Englewood Florida Experiment.

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

I am heading to Englewood next week to stay at a family friends and had an idea. Due to the fact I still live in Connecticut and can't grow anything in ground and my Potted palms grow quite slow I thought I could buy this friend a palm to plant in an unused center garden on the property. I would have them send me a picture of it every month.  am wondering what would be a good choice.  I would like something with a decent growth rate and for it to be under 30$  so something young and small.  I know what is hardy in the area but my main question is what could i plant this time of year? While the neighborhood has a decent amount of coconuts big and small I have a feeling if this winter is colder than usual it might die due to it being a fresh planting. What would you suggest ?

[kinzyjr]

I don't think you have to worry about Coconuts in Englewood, FL unless we get another 2010 or 1980s freeze event.  I'm assuming the area gets full sun.  Roystonea regia?  Dypsis leptocheilos? Wodyetia bifurcata?

[RedRabbit]

I say plant whatever you want within reason. A coconut would be a good choice since they grow fast and they’re easy to get. A carpentaria might also be a good choice, they grow faster and are a little hardier than coconuts. Veitchia would also do exceptionally well. 

Regarding Englewood’s climate, I’m not 100% sure on how warm it is. Wunderground’s numbers in southern Sarasota and Charlotte counties sometimes suggest the area is a cold spot. I’m in Venice a lot which is just to the north and it looks solidly 10a out to I-75 and boarderline 10b by the coast. I’ve also looked at a lot of historic data from the Venice airport and iirc the 1980s low was 25f which isn’t too bad all things considered. I think there are even a few pre-80s coconuts on the beach.

[Steve in Florida]

Port Charlotte and North Port a couple of miles inland are low density and zone 9b.  When you get closer to the Gulf you have the Gulf warmth influence and higher water table which makes it more difficult for night temperatures to drop.  Here's the monthly lows for the last 30 years in nearby Punta Gorda.  Englewood's annual lows are similiar, running 1-1.4F higher long term. 

[RedRabbit]

8 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

Port Charlotte and North Port a couple of miles inland are low density and zone 9b.  When you get closer to the Gulf you have the Gulf warmth influence and higher water table which makes it more difficult for night temperatures to drop.  Here's the monthly lows for the last 30 years in nearby Punta Gorda.  Englewood's annual lows are similiar, running 1-1.4F higher long term. 

That’s some good info! Do you know where that weather station is in Punta Gorda? Right along the river seems very warm based on what I’ve seen, I’d guess the mean low might be 5f warmer. 

[sonoranfans]

in florida, proximity to water is important in limiting the lows.  I am 8 miles as the crow flies E/SE from tampa bay, if I drive 4 more miles to the east, there are no royals or foxtails(two most common crownshafts) that predate  2010.  That 4 miles was good for 2+ degrees in dec 2010 cold 28F vs 26F.  Southwest saint petersburg and anna maria were warmer than sarasota in 2010 as they are more surrounded with water.  Anna maria island a mere 20 min drive was 8 degrees warmer than my place.  In the coldest events, which are mostly radiative, nearby water can be critical.  But an advective event limits the waters warming effect by blowing the heated air away and replacing it with heavier, cold air.  Since all of englewood is within 2 miles of the water it will do well in a radiative event.  Try planting what your friend likes and what will tolerate his soil, he/she would be more likely to care for it more as a small seedling.

[PalmatierMeg]

You have quite a choice of palms in Engleside. I like the idea of letting your friend decide what he'd like - it will be living on his property after all. If you want something with fast growth, try a Roystonea (gets huge) or Archonotophoenix (all except purpurea grow well and look good in FL). Veitchias can be rockets. Dypsis leptocheilos is slower to gain size. I've tried and given up on Wodyetias - they are difficult in the sandy alkaline soil we have in SWFL. But I have a Foxy Lady and an Adonidia x Veitchia cross that do well and grow fast - maybe because of the Veitchia genes. Coconuts are always a possibility though your friend might consider them just "one of the ususal suspects." Unless your friend is biased against fan palms, consider a Copernicia sp. Livistonas like decora and australis are also fast growing and bullet-proof in Engleside.

