 9b( on the 10a line almost), the beccariophoenix alfredii is my best 9b pinnate palm. Its leaf hardier to cold than teddy bears, kentiopsis oliviformis, or dypsis pembana by a good amount. BA likes water but handles drought very well(60 days no rain/ no irrigation one spring), and hurricane force winds(65-75mph in IRMA for 5-6 hrs) better than any pinnate palm in my yard. In 10 years those alfrediis are going to be far more impressive trees than the sylvestris. In my experience some palms get better with age and some don't. Alfredii belong to the former group, P. sylvestris to the latter. Here is my BA that is close to the house.

June 10, 2020

12 hours ago, Fbordon said:

That looks amazing! What's the overall height and age? Did you grow it from seed? Also, in regards to the fungus am I going to have an issue with the excessive rain we get here, especially in the summer?

Overall height is around 18'-19' and purchased it as a field grown specimen a little over a year ago. I'm not 100% sure what the age is, but would guess in the 12-15 year range?? It's good practice to treat these with a preventative fungicide prior to the rainy season. As they put on size, they will need it less and less.

June 10, 2020

A coconut will not be a long term survivor for you. BA's can be really slow and seem way better suited for full sun otherwise those really long fronds get really really really long. I do love BA's but it will be ions before one trunks for you unless bought really large. You might also look into mule palms for your area, cold hardy and a pleasant look, they are reasonably fast growers and probably easier to find a big one the BA's.

June 10, 2020

41 minutes ago, Hferrell87 said:

Overall height is around 18'-19' and purchased it as a field grown specimen a little over a year ago. I'm not 100% sure what the age is, but would guess in the 12-15 year range?? It's good practice to treat these with a preventative fungicide prior to the rainy season. As they put on size, they will need it less and less.

Does the BA transplant well or did it go through a stunted period? Also, have you had any noticable growth in that year, and where did you get it?

June 10, 2020

15 minutes ago, redant said:

A coconut will not be a long term survivor for you. BA's can be really slow and seem way better suited for full sun otherwise those really long fronds get really really really long. I do love BA's but it will be ions before one trunks for you unless bought really large. You might also look into mule palms for your area, cold hardy and a pleasant look, they are reasonably fast growers and probably easier to find a big one the BA's.

I can get my hands on some field grown 10'-14' BA's with a little trunk, I'll include some photos for reference. Since this tree is so heavy looking I think I could get away with placing just 1 in the corner to replace the 3 sabals I removed, but my concern is that I would be using it as the main tree to frame my house on a corner lot. If it were anywhere or in the back, it wouldn't concern me, I just I wouldn't want to put in a 14' tree and in 5 years it looks the same or maybe 15'.

June 10, 2020

that is a big palm already, it will probably take a 2 year pause then resume in its growth. I'd get 2.

June 10, 2020

2 hours ago, Fbordon said:

Does the BA transplant well or did it go through a stunted period? Also, have you had any noticable growth in that year, and where did you get it?

I purchased two around the same size. The one in the picture above didn't even flinch with the transplant, while the other died from stress on the crown/meristem during transport. The one that died ended up needing re-positioned on the trailer, but didn't notice until I made it back to the property with them.

They hold a lot of weight above ground, so be sure to get ample rootball size, add stability once planted and be very careful to not disturb the crown too much. In general, all palms will go through a stunted period if their roots are cut. All natural as they're focusing their energy to root production, which is what you want.

June 11, 2020

7 hours ago, Fbordon said:

I can get my hands on some field grown 10'-14' BA's with a little trunk, I'll include some photos for reference. Since this tree is so heavy looking I think I could get away with placing just 1 in the corner to replace the 3 sabals I removed, but my concern is that I would be using it as the main tree to frame my house on a corner lot. If it were anywhere or in the back, it wouldn't concern me, I just I wouldn't want to put in a 14' tree and in 5 years it looks the same or maybe 15'.

Ok I have to ask, you don't have to answer. How much they get for that big boy? Anyway my experience with these is they will not do what your looking for for a long time, single palms on a corner of the house really doesn't work, you need 3 and these robust boys may be to wide and not tall enough for a long time. Just my opinion, and these are an awesome palm.

June 11, 2020

Welcome aboard! :greenthumb:

June 11, 2020

13 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

Welcome aboard!

Thank you!

June 11, 2020

38 minutes ago, redant said:

Ok I have to ask, you don't have to answer. How much they get for that big boy? Anyway my experience with these is they will not do what your looking for for a long time, single palms on a corner of the house really doesn't work, you need 3 and these robust boys may be to wide and not tall enough for a long time. Just my opinion, and these are an awesome palm.

