What is this Sabal?

[Dimovi]

These two massive Sabals I thought were Mexicana, but the fruit looks different, more hollow with almost no mesocarp.

Are they Mexicana or maybe something else?

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

Maybe Causiarum or Maritima just a guess im still learning all the different Sabal characteristics 

[Stevetoad]

I have a hard time with Sabal IDs. I can say that it’s not causiarum though. It would be bigger and have big liguels. Here my causiarum for comparison. 

[PalmatierMeg]

Way too small for causiarum (and no ligules), maybe too small for domingensis. Trunk looks a bit thin for maritima. I've never met a live mexicana so can't help much there. Are you basing possible ID just on the basis of fruit size/shape?

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

@Stevetoad Your prolly right your Causiarum is much larger in comparison. You definitely have a specimen there and my fav sabal  

[Steve in Florida]

Are the seeds 8.5-13.3 mm wide?

[Dimovi]

19 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Way too small for causiarum (and no ligules), maybe too small for domingensis. Trunk looks a bit thin for maritima. I've never met a live mexicana so can't help much there. Are you basing possible ID just on the basis of fruit size/shape?

I mostly see Mexicanas in Austin and these look like it, but when I tried the fruit it was nothing like what I have seen. Also, the petioles at the base are so wide that my hand doesn't even cover the bottom side. They look much more massive in real life.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Dimovi

[Dimovi]

15 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

Are the seeds 8.5-13.3 mm wide?

Yes, the smallest seeds are about 10mm the lastest around 12 - 13mm. 

[sonoranfans]

the green leafbases are either from a recent "trim" where lots of green leaves are removed or it is a species thing.  Its a big sabal but the trunk isnt that thick, about half a causiarum that size and the large fruit say its not causiarum.  Because the environment is different than native environs it could be a sabal that grows differently in that environment.  My guess is sabal sp "riverside" which itself may be a hybrid and has larger fruit and plenty of size to the crown.  "Riverside" is a big sabal the heavy petioles but the trunk isnt so thick as causiarum.

[Steve in Florida]

5 hours ago, Dimovi said:

Yes, the smallest seeds are about 10mm the lastest around 12 - 13mm. 

I thought it was Sabal mexicana.  The seed width is exactly what you quoted.   It might also be Sabal guatemalensis which some say is a variation of Sabal mexicana.  According to a friend who is growing the former, they differ in that S. guatemalensis is greener and grows much faster. 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

48 minutes ago, Steve in Florida said:

According to a friend who is growing the former, they differ in that S. guatemalensis is greener and grows much faster. 

That must be it then cause I haven't seen a Mexicana look that good , usually the crown is much more compact and never that green

[RJ]

It's a nice looking sabal. Perhaps they can collect some seed  Hint hint... 

[RJ]

14 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

That must be it then cause I haven't seen a Mexicana look that good , usually the crown is much more compact and never that green

Sabals tend to have larger crown when they're small. It seems when they put on some trunk their crowns shrink in diameter. Perhaps this is a way to reduce competition? 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

Hmmm that could be it i know @jimmyt has both specimen palmetto and mexicana for comparison. There is alot more mexicana out his way compared to all the palmetto near me. 

[Dimovi]

3 hours ago, RJ said:

Sabals tend to have larger crown when they're small. It seems when they put on some trunk their crowns shrink in diameter. Perhaps this is a way to reduce competition? 

Shade makes their fronds long. They are usually shaded only when they are small, but my in-laws have a large Mexicana over 20 years old that has very long fronds, because it gets mostly morning sun. By the way here in Texas those are called Sabal Texana  

[Dimovi]

17 hours ago, RJ said:

It's a nice looking sabal. Perhaps they can collect some seed  Hint hint... 

It is just now stating to set seed. I was able to find only about 20 or so. I will plant some. I can send a few if anyone wants to grow it. Just send me a PM. I have a lot of seeds from my in-laws Mexicana too.

[jimmyt]

Here is what OC2Texaspalmlvr is referring to.  Mexicana vs Palmetto pics.  June 2019

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Seed size is the easiest way for sabal identification in Texas.

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Seed size is the easiest way for sabal identification in Texas.

Agree, but guatemalensis, mexicana and 'riverside' are very similar in size compared to each other and much larger than palmetto and causiarum.  Perhaps there's a measurable distinction between them of +/-1 mm, but I've not measured them exactly.  The only mature Sabal guatemalensis that I have seen in person is at Mercer Arboretum in Houston (pic below) which has a thinner trunk than mexicana (closer to palmetto) and virtually the same sized seed as mexicana.  Other than the weepy fronds that the original poster's palm has I might agree with @Steve in Florida and suggest Sabal guatemalensis

 

[Marius]

Hi. Does anyone have an idea of which Sabal sp this could be?  

I find Sabal, Livistona and Brahea very difficult to ID when young. 

 

[Marius]

Then there is this one. Much younger than the previous one. It doesn’t seem to have much of a costa. 

[Marius]

Another shot 

[RJ]

So @Dimovi was kind enough to send me 10 seeds of this Palm a couple months ago. I put them on my makeshift seed germination that consist of a heat mat and a thermostat inside a large styrofoam cooler. Probably a month past and I started to see some germinating. I let them continue for another month or so. Today I pulled them out of their coco medium and potted them up into 4x10 liners. I put them back into their heated cooler until they start to sprout some juvenile leafs. 
 

Can’t  say thanks enough to Dimovi for the tips as well. These are my first sabal’s I’ve germinated 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by RJ

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

Congrats @RJ Sabal palmetto were my very first seeds germinated. I also use the same 4x10s =) quick question what do you do to keep the soil from coming out the bottom of the huge hole in the pot haha j/c 

[RJ]

2 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Congrats @RJ Sabal palmetto were my very first seeds germinated. I also use the same 4x10s =) quick question what do you do to keep the soil from coming out the bottom of the huge hole in the pot haha j/c 

Good question. I do one of two things. In large pots I fill the bottom with large bark chips about two inches thick, or in this case I cut a piece of screen about the size of a 3m postet note and insert in the bottom of the liner. 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

Screen as in screen door material ? I'm guessing not metal correct =) I saw somewhere online to use coffee filters which I what I use. Seems to work so far. I like the screen idea tho 

[RJ]

5 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Screen as in screen door material ? I'm guessing not metal correct =) I saw somewhere online to use coffee filters which I what I use. Seems to work so far. I like the screen idea tho 

Yes, I had to repair some window screens in our place so had extra lying around. This is fiberglass screen so it cuts super easy with scissors. If I had to do a ton of pots the coffee filter idea would work just as well I'm sure and be less work. 

[Dimovi]

2 hours ago, RJ said:

So @Dimovi was kind enough to send me 10 seeds of this Palm a couple months ago. I put them on my makeshift seed germination that consist of a heat mat and a thermostat inside a large styrofoam cooler. Probably a month past and I started to see some germinating. I let them continue for another month or so. Today I pulled them out of their coco medium and potted them up into 4x10 liners. I put them back into their heated cooler until they start to sprout some juvenile leafs. 
 

Can’t  say thanks enough to Dimovi for the tips as well. These are my first sabal’s I’ve germinated 

 

 

Great, it looks like almost of them germinated. I've got some of my own going as well from that same Sabal from the beginning of the thread.