Landscape Design

[Big Eye]

Aloha everyone! As someone new to the plant/palm growing community along with trying to keep them alive long enough before I can put them in the ground.  I have one question that I'd like to ask. How do you guys know what/where you want to plant in your yard/garden? Did you design on paper and then plant? Set the plant down in the yard and move it around until you found the perfect spot for it? As of right now, loulu (Pritchardia) will be the only palms that will be going in the ground (I know, I know. How boring), along with masses of other native Hawaiian species. The theme: Hawaii of Old. I want to try, to the best of my ability, and recreate how Hawaii used to look before we got here.

After lurking around here for some time, you can definitely see the different personalities and charm in each and every yard. It's awesome! So please, share how you went about creating your garden with a newcomer! Tips? Do's and don'ts? 

Mahalo in advance!

Keenan

[Jeff985]

It sounds like climate won’t need to be a consideration. Things to consider are water needs and sun/shade tolerance. You don’t want to plant a shade loving plant in full sun and you also don’t want to plant something that prefers to be dry next to something that requires a lot of water. Since you’re only planting one type of palm, that also won’t be an issue. It sounds like the only thing you need to consider is eventual size. Make sure they have enough room to grow. Also consider planting them in groups of various sizes. It will give it a more natural look. I also like to put things in strategic locations to create privacy. Other than that just put them wherever you like. Consider spots they can be seen from inside also. 

[kinzyjr]

@Big Eye In my case, my first landscape plan was done on graph paper.  When actually planting things, I generally spot them on paper first and then go outside to ensure clearance for their crown, etc. before I start digging.  I've since recreated my "map" in Excel and included the locations of my irrigation lines and sprinkler heads.

A Few Tips:

1. Plan with the end in mind, but be prepared to adjust the plan if something changes or proves infeasible. 
   1. Example: My plan changed after my cement patio and pool were removed.  Other more minor changes include before I knew where the lines were for irrigation.  I'd dig seemingly out in the middle of the yard and reach a PVC pipe a foot down.
2. If you have grouped plantings, buy/grow at least one extra plant.  You'd be surprised how often one of the "middle" plants will die and ruin your arrangement.
   1. Example: One of my Jamaican Talls died in a grouped planting.
3. Split your master plan into smaller steps. 
   1. Example: In my case, my plan was/is similar to other plans to be able to mow everything with a weed eater.  At the same time, mulching the entire yard would cost an inordinate amount of money and there are some areas I do want to keep as walkways, etc.  So I split the yard up into planting beds and plant and finish one bed or one portion of a bed at a time.

If you want to see some of the progress over the years here: Palms and Others of Interest

[Big Eye]

  On 1/31/2020 at 1:03 AM, Jeff985 said:

It sounds like climate won’t need to be a consideration. Things to consider are water needs and sun/shade tolerance. You don’t want to plant a shade loving plant in full sun and you also don’t want to plant something that prefers to be dry next to something that requires a lot of water. Since you’re only planting one type of palm, that also won’t be an issue. It sounds like the only thing you need to consider is eventual size. Make sure they have enough room to grow. Also consider planting them in groups of various sizes. It will give it a more natural look. I also like to put things in strategic locations to create privacy. Other than that just put them wherever you like. Consider spots they can be seen from inside also. 

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@Jeff985 That was a question I thought of after posting. Groves of the many types(?) of Pritchardia! I also like the idea of planting them out at different sizes to give it that natural look. Thanks for your input. It is greatly appreciated!

[Big Eye]

  On 1/31/2020 at 1:10 AM, kinzyjr said:

@Big Eye In my case, my first landscape plan was done on graph paper.  When actually planting things, I generally spot them on paper first and then go outside to ensure clearance for their crown, etc. before I start digging.  I've since recreated my "map" in Excel and included the locations of my irrigation lines and sprinkler heads.

A Few Tips:

1. Plan with the end in mind, but be prepared to adjust the plan if something changes or proves infeasible. 
   1. Example: My plan changed after my cement patio and pool were removed.  Other more minor changes include before I knew where the lines were for irrigation.  I'd dig seemingly out in the middle of the yard and reach a PVC pipe a foot down.
2. If you have grouped plantings, buy/grow at least one extra plant.  You'd be surprised how often one of the "middle" plants will die and ruin your arrangement.
   1. Example: One of my Jamaican Talls died in a grouped planting.
3. Split your master plan into smaller steps. 
   1. Example: In my case, my plan was/is similar to other plans to be able to mow everything with a weed eater.  At the same time, mulching the entire yard would cost an inordinate amount of money and there are some areas I do want to keep as walkways, etc.  So I split the yard up into planting beds and plant and finish one bed or one portion of a bed at a time.

