Moisture meter question

[Palmfarmer]

the meter goes from 1-10 and i put it down 1 foot. at what reading is it optimal to water the following species, i know this involves a lot of factor but a very rough estimate would help me calm down this stupid watering ocd.   

Bismarck

Butia or mule

Queen 

Filifera

Robusta 

Filibusta 

dypsis lutescens 

phoenix robelini

[Steve Mac]

Farmer, if you are a bit ocd, I may be a bit too relaxed, because I would throw away the meter and use my finger.

I reckon that if you stick your finger in the pots, a few inches should be enough and it is damp then they should be fine. 

I would treat all of those palms the same, in a very short time you will be able to tell what is too wet or dry with your finger.

In your climate (I think) or mine it would be hard to kill any of those babies, if you did if would be from too much water, 

And that would only happen if your soil mix did not drain well enough.

My advice has never been considered 'best practice', but just what works for me here in Sydney Aus.

I think that you could water all of those plants every day or once a week and not test with anything and it would not matter, if the potting mix was right.

[akamu]

  On 4/4/2020 at 10:51 PM, gtsteve said:

Farmer, if you are a bit ocd, I may be a bit too relaxed, because I would throw away the meter and use my finger.

I reckon that if you stick your finger in the pots, a few inches should be enough and it is damp then they should be fine. 

I would treat all of those palms the same, in a very short time you will be able to tell what is too wet or dry with your finger.

In your climate (I think) or mine it would be hard to kill any of those babies, if you did if would be from too much water, 

And that would only happen if your soil mix did not drain well enough.

My advice has never been considered 'best practice', but just what works for me here in Sydney Aus.

I think that you could water all of those plants every day or once a week and not test with anything and it would not matter, if the potting mix was right.

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I totally agree but if you want to test your moisture meter put the whole probe part in a bucket of water and see what reading you get it should be 100% if it says 9 then  figure that's what your meter says is 100%is and use that as Leverage to adjust your response. 

[Palmfarmer]

  On 4/5/2020 at 2:10 AM, akamu said:

I totally agree but if you want to test your moisture meter put the whole probe part in a bucket of water and see what reading you get it should be 100% if it says 9 then  figure that's what your meter says is 100%is and use that as Leverage to adjust your response. 

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Thanks for some calming advise. The potted ones i feel pretty confident with.

IT is the plants in my garden i am thinking about. Some Are in good draining soil and some Are in clay with slower drain. My biggest palm is a Robustas 60 cm trunk and i give it 20 liters once per week in medium-slow draining soil. So from smallest to biggest i have palms with 20 cm trunk up to the biggest 60 cm Robusta. Some of them i water 5 liters per week and others 10 liters depending om size and soil. Overwatering? Underwatering?

[Tyrone]

In ground palms are much more forgiving to watering issues than potted plants. 

If too dry an established plant in the ground has the ability and will try to follow the water down further in the soil profile either by growing new roots down, or if it already has roots further down it will just suck water from those lower roots. Depending on the situation, the symptoms may be that the plant doesn't show any symptoms and is OK with it, or the growth rate may slow down or even stop. If it gets beyond that the plant will shut it's leaves down and possibly wilt. If the water situation isn't remedied it may shed leaves in an effort to conserve water further and further into the plant, until the point it can't carry on anymore and dies. In a palm generally the older leaves and the leaf tips will shrivel up and eventually die. It will keep going until only a spear survives. If it can't keep the spear alive it's basically gone.

If it's too wet an established plant will show similar leaf tip shrivel or blackening. This is due to the root tips dying from lack of oxygen. In my experience I've never come to that point with my planted in ground palms. I'm on a mixture of clay and peat with organic matter added. I water around 2-3 times a week during the warmer part of the year for half an hour with an outlet on each palm that fills up a trough that I build up when I plant them. In my experience watering more speeds up growth. 

The reason that its harder to over water a planted palm versus a potted palm is that essentially drainage surface area is huge on a planted palm whereas drainage in a pot even with free draining potting mix is only through the drain holes. Add a bit of potting mix breakdown and drainage becomes a big issue with potted plants.

