Fertilizing Newly Planted Palms

[boaterboat]

I have 5 livistonia chinensis 13’ trunk height, and 4  butia capitata 5’ trunk height palms that were planted in the ground one month ago just west of Austin, TX  

The livistonia chinensis had some leaves that died, but appear to be recovering with new green spears emerging.

The butia capitata fared pretty well, but a couple are looking a little “frizzy”. I believe they have issues where I am in central Texas (limestone) with the soil being too alkaline. Can anyone provide any advice on how to keep these guys healthy here?

I purchased some Jobes Organic palm fertilizer, but have not used it. 

 

Thanks!

Edited August 5, 2019 by boaterboat

[Chester B]

I like Palmgain better. I usually don’t fertilize new palms aside from a little seaweed for the first couple months but you’re getting pretty close to when you want to cut off fertilizer for the year. I don’t have experience with palms in Texas so I’ll let others hopefully provide more local knowledge. 

[kinzyjr]

Welcome to PalmTalk, @boaterboat!  I don't fertilize much, but I use Florikan when I do.  I'm guessing Texas locals would be able to recommend something that is formulated specifically for TX, but Palmgain is also known as some good stuff.  You'll want something that is temperature-activated so all of your nutrients don't just wash out when you get heavy rain.

[Steve in Florida]

Try Googling Carl Pool Palm Food 12-4-12.  It's manufactured in Texas.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Palmgain is excellent. It's the only commercial fertilizer I use on hundreds of palms in my garden. I'd go half strength with any fertilizer right now unless there's an obvious nutritional deficiency. Perhaps you can go full strength on the Butia palms because of the frizzled new leaves. The Jobes organic sticks should be fine. 

[boaterboat]

Thanks everyone!  I purchased the Carl Pool Palm Food along with Southern Ag Palm Nutritional Spray. I used the spray per instructions on the four Pindo Palms. The new leaves actually look pretty good upon closer examination. The lower leaves do have some brown spots. Not sure if that is normal. 

[Merlyn]

The Pindo photo is a little small to tell for sure, but older fronds dying off after a transplant is pretty normal.  I had 2 potted Pindos that had been neglected for a long time, they went dry for a week or so before I finally got them into the ground.  One did just fine after planting, the other had a bunch of browned tips on the older fronds.  A year later they both look fine, so spotting or browned tips is probably a temporary issue.  You can hurt Pindos by overwatering them, it's maybe even more risky than underwatering.  They also grow new roots very slowly, so be cautious with fertilizer after planting.

The layout looks great! 

[boaterboat]

Here a some photos of the spotting on some of the older leaves of one of the Pindo Palms. Is this normal?  I have treated with Southern Ag Palm Nutritional Spray with foliage and in ground applications. I’m a little concerned about using the Carl Pool Palm Food since they were transplanted about a month and a half ago. 

[boaterboat]

I would also appreciate any recommendations about watering amount and frequency. I know they need to dry out. How many inches and how often per week is ideal?

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

12 minutes ago, boaterboat said:

I would also appreciate any recommendations about watering amount and frequency. I know they need to dry out. How many inches and how often per week is ideal?

With so many variables from outside temp , duration of heat , soil drainage , height of palms. Really hard to put a # on it. With them being new plantings water the hell out of them. With the growing season now they will appreciate it. So im guessing your using a drip system so minimum a gallon per hr thru the hot season. Keep an eye on the frond tips and adjust accordingly. Hope this helps =) definitely not an exact science in my experience , which im still learning. 

[boaterboat]

Thank you!  It is in the high 90s to low 100s in Central Texas right now. Soil is limestone. I am using spray heads.  Right now they are getting about an inch twice per week. 

[Merlyn]

The detail photos look like a nutrient deficiency:

Potassium: Older fronds get translucent yellow/orange or dead spots on leaves, especially at the tips. Sometimes tips are curled or frizzled.  Always starts at tips of oldest leaves, moving inwards

Magnesium: Yellow linear bands on leaves but generally transitions to solid green at the base of each leaf.  Never causes leaf tip necrosis

It looks like you have yellow/orange/dead spots on the leaves and yellow stripes transitioning to solid green at the base.  A little controlled-release fertilizer would likely help, but don't overdo it!  The spotting looks similar to what happened with mine after transplant.  It took about 4 months to grow 2 new sets of leaves to where I could safely cut off the older unhealthy ones.

[boaterboat]

The Southern Ag product I used contains:

2.5% Manganese, 1.5% Magnesium, and 1.0% Iron.

Hopefully that will help. I also ordered some potassium spikes. 

Is the Carl Pool product safe to use on newly transplanted palms?