If you want to see some of the progress over the years here: Palms and Others of Interest

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@kinzyjr Great tips! I like #3. Was thinking about mound planting and making numerous beds with different types of plants in each. With those many beds, pathways would be created! Natural is what I envision in my head. Thanks for your input! I will check out the link!

[Big Eye]

Actually, is mound planting of palms a good idea??? Guess I have more research to do!

[Jeff985]

  On 1/31/2020 at 2:12 AM, Big Eye said:

Actually, is mound planting of palms a good idea??? Guess I have more research to do!

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It’s actually pretty common. Most palms are fine with. Palms that tend to be less sturdy, like queens will be even less sturdy when mound planted, but most palms do fine. In my area the clay soil drainage is terrible, so palms that prefer drier roots are commonly mound planted. 

[JLM]

  On 1/31/2020 at 2:20 AM, Jeff985 said:

It’s actually pretty common. Most palms are fine with. Palms that tend to be less sturdy, like queens will be even less sturdy when mound planted, but most palms do fine. In my area the clay soil drainage is terrible, so palms that prefer drier roots are commonly mound planted. 

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There are 5 queens in my neighborhood, all planted in 2019. I own 2 and someone else owns 3 just down the street. They planted them in a group spaced out. For me, i have one in the front yard and one in the backyard, i heard that if they are planted alone they are able to find more nutrients and grow more sturdy and have a large trunk width wise.  Mind you all the queens in my neighborhood are less than 12 feet tall, so very young. I have the youngest, with a height of about 4-5 feet.

[mike in kurtistown]

A couple of questions might need to be posed in planting different kinds of Pritchardias. Unfortunately, I am just beginning to ask some of the questions, and don't know the answers for certain. 

1) Perhaps not all Pritchardias are sun lovers when small. Some might naturally grow in forest environments until reaching canopy size.

2. Pritchardias may need lots of fertilizer. Just because they are Hawaiian palms doesn't mean that the soil in your yard is perfect for them. I have had many problems with boron deficiency with Pritchardias. That may be because my land was part of a sugar plantation for a century, and many of the nutrients may have been captured by the sugar cane. Soil type varies a lot over small distances. Palms don't seem to like my o'hia forest areas too well. I suspect that the o'hias may also leach nutrients from the soil.

I am not a soil scientist by any means, but experience has suggested that I be careful about certain things.

 

[Big Eye]

  On 1/31/2020 at 5:39 AM, mike in kurtistown said:

A couple of questions might need to be posed in planting different kinds of Pritchardias. Unfortunately, I am just beginning to ask some of the questions, and don't know the answers for certain. 

1) Perhaps not all Pritchardias are sun lovers when small. Some might naturally grow in forest environments until reaching canopy size.

2. Pritchardias may need lots of fertilizer. Just because they are Hawaiian palms doesn't mean that the soil in your yard is perfect for them. I have had many problems with boron deficiency with Pritchardias. That may be because my land was part of a sugar plantation for a century, and many of the nutrients may have been captured by the sugar cane. Soil type varies a lot over small distances. Palms don't seem to like my o'hia forest areas too well. I suspect that the o'hias may also leach nutrients from the soil.

I am not a soil scientist by any means, but experience has suggested that I be careful about certain things.

 

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@mike in kurtistown Mahalo for your detailed insight about loulu, Mike! Thank you for reminding me that not all loulu live in the same environment. The ones that I do have, are higher elevation species, I'm almost sure. Then again, I do not know what constitutes as "higher". That was one of my biggest worries. Planting them out from 5-7 gallon sizes with nothing to protect them from the sun. Especially them being from the forest environment. As for soil, where the planting will take place, there was a TON of blue rock and soil. The drainage is excellent from what I've seen when doing a percolation test for the septic system, so I'm hoping that there won't be a problem there. Unfortunately, there were no o'hia on the property. I will be planting them for sure though. Would mulching be a good amendment in case my soils are less than satisfactory or would I still need to throw down Nutricote? Thanks again for you response!