To put it another way, a soil media that is way too gluey and gooey for a potting mix may be just right for a palm in the ground.

[Palmfarmer]

  On 4/6/2020 at 12:44 AM, Tyrone said:

In ground palms are much more forgiving to watering issues than potted plants. 

If too dry an established plant in the ground has the ability and will try to follow the water down further in the soil profile either by growing new roots down, or if it already has roots further down it will just suck water from those lower roots. Depending on the situation, the symptoms may be that the plant doesn't show any symptoms and is OK with it, or the growth rate may slow down or even stop. If it gets beyond that the plant will shut it's leaves down and possibly wilt. If the water situation isn't remedied it may shed leaves in an effort to conserve water further and further into the plant, until the point it can't carry on anymore and dies. In a palm generally the older leaves and the leaf tips will shrivel up and eventually die. It will keep going until only a spear survives. If it can't keep the spear alive it's basically gone.

If it's too wet an established plant will show similar leaf tip shrivel or blackening. This is due to the root tips dying from lack of oxygen. In my experience I've never come to that point with my planted in ground palms. I'm on a mixture of clay and peat with organic matter added. I water around 2-3 times a week during the warmer part of the year for half an hour with an outlet on each palm that fills up a trough that I build up when I plant them. In my experience watering more speeds up growth. 

The reason that its harder to over water a planted palm versus a potted palm is that essentially drainage surface area is huge on a planted palm whereas drainage in a pot even with free draining potting mix is only through the drain holes. Add a bit of potting mix breakdown and drainage becomes a big issue with potted plants.

To put it another way, a soil media that is way too gluey and gooey for a potting mix may be just right for a palm in the ground.

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thank you, well the biggest robusta does grow slow leaf wise compared to the other small robustas. trying not to get some kind of rot either.  it has been in the grown around 8 months, it has only put out 3 leafs since then. compared that to a filifera half the size i have that has put out probably 6-8 leafs in the same timeframe. back then when colder i gave the 60cm of trunk robusta 10 liters per week. now i stepped up to 20 and i am unsure if it is the temprature or increased water that has made it grow faster. from the figueres does things sound afully off or what you think?  tempratures are 30c daily here at the moment with around 5-15c at night. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Palmfarmer

[Tyrone]

Palmfarmer, your watering amount sounds fine to me. Your temperatures are great for growth of Washingtonias.

Washingtonias tend to put lots of roots out, because they go looking for their water. That's why they are so drought tolerant. They do love water though. So a palm like that grown in a pot then planted out as opposed to a seed planted in the ground will take a while to get its roots in. So it may tend to almost stall when first planted out as all its growth is happening underground. It will slowly pick up speed once its root mass approaches the right amount for the amount of leaves it can support. Bismarckia do this as well. The first year will be slow, they will speed up in the second year, and by the third year if everything else is good, they will explode with growth.

[Palmfarmer]

  On 4/6/2020 at 4:10 AM, Tyrone said:

Palmfarmer, your watering amount sounds fine to me. Your temperatures are great for growth of Washingtonias.

Washingtonias tend to put lots of roots out, because they go looking for their water. That's why they are so drought tolerant. They do love water though. So a palm like that grown in a pot then planted out as opposed to a seed planted in the ground will take a while to get its roots in. So it may tend to almost stall when first planted out as all its growth is happening underground. It will slowly pick up speed once its root mass approaches the right amount for the amount of leaves it can support. Bismarckia do this as well. The first year will be slow, they will speed up in the second year, and by the third year if everything else is good, they will explode with growth.

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that is great to hear, so you think i am far from root rot territory? think i should up the watering slightly to see what happens with the big one? i have noticed the smaller wasingtonias has really been going faster lately with the warm wheater. yes i heard the same my filifera however starting growing like crazy out of the gate.  