I appreciate all of the advice!

[Fusca]

On 8/4/2019 at 10:24 PM, boaterboat said:

I believe they have issues where I am in central Texas (limestone) with the soil being too alkaline.

This is what I understand also.  Several around San Antonio have struggled with Butias but there are still some around.  I had 4 planted in different spots in my yard and 3 are doing great.  The 4th one (juvenile 5-gal size) was in the area with the highest pH and the new growth it shot up was yellowish.  Applications of fertilizer did not help with the yellowing but it continued to grow so I dug it up and put it in a container.  Now it looks good again and can be planted in a spot with better soil - probably my neighbor's yard!

[boaterboat]

This guy is looking worse. To summarize, I have now used the Southern Ag product as a foliar pplication as well as soil drench. I also added Treehelp potassium spikes for palms. I realize these measures will take time, but I want to make sure I am going along the right path. 

Does anyone have any insight as to the leaf spots?  I am unsure if this a a bacterial issue or possibly a potassium deficiency, or something else. 

 

Thanks again!

[GottmitAlex]

4 minutes ago, boaterboat said:

This guy is looking worse. To summarize, I have now used the Southern Ag product as a foliar pplication as well as soil drench. I also added Treehelp potassium spikes for palms. I realize these measures will take time, but I want to make sure I am going along the right path. 

Does anyone have any insight as to the leaf spots?  I am unsure if this a a bacterial issue or possibly a potassium deficiency, or something else. 

 

Thanks again!

My coconuts had something like that 6 inches starting at the tips of the leaflets. 

I don't know if this would be the case for your palms. But slide your fingers along the leaflets (under and over) in question. When I did that to mine, my fingers had a rust/copper colored powder on them.

They were spider mites.

Here again, I do not know if this is your case.

Hope your issue gets resolved with haste.

 

 

[boaterboat]

Well, here is an update. All of the other palms look good, but this poor guy looks to be nearly gone. All fronds are brown & the few that were green have snapped near the crown. It seems like they cannot support their own weight. The newest spear is also pale with parts that are turning brown. I think it may have just gotten too much water after I planted it. The installers also mentioned this was the only palm with a root ball that was “loose” and smaller than the others. 
 

Is it time to replace it?

Edited October 23, 2019 by boaterboat

[Jeff985]

I would. 

[Jeff985]

I don’t know what’s wrong with it but I’d be shocked if it survived. Even if it does it will take at least a year for it to look decent again. 

[Merlyn]

Yikes!  Your August 28th picture looks a lot like what one of mine looked like a few months after transplant.  In a normal transplant it would definitely stop killing old fronds at that point.

My guess, based on your description of the root ball being "loose" is that you'll find an air pocket directly under the trunk.  That can happen if the palm has been in a pot for a long time and the roots "girdled" around the perimeter of the pot.  The palm will end up with thick roots around the outside and an area in the middle of the pot, directly under the trunk's "root initiation zone," is essentially empty.  Some people recommend cutting up or unwinding any seriously girdling roots when planting, to make sure there isn't an air pocket.  Your installers should definitely have washed dirt around the root ball and tried to wash it into the "loose" area when installing it.  That's standard practice, but not everyone knows to do it.  I sure didn't when I started, and just lucked out on some of my early plantings.  I did kill one Phoenix hybrid that felt like it had a solid root ball when I planted it, but when I pulled it out of the ground it had a perimeter of roots and an empty and dead spot right in the center.  It survived a few months but slowly browned and declined, just like yours.

Let us know what happens!

 

 

[Chester B]

Its done, time to move on.  Sorry for your loss.

[Gonzer]

20 hours ago, Jeff985 said:

I don’t know what’s wrong with it but I’d be shocked if it survived. Even if it does it will take at least a year for it to look decent again. 

Methinks not. That palm is history, but if it miraculously somehow regained vigor it would be 5+ before it looked good.

[Jeff985]

23 minutes ago, Gonzer said:

Methinks not. That palm is history, but if it miraculously somehow regained vigor it would be 5+ before it looked good.

I guess I should have emphasized the words at least and decent. By at least a year I meant probably longer and by look decent I meant not dead. 

[palmfriend]

 

On 8/5/2019 at 12:24 PM, boaterboat said:

The livistonia chinensis had some leaves that died, but appear to be recovering with new green spears emerging.

... I believe they have issues where I am in central Texas (limestone) with the soil being too alkaline. Can anyone provide any advice on how to keep these guys healthy here?

...

