Growth Rate fortunei vs wagnerianous

[The3ngineer]

I'm looking for a windmill with about 6' or 7' of trunk. The fortunei are readily available in any size but the only wagnerianous I can find is about 4.5' high overall. I keep reading conflicting information online about the growth rate of wagnerianous vs fortuei, some say they are equal some say wagnerianous is much slower. I'm afraid that if I buy the wagnerianous it will take 10 years to achieve the height I'm looking for but if I buy the fortunei it will grow too fast. Can anyone advise? Thanks. 

 

[Allen]

My waggie seems to be much slower putting out fewer fronds and size.  Fronds are basically completely wind proof from droop though but small.  A fortunei looks rather large beside it.  I've tried to find a large trunked waggie. with 0 luck.   Let me know if you find one.  

[Chester B]

Waggies are slower for me.  The nursery by me sells big ones and they are about twice the price of a fortuneii for the same height.

[mdsonofthesouth]

Is the hardiness noticeably better with a waggie? I always seem to hear conflicting reports from identical hardiness to markedly better that traditional fortunei. 

[Chester B]

Personally I don't think there is any discernible difference.  The nursery by me killed  a 15' waggie in a box during an especially bad cold snap a few years back, all the fortunei survived.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Chester B

[Allen]

Mine spear pulled this year at 16F because I basically didn't have to protect much this year and it is over 15 gallon size .   I would guess less hardy because a slower growth rate is harder to grow out of damage.  They seem to damage at similar temps but mine is usually covered.  

 

 

[Steve in Florida]

I've been growing Waggies for years.  Nine to twelve inches a year in height is very obtainable if you have decent soil

[Cikas]

4 hours ago, The3ngineer said:

I'm looking for a windmill with about 6' or 7' of trunk. The fortunei are readily available in any size but the only wagnerianous I can find is about 4.5' high overall. I keep reading conflicting information online about the growth rate of wagnerianous vs fortuei, some say they are equal some say wagnerianous is much slower. I'm afraid that if I buy the wagnerianous it will take 10 years to achieve the height I'm looking for but if I buy the fortunei it will grow too fast. Can anyone advise? Thanks. 

 

 

Wagnerianus is much slower. But it is waay more wind resistant. 

[jimmyt]

I have a fortunei in the ground for 10 yrs.  growth is moderate only.  Might put on 1+ foot a year.  Now about 13 foot tall.  Survived 8 F winter night without any problems, and 114 F in summer as well.  Appreciates water in the summer but can go without too. Waggies I have only seedlings for now.

[Flow]

My waggy puts on around 20cm of trunk and 10-15 fronds a year. Fast enough for me.

[RaleighNC]

Waggies grow more slowly for me than do regular T. fortunei. But I prefer it that way.  I find that the small leaves of waggies look out of proportion to the trunk once they start getting big.  But they can look better in the shade, where the leaves get larger. 

[Chester B]

6 minutes ago, RaleighNC said:

Waggies grow more slowly for me than do regular T. fortunei. But I prefer it that way.  I find that the small leaves of waggies look out of proportion to the trunk once they start getting big.  But they can look better in the shade, where the leaves get larger. 

Very true

[LivistonaFan]

On 7/23/2019 at 5:17 PM, The3ngineer said:

I'm looking for a windmill with about 6' or 7' of trunk. The fortunei are readily available in any size but the only wagnerianous I can find is about 4.5' high overall. I keep reading conflicting information online about the growth rate of wagnerianous vs fortuei, some say they are equal some say wagnerianous is much slower. I'm afraid that if I buy the wagnerianous it will take 10 years to achieve the height I'm looking for but if I buy the fortunei it will grow too fast. Can anyone advise? Thanks. 

 

I had exactly the same questions. That was why I bought some days ago of either one a small specimen (the waggie was almost 3 times as expensive). I looked for them online to be the same size, though you can see that the waggie is slightly bigger, but not by much. They will be planted very soon in the ground next to each other.  Today and at least the next 3 days we will hit 35 °C and more (95°F) -> perfect planting weather.

 

 

I am almost 100% sure that the non-palm-people (way too many of them here) will state in a few years (if the palms are still alive then) that the wagnerianus looks very sickly because of its little crown. But I will plant it nevertheless, as I will have soon in total 5 fortunei planted (+1 T. nova +1 Rhapidophyllum hystrix) and there is not much variety possible in our cold zone (maybe also Sabal minor, but I don't like them too much).