[mike in kurtistown]

I don't have sufficient experience with mulching to answer your question. I also use Nutricote also because our heavy rains would leach out other fertilizers before they could do much good.  Good luck with your Pritchardia collection!

[Jubaea_James760]

I like to lay out some empty pots and do my measurements based on the overall size when mature. I do alot of visualization & spend alot of time just thinking & looking at my design I lay out. Did some work today, fun times 

 

[Jubaea_James760]

[KentiaPalm]

Do a rough goose egg sketch with a to scale drawing of your land and existing structures/plants.

choose plants for their certain heights/widths/colour/texture.

make sure they compliment your home accommodate there sizes when planting 

choose a style (chaotic or order) 

make it have a feeling , tropical Mediterranean , arid , etc 

create a room with borders , create rooms with more borders/live hedges/fencing.

[PhilippineExpat]

My wife and I are new gardeners and live in a similar climate. Below are pics of our small front yard garden with driveway after 4 months (before it was just a blank dirt patch). Our main considerations were our view of the garden from inside the house and from our small shaded seating area (not pictured). For example, we planted some manila palms today and planted them in locations where we can see all of them from our sun room. We also take into account plants' sun and water needs. 

As for designing your garden, here are some tips we have learned the hard way (we are going for a natural, lush jungle aesthetic):

- Don't design the garden beds. Instead, design the path walks. The path walks will create the beds themselves. This approach produced beds with interesting shapes that we never would've come up with.

- Make sure your plants aren't too out of reach so you can water them evenly on all sides. Oftentimes we need to bend over the beds and sometimes I even need to step onto the bed to access a plant to water it. 

- Plant native plants that like to be there so they're minimal fuss and can handle the climate (fits with your Hawaii of Old theme,  so I guess you're already doing this). We live in the Philippines with a dry season, rainy season, and typhoons. We're in the middle of dry season right now so we've learned how important drought tolerant plants are. We have 2 young giant ferns and they wilt quite a bit if they are not watered daily. There are water shortages every year, so there is no guarantee we can ever water our plants. For you garden, crotons and ti plants should handle droughts and typhoons very well and fit your theme. 

- A classic piece of advice is to plant in layers. Plant your tall plants (like palms) in the middle of the bed, then medium sized plants (like a philodendron selloum or ti plant), then a small plant (like a boat lily or coleus) on the edge of the garden bed.

- I read that tropical plants like to be densely planted so they can share humidity, so I suggest going for the lush look. 

- If you get a lot of rain, make sure you have drainage. We did loose rocks for our path walk so the rain can still penetrate the ground. We chose a ribbon driveway for the same reason.

- Find out what your local pests are and find a plant to attract their predators. We have issues with mealy bugs and we learned dill flowers attract predators that eat them, so we planted dill.

Edited February 22, 2020 by PhilippineExpat

[Big Eye]

  On 1/31/2020 at 8:17 PM, mike in kurtistown said:

I don't have sufficient experience with mulching to answer your question. I also use Nutricote also because our heavy rains would leach out other fertilizers before they could do much good.  Good luck with your Pritchardia collection!

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@mike in kurtistown Ok, thanks!  Looks like I'll stick with the Nutricote as well.  Mahalo again for always replying, Mike!

[Big Eye]

  On 2/22/2020 at 4:48 AM, James760 said:

I like to lay out some empty pots and do my measurements based on the overall size when mature. I do alot of visualization & spend alot of time just thinking & looking at my design I lay out. Did some work today, fun times 

 

Expand  

@James760 Yes, that's what I've heard many people do!  Stick pots, sometimes with the specimen inside and leave it there for a few weeks+ and see how they like the layout.  If you don't like it the location, simply move it somewhere else.  I will be doing that for sure!  Thanks for your input!

[Big Eye]

  On 2/22/2020 at 11:06 AM, PhilippineExpat said:

My wife and I are new gardeners and live in a similar climate. Below are pics of our small front yard garden with driveway after 4 months (before it was just a blank dirt patch). Our main considerations were our view of the garden from inside the house and from our small shaded seating area (not pictured). For example, we planted some manila palms today and planted them in locations where we can see all of them from our sun room. We also take into account plants' sun and water needs. 