I think youre right about them being too big/wide to do 3 traingulated, and not big enough as a standalone palm to frame the house. I'm don't mind sharing the price with you at all, but I haven't that far. I want to say those are going to be in the $600-$800 range.

Anyway, I'm so lost. I have no idea what to do. A 6-7' ct sylvestris would look awesome on that corner, but I'm worried about the diseases. And the BA's are amazing trees but it might not be the right tree for that space. I need something with some good amount of trunk so it doesn't block the house.

What else should I be considering for that space in zone 9b that isn't terribly hard to comeby or prone to problems? Am I asking for too much, for the perfect tree that doesnt exist?

June 11, 2020

29 minutes ago, Fbordon said:

What else should I be considering for that space in zone 9b that isn't terribly hard to comeby or prone to problems? Am I asking for too much, for the perfect tree that doesnt exist?

Have you considered Foxtail Palms (Wodyetia bifurcata)? They're fairly easy to find even at larger sizes, crownshafted, and have proven hardy to everything but a 1985 or 1989 style freeze event here.

June 11, 2020

55 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Have you considered Foxtail Palms (Wodyetia bifurcata)? They're fairly easy to find even at larger sizes, crownshafted, and have proven hardy to everything but a 1985 or 1989 style freeze event here.

They’re not quite that bulletproof in 9b. A number of them died around here in 2010 and 2018. Royals seem to do a little better.

I suggest talking to @Ken Johnson about field grown palms. He’s got a good selection and will deliver.

Edited June 11, 2020 by RedRabbit

June 11, 2020

7 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

They’re not quite that bulletproof in 9b. A number of them died around here in 2010 and 2018. Royals seem to do a little better.

I suggest talking to @Ken Johnson about field grown palms. He’s got a good selection and will deliver.

That's what I thought in regards to the foxtails. They're all over my neighborhood and some of them definitely look rough. I love the royals, but aren't they also zone 10? I've also heard they don't transplant well. Where us Ken Johnson located?

June 11, 2020

I have a couple 25-gallon (10-12’) green form foxy lady hybrids (Wodyetia x Veitchia), if you’re open to other palms. I wouldn’t say they are bullet proof for your area, but would be a good candidate.

June 11, 2020

26 minutes ago, Hferrell87 said:

I have a couple 25-gallon (10-12’) green form foxy lady hybrids (Wodyetia x Veitchia), if you’re open to other palms. I wouldn’t say they are bullet proof for your area, but would be a good candidate.

Do you have pictures?

June 11, 2020

28 minutes ago, Fbordon said:

That's what I thought in regards to the foxtails. They're all over my neighborhood and some of them definitely look rough. I love the royals, but aren't they also zone 10? I've also heard they don't transplant well. Where us Ken Johnson located?

9b Tampa has quite a few that have been here since the 90s, but it’s true you don’t see pre-80s royals outside of zone 10.

Ken is in Miami but will deliver anywhere in FL.

Edited June 11, 2020 by RedRabbit

June 11, 2020

10 minutes ago, Fbordon said:

Do you have pictures?

I just sold and delivered this one in the picture the other day. I will take pictures of my remaining ones in the morning.

June 11, 2020

@Fbordon

Royals will probably work as far as hardiness goes once they are large. One concern I would have is the 20-30 pound self-cleaning fronds coming down on top of your understory plantings or your house. Great palm and bonus points for planting native, but make sure you have enough clearance for the frond to fall and not hit anything important.

@RedRabbit alludes to a good point in his response concerning Royals planted previous to the 1980s freezes. If you want your plantings to be 1989 and 1985 hardy, you're talking temperatures in the 18-21F range. Then it becomes a totally different conversation. Now you're looking at 9a and below palms. There's nothing wrong with that from my point of view. It does limit the pallet, though. Take a look at this breakdown:

Approximate number of palms rated at:

8b or less: 74
9a or less: 228
9b or less: 508

June 11, 2020

Welcome to the forum!