Our island is almost pure limestone and therefore the soil is very alkaline, too. We are one of those places where L. Chinensis is from - we have hundreds (or even thousands) of them 

all over the island in gardens and in the wild - and I would say none of those in the wild are fertilized at all but they do look well. L. Chinensis is a very robust species, fertilizing will

certainly be good but is probably not necessary. 

Just my two cents.

best regards from Okinawa

Lars

 

 

[boaterboat]

Thank you all for the advice. I will go ahead and replace the butia. 
 

Lars, glad to know the Chinensis do well in limestone!  They seem to be doing well. 

[Merlyn]

Make sure you take some pictures of the root ball while they are removing it.  Not (only) for a sense of morbid curiosity, but so we can hopefully tell why it declined so fast and died.  If it's something simple like a loose root ball and air pocket, then there's probably no issue putting another palm in it's place.  If it died from root rot from sitting in a "pool" made by the clay/limestone, then you would want to fix that before considering planting another one in the same spot.  Sometimes (depending on the reason for death) you are safe putting another in the same spot, but if it's ganoderma, fusarium, pythium or some other fungal or rot infection, planting another palm in the same spot means the new one will die too.   

[boaterboat]

It looks like another Pindo is going down the same path. I haven’t taken either out at this point. 
 

I also tried to lightly reposition a mule palm and it broke off at the base. It seems very moist. I haven’t watered over a month, but it has been fairly cool and rainy. There is also a white substance you can see in the photos.
 

It may be important to note these Palm are not in the same part of the yard. 
 

I would appreciate advice. 

[Merlyn]

I had a similar death with a bunch of Ensete Maurelii (red false banana) and a couple of clusters of orange Bird of Paradise.  I attributed it to "crown rot" from phytophthora.  My treatment was a soil drench of Banrot, but that's only what I had on hand.  I think the other ones used on Phytophthora are Aliette (fosetyl-aluminum) and Captan.  I think Captan is not systemic though, but I don't have a lot of experience with crown rot.  Here's a good description I found:

http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn74133.html

[Merlyn]

I may have typed too fast, according to what I was reading earlier the fungus that does this to palms is usually Thielaviopsis.  It typically rots the softer fibers and leaves the tough, stringy ones in place.  At a certain point there's not enough fibers to hold the trunk upright.  In taller trees that's when the crown just suddenly falls off.  If that's what's wrong, there is no known cure.  Banrot claims to be effective against Thielaviopsis, but I don't think that it's actually *proven* to work.

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pp143

Hopefully a couple of fungus experts will chime in here, I'll tag @NOT A TA since we've been discussing Ganoderma and Thielaviopsis in a similar thread.

[NOT A TA]

I've been following along since this thread started to see how things progressed.

Disclaimer: I do not have experience with growing Butia capitata nor do I have any experience with Texas soils or growing conditions.

There were discussions early in the thread concerning nutrients and soil PH. Plants that size wouldn't typically show nutrient deficiency on mature older leaves within a month of transplant AFIK. If there were PH considerations likely to affect those palms in that particular area, nurseries probably wouldn't sell them or plant them without discussing the possible problems with the customer and possibly having a soil analysis done. Particularly if any type of guarantee is involved.

I'd dig up the dead one and see if it looks like it was planted properly. Then I'd cut the top off about where the taper starts and see what the inside looks like. If Thielaviopsis is present there will be discoloration of a trunk section near the outside and the tissue will be stringy as @Merlyn2220 mentioned. If the upper wood is clear, I'd cut it down low like 18" from soil line and take a look. If the center is discolored it may be a case of Ganoderma. If Ganoderma Zonatum is found there's no way of knowing when it started.

Because the plants are new to you, you don't have it's history to help diagnosis. It could have been stressed badly before it ever got to your home. Over watered, under watered, wind burned in the back of a truck, trimmed with disease contaminated pruning tools, etc. etc. etc.  If infected by a disease like Thielaviopsis that is reported to enter through wounds the two declining Butia may have been contaminated by a pruning tool while the other (apparently) healthy ones weren't trimmed by the same tool. Hopefully you have some kind of warranty to cover replacement. Sorry for your loss.

Captan is not systemic to my knowledge and that's why repeat applications within days is usually required for preventive control of "damping off" etc.   It's biodegradable with a very short half life once it hits soil. Banrot  (also commonly used to prevent damping off)  said to be effective against Thielaviopsis is typically used as a preventative soil drench. AFAK nothing can stop Thielaviopsis once a plant is infected.

This is a good quick read for all the "Why did my palm die?" threads and explains why there isn't usually a definitive answer anyone can give with only a couple pics and little background information to go on.  https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pp166

[boaterboat]

Just thought I would post a few pics of the palms now that I have finally cut them down.