As for designing your garden, here are some tips we have learned the hard way (we are going for a natural, lush jungle aesthetic):

- Don't design the garden beds. Instead, design the path walks. The path walks will create the beds themselves. This approach produced beds with interesting shapes that we never would've come up with.

- Make sure your plants aren't too out of reach so you can water them evenly on all sides. Oftentimes we need to bend over the beds and sometimes I even need to step onto the bed to access a plant to water it. 

- Plant native plants that like to be there so they're minimal fuss and can handle the climate (fits with your Hawaii of Old theme,  so I guess you're already doing this). We live in the Philippines with a dry season, rainy season, and typhoons. We're in the middle of dry season right now so we've learned how important drought tolerant plants are. We have 2 young giant ferns and they wilt quite a bit if they are not watered daily. There are water shortages every year, so there is no guarantee we can ever water our plants. For you garden, crotons and ti plants should handle droughts and typhoons very well and fit your theme. 

- A classic piece of advice is to plant in layers. Plant your tall plants (like palms) in the middle of the bed, then medium sized plants (like a philodendron selloum or ti plant), then a small plant (like a boat lily or coleus) on the edge of the garden bed.

- I read that tropical plants like to be densely planted so they can share humidity, so I suggest going for the lush look. 

- If you get a lot of rain, make sure you have drainage. We did loose rocks for our path walk so the rain can still penetrate the ground. We chose a ribbon driveway for the same reason.

- Find out what your local pests are and find a plant to attract their predators. We have issues with mealy bugs and we learned dill flowers attract predators that eat them, so we planted dill.

Expand  

@PhilippineExpat Those are GREAT tips that I definitely would have never thought of!  Especially tip #1! I too, will be going for that natural look.  Or try to as much as possible.  You don't know how much I've looked at beds  around town trying to design a natural looking one for my property.  Your tip on creating paths instead sounds way easier!  Also, never though of planting in "layers".  Now everything is starting to sink in by seeing everyone else's gardens and their layouts.  Thanks for chiming in!  I'm really liking your design! 

[Big Eye]

  On 2/22/2020 at 5:20 AM, KentiaPalm said:

Do a rough goose egg sketch with a to scale drawing of your land and existing structures/plants.

choose plants for their certain heights/widths/colour/texture.

make sure they compliment your home accommodate there sizes when planting 

choose a style (chaotic or order) 

make it have a feeling , tropical Mediterranean , arid , etc 

create a room with borders , create rooms with more borders/live hedges/fencing.

Expand  

@KentiaPalm Sorry, missed your reply.  Thanks for your insight!  As of right now, it's a blank canvas waiting to be painted!  All plants will be native Hawaiian species so the Pritchardia will definitely be the focal point, I think/hope!  I was thinking of having a sub-theme of "mauka to makai" (mountain to ocean) style of planting where higher elevation plants will all be together and the same for the lower elevation plants.  I'm hoping the lower elevation plants can thrive being that I'm at about 1,100-1,200 ft. elevation. 

[PhilippineExpat]

  On 2/25/2020 at 10:49 PM, Big Eye said:

@PhilippineExpat Those are GREAT tips that I definitely would have never thought of!  Especially tip #1! I too, will be going for that natural look.  Or try to as much as possible.  You don't know how much I've looked at beds  around town trying to design a natural looking one for my property.  Your tip on creating paths instead sounds way easier!  Also, never though of planting in "layers".  Now everything is starting to sink in by seeing everyone else's gardens and their layouts.  Thanks for chiming in!  I'm really liking your design! 

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I'm glad I could help  Here is a top-down view of our garden so you can see our pathwalks and garden bed shapes:

:

 

[Kim]

Are you new to Hawaii Island? If so, go see a lot of gardens before you do anything. You will be inspired; your vision will grow and take shape, informed by the gardens you see. If you are not already a member of Hawaii Island Palm Society, join:  https://www.hawaiiislandpalmsociety.com  It's the best bang for your buck for palm education on the island. Are you on the east side or west? 