I agree with everything everyone has already told you. Definitely a lot of experience on this forum. In my opinion, I would spend the money on a few larger royal palms to frame the house. When they have some trunk they are pretty much 9B hardy in Parrish. And they are fast enough to achieve the look you are going for in a much shorter time. It is ok to play with fast growing zone 10 palms in this area since they grow fast enough to enjoy them between the big freezes. I’d stay away from slow growing or unproven zone 10 palms unless you’re really into the palm hobby. I’d also stay far, far away from any Phoenix species as they are disease prone and/or brutal to maintain. They are pretty though... heck, queen palms are even a no go now due to disease... If that corner of your house that you want to frame is facing south or southeast then you could give green varieties of coconuts a try but not the yellow varieties. I really feel like the yellows are less cold hardy. Also consider Archontophoenix cunninghamiana to frame the corner- very tropical looking and probably one of the tougher crownshafted palms that will grow here. Really, Parrish can be quite variable when it comes to winter temps and radiational cooling. Definitely gets colder East of US 301 during radiational freezes but larger royal palms seem to do fine even East of 301 if that’s where you’re at. West of 301 seems to warm up just enough to start to support coconut growth at least between 10 year freezes which is long enough to enjoy a coconut since they are fast. No coconuts in my immediate area of Parrish died in 2018. Mine is a green variety and was only about 20% burned that year but it is definitely planted in a protected spot on the south side of my house and the neighbors house isn’t too far away either protecting it from north winds. But on the flip side, I lost about 3 small just barely starting to trunk foxtails in 2018 and royals In the neighborhood got about 50% frond burn but did not miss a beat. Adonidia actually did better than small foxtails in 2018 In my neighborhood. Large foxtails with a few feet of clear trunk or more did fine in 2018. So, plant as big as you can afford and muscle if you’re thinking about planting foxtails or royals to frame your house to give the best chance of surviving the next freeze. The B.A.s are beautiful palms and I think you should get some but maybe plant them out in the open in full sun in your back yard Or front yard. As others here already said they get massive crowns close to the ground for years before they trunk. Bismarckia nobilis grows great here too but is another out in the open palm that has too big a crown to be right next to the house. If you’re interested in going native there is a native nursery here on Erie road called Sweet Bay Nursery that Has royals of all sizes and most of the other obscure native FL palms and the native ficus trees. I think if I ever move again, I’m going to try to do my entire yard with “native” plants even though a lot of what I’d use aren’t really native to this part of Florida. Good luck and again, welcome to the forum!

June 11, 2020

There are a lot of palms being mentioned that are probably not going to make it. Foxy ladies are not as cold tolerant as royals and small royals will likely be killed in much of parrish. I am 4 miles west of western parrish so my yard is warmer than parrish by maybe 2-3 degrees in the coldest events. Foxtails hate clay soil in our area, the construction clay up near the house is -I believe- the cause of the substantial deficiencies I see in my neighborhood. It seems to effect foxtails and phoenix sylvestris but not royals who like frequently wet, low drainage soil. I dont grow foxtails on my property because I see how deficient they are all around my neighborhood, yellowing with brown leaflet tips often on half the leaves. When grown right foxtails are beautiful, but in clay up near the house I'd say no. You best bet sounds like a couple of mule palms. They will take a cold 9B with ease, and they grow fast so you can clear the roof to frame the house. I get a sense that you believe that "framing the house" is critical, more important than the way the palm or garden looks. I didnt frame my house, I grew specimen palms out front and have no intention of selling the house. I get ~5-6 calls a year from people that want to buy it unsolicited, so I expect not framing the house did not discourage its value or desirability. Here is my front yard from one street angle. These big fan palms all will have smooth trunks as the leaf bases fall off themselves to an in creasing extent as they get larger. Copernicias have trunks that look a little like like concrete and are favored by architects. They are both 9B but take a while to grow and are expensive as large palms(several thousand each now, ughhh).

June 11, 2020

I vote for Alfies or mules. Both look awesome and are pretty much bulletproof in your area. Also, remember, any palm that starts with “Phoenix” = painful to trim. My forearms look like I have been attacked by a herd of feral cats after pruning my Sylvester.

welcome to PalmTalk. Now get to diggin!

June 11, 2020

2 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

There are a lot of palms being mentioned that are probably not going to make it. Foxy ladies are not as cold tolerant as royals and small royals will likely be killed in much of parrish. I am 4 miles west of western parrish so my yard is warmer than parrish by maybe 2-3 degrees in the coldest events. Foxtails hate clay soil in our area, the construction clay up near the house is -I believe- the cause of the substantial deficiencies I see in my neighborhood. It seems to effect foxtails and phoenix sylvestris but not royals who like frequently wet, low drainage soil. I dont grow foxtails on my property because I see how deficient they are all around my neighborhood, yellowing with brown leaflet tips often on half the leaves. When grown right foxtails are beautiful, but in clay up near the house I'd say no. You best bet sounds like a couple of mule palms. They will take a cold 9B with ease, and they grow fast so you can clear the roof to frame the house. I get a sense that you believe that "framing the house" is critical, more important than the way the palm or garden looks. I didnt frame my house, I grew specimen palms out front and have no intention of selling the house. I get ~5-6 calls a year from people that want to buy it unsolicited, so I expect not framing the house did not discourage its value or desirability. Here is my front yard from one street angle. These big fan palms all will have smooth trunks as the leaf bases fall off themselves to an in creasing extent as they get larger. Copernicias have trunks that look a little like like concrete and are favored by architects. They are both 9B but take a while to grow and are expensive as large palms(several thousand each now, ughhh).