 

If you wait a few years, you can deduct your answer from my observations.

But in all honesty, with a full crown (which won't be that big in your Texas sun) wagnerianus are only good-looking to about 1.5-2m stem (5-7ft) and T. fortunei to about 4-5m stem (13-16ft) (in Texas afternoon sun probably even less).

 

I guess you can slow T. fortunei down (to reach the critical size later) by not watering it as much as you normally would do, but then again the crown will be much smaller. 

The biggest crowns of fortunei I ever saw were in England, even bigger than in Ticino (Switzerland) where they seem to be right at home, and way bigger than those at the mediterranean coast. -> water is the key I guess to attain a big crown

Edited July 24, 2019 by LivistonaFan

[Chester B]

Waggies can look good when big.  This one I've been told is a Waggie and is at a nursery nearby me, I didn't even realize it was one.  This was an empty field about 8 years ago but now has a lot of shade.

 

[Vic]

I’d say the are about the same I’m the UK all mine put on about 12” of trunk a year. They are a bit slower as seedlings, but once they start to trunk and if given plenty of water they are reasonably quick. It’s worth noting that a pot grown one will always be better than a field grown specimen that’s had its roots heavily pruned, they will be nowhere near as fast. So buy small (2-3ft) is my suggestion. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Vic

[PlantDad]

On 7/24/2019 at 12:17 PM, Chester B said:

Waggies can look good when big.  This one I've been told is a Waggie and is at a nursery nearby me, I didn't even realize it was one.  This was an empty field about 8 years ago but now has a lot of shade.

 

what nursery is that?

[Chester B]

Cistus Design Nursery on Sauvie Island, just outside Portland. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

It's typical to see T wagnerianus slower when young. Once the trunk forms to a decent size, they do speed up considerably.

Cheers, Barrie.

[cm05]

My fastest growing Trachycarpus:

1. Fortunei (tied)

1. Nova (tied)

3. Takil

4. Princeps

5. Wagnerianus

All growing in full sun.

My Princeps has actually put out as many fronds as my Nova but they stay fairly small whereas the Nova is getting larger and looks more robust. My Takil recovered from partial spear pull, which stunted its growth initially this year.

[RJ]

Where are you folks getting the real deal Takil's from? My understanding is a lot of fakes were going around. Not necessarily as fakes but just miss identified. 

 

Edit: Would most likely need to be mail order as no specialty nurseries around. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by RJ

[Chester B]

I know Cistus nursery here in Oregon still has some left from the batch I purchased from.  They do mail order but you have to call them, and they don't keep their website catalog up to date so you won't see them listed.  Not cheap though, it was either $45 of $55 for a one gallon, plus you'll have to pay for shipping.  

They are real takil not Fortunei "Naini Tal"

[Pal Meir]

Another pic of a bigger T wagner, here in Tôkyô:

[cm05]

I ordered my Takil from a palm enthusiast/grower in Alabama, that’s also where I got my Wagnerianus.

Here’s a photo of it from winter:

 

[Las Palmas Norte]

18 hours ago, cm05 said:

I ordered my Takil from a palm enthusiast/grower in Alabama, that’s also where I got my Wagnerianus.

Here’s a photo of it from winter:

 

 

That looks more like Trachycarpus ukhrulensis (Manipur) with the "V" shaped leaves.

Cheers, Barrie.

[Vic]

16 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

 

That looks more like Trachycarpus ukhrulensis (Manipur) with the "V" shaped leaves.

Cheers, Barrie.

Yes you are right, but true takil is very similar looking to T. ukrhulensis at a young age, so it could well be takil. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 8/20/2019 at 1:26 PM, Vic said:

Yes you are right, but true takil is very similar looking to T. ukrhulensis at a young age, so it could well be takil. 

 

Good to know since the takil's I've had all turned out to be fortune in the end.

Cheers, Barrie. 

[Chester B]

53 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

 

Good to know since the takil's I've had all turned out to be fortune in the end.

Cheers, Barrie. 

It seems like they're becoming more available.  Don't give up!

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Unfortunately there are a lot of unscrupulous growers that will say anything is XXX if that is what your ask for.   In hot texas summers Fortunei nova are rockets and by far the fastest growers followed by Winsan.  Waggy are the slowest with Takil and princeps are in the middle.  I have no doubt that waggy would grow much faster in an area that has overcast and cooler weather for most of the year.  Waggy and Parajubaea seem to respond to the same temperatures (not the same moisture though).