Right now your vision is "Old Hawaii" -- allow room for that vision to morph, in case you get sidetracked. Or in case you visit Floribunda Palms, haha. How old is Old Hawaii? Pre-european? Sugar cane plantation period? Late 20th century? Some versions of old Hawaii would have many more edibles in the garden than palms. Some versions would have grass, coconuts, and a few flowering plants. Clearly define for yourself what belongs in your vision and what does not. 

Similar to what KentiaPalm said, my acreage is broken up into "rooms" with connecting paths -- wide paths, so two people can walk together. My lot was rough jungle, so creation of safe pathways was essential to avoid lava tree holes and sudden elevation changes. They are simple cinder, but provide solid footing and are meant to complement the garden. It took several years for the whole garden to take shape, as new sections were carved out according to a general master plan that made use of the natural contours of the plot. I had a sketch of the lot with the house, catchment, and drive in place, then filled out how paths and planting areas might use the space. Density alternates with more open spaces so it will eventually feel like one is exploring a much larger garden. Paths leading to focal points, that kind of sensation.

Good luck with your garden! You are going to have a lot of fun.

[Big Eye]

  On 2/26/2020 at 1:47 AM, PhilippineExpat said:

I'm glad I could help  Here is a top-down view of our garden so you can see our pathwalks and garden bed shapes:

:

 

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@PhilippineExpat You picture is not showing up on my end?  Again, thanks for sharing your experiences and tips with a newbie!

[Big Eye]

  On 2/26/2020 at 2:19 AM, Kim said:

Are you new to Hawaii Island? If so, go see a lot of gardens before you do anything. You will be inspired; your vision will grow and take shape, informed by the gardens you see. If you are not already a member of Hawaii Island Palm Society, join:  https://www.hawaiiislandpalmsociety.com  It's the best bang for your buck for palm education on the island. Are you on the east side or west? 

Right now your vision is "Old Hawaii" -- allow room for that vision to morph, in case you get sidetracked. Or in case you visit Floribunda Palms, haha. How old is Old Hawaii? Pre-european? Sugar cane plantation period? Late 20th century? Some versions of old Hawaii would have many more edibles in the garden than palms. Some versions would have grass, coconuts, and a few flowering plants. Clearly define for yourself what belongs in your vision and what does not. 

Similar to what KentiaPalm said, my acreage is broken up into "rooms" with connecting paths -- wide paths, so two people can walk together. My lot was rough jungle, so creation of safe pathways was essential to avoid lava tree holes and sudden elevation changes. They are simple cinder, but provide solid footing and are meant to complement the garden. It took several years for the whole garden to take shape, as new sections were carved out according to a general master plan that made use of the natural contours of the plot. I had a sketch of the lot with the house, catchment, and drive in place, then filled out how paths and planting areas might use the space. Density alternates with more open spaces so it will eventually feel like one is exploring a much larger garden. Paths leading to focal points, that kind of sensation.

Good luck with your garden! You are going to have a lot of fun.

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@KimThank you for chiming in!  I was born and raised in upper Hilo. My wife and I moved out to HPP in 2010 and lived there for 9 years.  We bought property in 2018 back to my "stomping grounds" and just sold our HPP home in December, 2019.  Once we purchased our lot is when the plant bug took a bite and held on.  Or maybe a year before that.  I can't recall already.  Lol.  I've been to some botanical gardens since then but not as much as I'd like to.

For what I have planned in my head, "Old Hawaii" meaning only endemic Hawaiian plants that are found nowhere else in the world.  So as of right now, there will be no indigenous or canoe plants, YET!  I know my plan is in it's early stages so I'm sure that there will be changes once the house is built and we are living on-site.  I'm basically getting my hands on as much material as I can in the meantime and let me tell you, I absolutely LOVE it!  Tracking down different people that have a certain plant that you want is awesome!  I've been to Jeff's a handful of times picking up as many different species of loulu as I can.  As you already know, they are the only native Hawaiian palms we have!

"Density alternates with more open spaces so it will eventually feel like one is exploring a much larger garden. Paths leading to focal points, that kind of sensation."  I really like the sound of that!  I do have a layout of the lot and house footprint where I "dropped" some plants down on the drawing, but I will admit, it is much harder than to actually be there and see what it will actually look like!

[Stevetoad]

Place plants and rocks so that they look like they weren't planted but just happened to grow there. Stay away from symmetry and straight lines as these usually dont happen in nature. Or dont. Its your garden. Have fun with it. Know you'll make mistakes but later on these are welcome because they make room for new ideas and plants. 