[Steve in Florida]

14 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

That’s some good info! Do you know where that weather station is in Punta Gorda? Right along the river seems very warm based on what I’ve seen, I’d guess the mean low might be 5f warmer. 

Just 2.30 miles south of the Peace River at the Punta Gorda Airport.

[RedRabbit]

3 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

Just 2.30 miles south of the Peace River at the Punta Gorda Airport.

Thanks! It’s interesting that the mean low has only been 32f there,  which is about the same as Tampa International and Orlando Executive airports. I guess the Peace River microclimate doesn’t extend very far. Along the river it looks a full zone warmer than Orlando or Tampa. 

[Steve in Florida]

1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

Thanks! It’s interesting that the mean low has only been 32f there,  which is about the same as Tampa International and Orlando Executive airports. I guess the Peace River microclimate doesn’t extend very far. Along the river it looks a full zone warmer than Orlando or Tampa. 

Tampa and Orlando are befitting from their higher population densities and relatively larger areas.  More asphalt, cement, and construction which absorbs more heat and releases it more slowly than sandy soil.  For instance, Orlando is 5.4 times larger in area than Punta Gorda.  It's population density is 50% of Orlando, while surrounding Charlotte county has only 1/10.

[ruskinPalms]

Interesting thread for me. My parents live in south venice fl which is englewood’s just barely northern neighbor. Of note, it can get pretty darn cold anywhere more than a few miles from the gulf in that area on radiational cooling nights as the cold air just sags south along the peninsula right up to the coast. And there is no urban heat island effect as mentioned in this thread previously. Overall, Bradenton is warmer (especially western Bradenton) due to the geography of the state and how cold air sinks down the peninsula. That being said, my parents house is solid 10A as it is west of us 41 in south venice not too far from the ICW.  I might have to sneak a new palm on their property in the spirit of this thread! My dad doesn’t care for landscaping in general but my mom gives hope..

[ruskinPalms]

The whole I-4 corridor is booming from Tampa/St Pete to Orlando. Lakeland is getting swallowed up along the way. Parrish where I live is still very rural but it is building up fast but there is no urban heat island effect here yet. Unfortunately, 9B temps still happen here a lot so I have to hope and pray that my palms make it most years. Inner city Orlando is warmer than here judging from watching wunderground on cold nights. Only thing I have here over orlando is maybe a degree or 2 warmer daytime temps in the winter and maybe better temps on the first night of a cold front as long as the winds are out of the NW.

sorry. Back on topic. I’m thinking a coconut should go in my parent’s yard. They are not as common as you would think in south venice anyway. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by ruskinPalms

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

So just making sure one last time it is perfectly fine to plant a coconut or veitchita or carpentaria in Englewood Florida next week? 

[RedRabbit]

4 minutes ago, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

So just making sure one last time it is perfectly fine to plant a coconut or veitchita or carpentaria in Englewood Florida next week? 

Go for it, let us know which you decide on.

[Steve in Florida]

1 hour ago, Mr.SamuraiSword said:

So just making sure one last time it is perfectly fine to plant a coconut or veitchita or carpentaria in Englewood Florida next week? 

It was 30F down there in January 2018 so an unprotected coconut palm would not be a low risk experiment.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Steve in Florida

[RedRabbit]

1 hour ago, Steve in Florida said:

It was 30F down there in January 2018 so an unprotected coconut palm would not be a low risk experiment.

If memory serves, there was basically no damage south of Tampa Bay from that freeze. I think I remember seeing maybe 5% damage near the Sarasota airport, but most other places had no damage at all. That’s in contrast to Tampa where the damage was usually between moderate and fatal. 

[PalmatierMeg]

Probably all 3 are good in the short term, risky long term. From Punta Gorda (20 miles north of me) to Englewood/Venice the numbers of coconuts drops precipitously. I can't recall ever seeing Veitchias or Carpentarias at all, likely because no one ever thinks to plant them at all. Both are rare even in Cape Coral except in the gardens of palm enthusiasts. Winter lows in Punta Gorda are noticeably lower than mine, Engleside lower still.

I say go for it anyway and keep up apprised of the results over time. I hope your friend enjoys it for years to come.