[sonoranfans]

these things are toys, they dont give absolute measurements of water content and the reading will depend on the soil.  But they can tell you a relative difference, more or less.  I would first make sure you are applying water slowly, a trickle over 3 hrs.  Then, I would look at the depth difference in the reading at the 3rd hour. after turning the hose off and letting it sit for 15 minutes.  The surface(at 3" deep) should not be notably more moist than the depth at 1'.  If the depth is less moist(20% less?) thn the surface at 3" water longer.  After you have watered evenly to the depth you can measure surface vs depth for a day or two and water again when the depth dries to 10-20% of the highest depth reading.  

[DoomsDave]

@PalmfarmerBuenas dias mi compadre!

You ask a generally simple but sometimes subtle and complex question, at least in some ways.

So, I'll give you my take, and, anyone else who knows (or thinks they know) better can chime on in. Life is one long teaching moment. I have lots of potted palms outside at my place, and I've learned a thing or two over 35 years of California living.

First, don't worry about that meter thingie. Put it in a drawer or give it to someone who really thinks they need it. You don't.

As an initial note, all the plants you listed are tough [expletives] with the Dypsis being "wimpiest."  The others are just this side of iron-clad and forgiving of mistakes. Perfect "learner" plants!

 

OUTDOORS

I'm assuming you're growing your plants outdoors. If so, particularly in a place like Mexico, I'd follow what I call the Generous Spirited Barkeep Theory: If in doubt, give 'em a drink! Give 'em more, not less, and, if really doubtful, one for the road. (Love that kind of bartender!) Same as in California. My water bill rises a lot in the summer from watering all my potted palms.

When you give your plants a nice big drink, pick up the pot, or nudge it with your hand or foot, and note how heavy it is. Over the next few days, keep nudging and note the gradual decline in weight as the plant takes water from the soil.

Also, touch the sides of the pot with your hand. Note how cool it is. When nudging, note the temperature.

DON'T wait for the pot to get really light or really warm. The plants you listed are mostly just this side of iron-clad, but others not so much. Overwatering is not a big problem outside.

That's the general rule for tough palms. For some things like Archontophoenix tuckeri (i think I sent you some) they're thirsty and fragile and need lots of water. Other times you need to watch the watering for palms like Roystoneas in the winter to keep them from rotting in the cool winter.

Here's a time frame I use: if it's warm, 70-80 F, water about every three or four days. Between 80 and 90F every other day. Above 90F, every day.

If you're not sure, give them a drink. As plants grow and fill up pots, they need more water anyway.

I see that you're up in the mountains above 6,000 feet. That usually means cooler temperatures. But, if it gets windy, plants dry out, and give them a drink.

 

INDOORS

If your plants are all inside, modify the above regimen and let the plants dry out a bit more. But not too much. I wouldn't worry too much about overwatering, unless the soil gets so soggy you get those funky little fungus flies.

And, maybe post some pictures of your babies, so we can all coo and ooh and ah over them?

Hope this helps!

And if you have any further questions, please ask!

We are here to help.

Hope you're well and safe in Mexico Lindo.

 

[Palmfarmer]

@DoomsDave Thank you very helpful as allways Dave and thank you for the seed. i am sprouting some currently and will post on here once somethings happen. 

I see you mention pots a lot up there. I assume this advice is for plants in ground as well? Because the ones i listed are in the ground.

I will sure give one of them an extra drink today   

[DoomsDave]

  On 4/6/2020 at 5:23 PM, Palmfarmer said:

@DoomsDave Thank you very helpful as allways Dave and thank you for the seed. i am sprouting some currently and will post on here once somethings happen. 

I see you mention pots a lot up there. I assume this advice is for plants in ground as well? Because the ones i listed are in the ground.

I will sure give one of them an extra drink today   

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AH!

Very different! And perfect to illustrate!

Plants in the ground, generally need a lot less water than ones in pots. Oh yeah. In the summer I water my thirstiest plants once a week in the hottest weather. In winter, maybe once a month for tough things like you have, and twice a month for thirstier things, assuming it doesn't rain at least an inch.

If in doubt, give 'em a drink!

(URK! Don't mind if I do! Thanksh', Mishter' bartender . . . . )

There's a big exception for fast-draining soil. Some of our members like @MattyB have that, and that's a different ball game. I have clay and it holds water well. If you do, too, so much the better.

And down the rabbit hole we go . . . . .