[Big Eye]

  On 2/26/2020 at 10:01 PM, Stevetoad said:

Place plants and rocks so that they look like they weren't planted but just happened to grow there. Stay away from symmetry and straight lines as these usually dont happen in nature. Or dont. Its your garden. Have fun with it. Know you'll make mistakes but later on these are welcome because they make room for new ideas and plants. 

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@Stevetoad My thoughts exactly!  By nature, I'm a perfectionist.  Everything must be straight and line up.  For some reason, with getting ideas for this garden, it never crossed my mind to plant them in perfect rows, but rather have them look like they grew there naturally, like you stated above.  I think the one thing that makes me hesitant in planting in-ground is that, though you can always dig them out and move them elsewhere, I'd rather not disturb those roots and they suddenly die on me.  I guess it's as you said above as well.  I will make mistakes.  I hope that it's not too many!  Thanks again for always commenting!

[John hovancsek]

  On 2/25/2020 at 11:00 PM, Big Eye said:

@KentiaPalm Sorry, missed your reply.  Thanks for your insight!  As of right now, it's a blank canvas waiting to be painted!  All plants will be native Hawaiian species so the Pritchardia will definitely be the focal point, I think/hope!  I was thinking of having a sub-theme of "mauka to makai" (mountain to ocean) style of planting where higher elevation plants will all be together and the same for the lower elevation plants.  I'm hoping the lower elevation plants can thrive being that I'm at about 1,100-1,200 ft. elevation. 

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I am in eden rock in mountain view  where I an about 1,500 elevation.  I do have some problems with some palms but you would be surprised I grow a lot of stuff. Watch out for ohia trees there roots can strangle young palms

[Big Eye]

  On 2/27/2020 at 2:00 AM, John hovancsek said:

I am in eden rock in mountain view  where I an about 1,500 elevation.  I do have some problems with some palms but you would be surprised I grow a lot of stuff. Watch out for ohia trees there roots can strangle young palms

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@John hovancsek  Awesome!  I would have never guessed Eden Rock to be around 1,500 ft. elevation.  Thanks for the heads up about o'hia roots.  Had no idea they were that aggressive!  I do plan on putting some in the ground at some point or another since my property had none.

[DoomsDave]

@Big Eye welcome!

The palms along my dopey driveway welcome you too!

[realarch]

Keenan, if your have time, come on up and check out Hilo Jason’s and my garden. We live within 5 minutes from each other, and hopefully, will give you a better idea how others approach palm gardening on the Hilo side of the island.

Tim

[Big Eye]

  On 2/27/2020 at 2:28 AM, DoomsDave said:

@Big Eye welcome!

The palms along my dopey driveway welcome you too!

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Thanks for the welcome @DoomsDave!  Love your lined driveway!  Planning on doing that myself as well!  I imagine it won't look anything like yours though!

[Big Eye]

  On 2/27/2020 at 6:38 PM, realarch said:

Keenan, if your have time, come on up and check out Hilo Jason’s and my garden. We live within 5 minutes from each other, and hopefully, will give you a better idea how others approach palm gardening on the Hilo side of the island.

Tim

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Thanks @realarch!  I plan on meeting up with Jason sometime next week, hopefully.  I will admit, besides loulu and a couple other palms, I have no idea what I will be looking at!  Let me know when you are free to give this guy a tour of one of Hilo's finest!

[DoomsDave]

  On 3/5/2020 at 12:28 AM, Big Eye said:

Thanks for the welcome @DoomsDave!  Love your lined driveway!  Planning on doing that myself as well!  I imagine it won't look anything like yours though!

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Bet you’ll make my poor place look like the frozen tundra or the Sahara desert by comparison!

[Big Eye]

  On 3/5/2020 at 12:38 AM, DoomsDave said:

Bet you’ll make my poor place look like the frozen tundra or the Sahara desert by comparison!

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@DoomsDaveI just want my plants to thrive! I'm sure living here will help these "black thumbs"  Also, Dave, I was trying to search for a pic you posted a while back of a loulu showing really nice trunk rings(?) I forget what species it was and if you noted that it was spaced that way because of it growing in shade and/or full sun? Do you happen to still have that photo? Thanks in advance!