Plenty of good info here.

Royals do transplant well and they are pretty hardy when big but as mentioned they can damage your house. I have about 100, not 1 is next to my house.

While the foxy ladies are a gamble they are spectacular and depending on the cost might be worth the gamble.

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/wiki/Archontophoenix_cunninghamiana these might work for your area, not to hard to find.

My Veitchia arecina have seen some pretty cold nights and never skipped a beat

I have some tall coconut's Panama or whatever, really don't know. My talls have been way hardier in the cold then the stubby little ones, clearly a gamble but hey you only live once. Interested in any let me know.

People say Kentiopsis oliviformis are somewhat cold hardy, mine haven't experience anything to bad yet so no opinion.

June 11, 2020

June 11, 2020

5 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

There are a lot of palms being mentioned that are probably not going to make it. Foxy ladies are not as cold tolerant as royals and small royals will likely be killed in much of parrish. I am 4 miles west of western parrish so my yard is warmer than parrish by maybe 2-3 degrees in the coldest events. Foxtails hate clay soil in our area, the construction clay up near the house is -I believe- the cause of the substantial deficiencies I see in my neighborhood. It seems to effect foxtails and phoenix sylvestris but not royals who like frequently wet, low drainage soil. I dont grow foxtails on my property because I see how deficient they are all around my neighborhood, yellowing with brown leaflet tips often on half the leaves. When grown right foxtails are beautiful, but in clay up near the house I'd say no. You best bet sounds like a couple of mule palms. They will take a cold 9B with ease, and they grow fast so you can clear the roof to frame the house. I get a sense that you believe that "framing the house" is critical, more important than the way the palm or garden looks. I didnt frame my house, I grew specimen palms out front and have no intention of selling the house. I get ~5-6 calls a year from people that want to buy it unsolicited, so I expect not framing the house did not discourage its value or desirability. Here is my front yard from one street angle. These big fan palms all will have smooth trunks as the leaf bases fall off themselves to an in creasing extent as they get larger. Copernicias have trunks that look a little like like concrete and are favored by architects. They are both 9B but take a while to grow and are expensive as large palms(several thousand each now, ughhh).

Your home and garden look amazing! I do admit that I like the aspect of framing the house very much because I have future plans for a pond in the front and I don't necessarily want to block the front of the house. But I most definitely care about the looks of the tree and the overall garden. I build aquariums and water features for a living and I have somewhat of a vision in mind for the future, I just haven't gotten to that yet.

If I go the Royal Palm route, what should be the ideal size range to consider for my best shot at cold hardiness?

I've included some photos of my soil for your review, it seems very sandy but it also holds water very well. Im not sure if this would be considered slow draining or fast draining. I always thought sandy was quick draining, but I never considered what you said about the heavy clay near the homes. I'm not even sure if my soil has clay or not, how would I tell?

Thanks

-Felix

Edited June 11, 2020 by Fbordon

June 11, 2020

1 hour ago, Hferrell87 said:

Those are very nice, they're a bit small for the front, but maybe for a different part of the yard. What do you get for them and where are you located? I live in Parrish and work in Palmetto.

June 11, 2020

4 hours ago, Fbordon said:

Those are very nice, they're a bit small for the front, but maybe for a different part of the yard. What do you get for them and where are you located? I live in Parrish and work in Palmetto.

Planted out they will be around 10-12’ and will explode with growth once rooted in ground. I’m located in central Florida and can trailer to you, if we come to an agreement. I’ll pm you additional information.

June 12, 2020

@Fbordon nice to meet you!

June 12, 2020

@DoomsDave nice to meet you too!

June 12, 2020

@Hferrell87 I do like them, but I need to sort out what I'm doing in the front first before I look into other areas of the yard and I definitely want to start with something bigger out there. They really are beautiful though. How's the growth rate on those compared to mules and how big to they get? Do you have pics of any matures ones?

June 12, 2020

17 minutes ago, Fbordon said:

@Hferrell87 I do like them, but I need to sort out what I'm doing in the front first before I look into other areas of the yard and I definitely want to start with something bigger out there. They really are beautiful though. How's the growth rate on those compared to mules and how big to they get? Do you have pics of any matures ones?

Sounds good. Growth rate is very fast, with a lot of hybrid vigor. I’d assume these will be as fast, or faster than a mule. I’ve attached a photo I grabbed off of google to show the size they can get, or bigger.

WELCOME GUEST

New to Palmtalk and palms in general. Parrish, FL. Need help with planting a sylvestris or possibly beccariophoenix alfredii.

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