Washingtonia Filifera/Robusta ?

[RJ]

Been keeping an eye on this palm for the last year or so. It’s a Washingtonia For sure but not sure if it’s a hybrid or not. It certainly saw teens the winter or 17/18. It was damage some but roared right back. Curious what you guys thought. It’s been in the ground since just a little guy and they’re is another probably 50ft from it also doing well , looks identical . What do you Washingtonia experts think?

[RJ]

[UK_Palms]

At first glance I thought it was a pure Robusta, but after further examination I suspect it is a hybrid Filibusta that is leaning heavily towards Robusta dominance. It certainly has more evident Robusta traits, than Filifera.

The green petiole bases are an indicator of some Filifera genes, but the rest of the palm is Robusta looking (trunk, fronds, thorns). I have several robusta dominant hybrids that look like this one, just not as large as this specimen. So I am pretty sure it is a hybrid Filibusta that is just Robusta dominant. 

It could well be pure Robusta though. It will be interesting to see what others think...?

[Fusca]

99% sure it's a hybrid filibusta.  Unless you're certain of the seed source for the palm it's probably a hybrid.  Most washies commercially grown and sold in U.S. nurseries and big box stores are filibusta - even those labeled as filifera or robusta.  Lots of natural hybridization with these.

[PalmTreeDude]

My guess is it's a hybrid or a robusta. 

[RJ]

Let go with the premise that this is a hybrid. Are the seeds of a Washingtonia viable? If they are, what do they resemble or is it highly variable? 

 

 

[Josue Diaz]

9 minutes ago, RJ said:

Let go with the premise that this is a hybrid. Are the seeds of a Washingtonia viable? If they are, what do they resemble or is it highly variable? 

 

 

seeds of both species are identical. 

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, RJ said:

Are the seeds of a Washingtonia viable?

They're so viable that they pop up everywhere - even in cracks of sidewalks and curbs.  They show up in flower beds of businesses and homeowners which do not even have palms in their landscapes.  Randy, are you looking to collect seeds from this tree?  It doesn't look like it has flowered yet.  It seems that in areas with colder winters they don't flower until they're about double that size.  There are literally hundreds of mature fruiting washies around town here with even more fiiifera-type traits (thick trunk, green petioles, greyish-green leaves).  Let me know if you want some seeds from the alamo city - I could send you some.

Jon

[RJ]

2 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

seeds of both species are identical. 

Josue, I guess I should of been a little more clear. For instance, when breeding mules *(Pindo X queen)  the offspring can develop into quite different looking palms, even from the same lineage. I was wondering if this was also the case when crossing the Washingtonia. 

 

[Josue Diaz]

Ahh i see. They're variable, but I would imagine that since there are not many (if any?) other washingtonia in the area, this palm will self-pollinate, so the resulting offspring will likely be similar to the parent. 

[RJ]

44 minutes ago, Fusca said:

They're so viable that they pop up everywhere - even in cracks of sidewalks and curbs.  They show up in flower beds of businesses and homeowners which do not even have palms in their landscapes.  Randy, are you looking to collect seeds from this tree?  It doesn't look like it has flowered yet.  It seems that in areas with colder winters they don't flower until they're about double that size.  There are literally hundreds of mature fruiting washies around town here with even more fiiifera-type traits (thick trunk, green petioles, greyish-green leaves).  Let me know if you want some seeds from the alamo city - I could send you some.

Jon

 

 

Jon, I was thinking of doing just that. You don't see a lot of them around here as I would venture we are at the northern  limit of their cultivation in the SE. Last winter was the worst in many decades here and these palms with no protections sailed through it. I would like to try a full blown filifera however, I imagine our humidity could be problematic.  I don't think a full robusta would make it here either. (perhaps they're are some here that I don't know of)  I would certainly be interested in some more filifera leaning ones if you wouldn't mind. 

 

Cheers

 

RJ

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, Josue Diaz said:

Ahh i see. They're variable, but I would imagine that since there are not many (if any?) other washingtonia in the area, this palm will self-pollinate, so the resulting offspring will likely be similar to the parent. 

Washingtonia can self pollenate? I was of the assumption that all palms are either male or female, and require another palm of the same genus, or similar, that is of the opposite sex to create viable seed...? Unless of course the palm is a hermaphrodite and has inflorescence of both sexes present, which is pretty rare. Or is this a common occurrence with Washingtonia? For instance, I remember hearing that around 1 in 150 Trachycarpus's will be hermaphrodite. So I wouldn't expect the palm in the OP's picture to be a hermaphrodite. If it's a female for instance, wouldn't it require a male still?

[RJ]

1 hour ago, Josue Diaz said:

Ahh i see. They're variable, but I would imagine that since there are not many (if any?) other washingtonia in the area, this palm will self-pollinate, so the resulting offspring will likely be similar to the parent. 

There is another one that appears identical about 50ft from this one, same size etc. I can only gather they were planted at the same time. From the same seed batch ????

 

 

[RJ]

25 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Washingtonia can self pollenate? I was of the assumption that all palms are either male or female, and require another palm of the same genus, or similar, that is of the opposite sex to create viable seed...? Unless of course the palm is a hermaphrodite and has inflorescence of both sexes present, which is pretty rare. Or is this a common occurrence with Washingtonia? For instance, I remember hearing that around 1 in 150 Trachycarpus's will be hermaphrodite. So I wouldn't expect the palm in the OP's picture to be a hermaphrodite. If it's a female for instance, wouldn't it require a male still?

Some palms require a male and female to be close by, phoenix comes to mind,  IIRC trachy's are one such palm also. Pindo's have both Male and female flowers and can self pollinate, as with sabals. I'm sure there are countless examples of both. However, some plants might have both male and female flowers but can't self pollinate. 

 

 

[Fusca]

2 hours ago, RJ said:

Josue, I guess I should of been a little more clear. For instance, when breeding mules *(Pindo X queen)  the offspring can develop into quite different looking palms, even from the same lineage. I was wondering if this was also the case when crossing the Washingtonia. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Josue Diaz said:

Ahh i see. They're variable, but I would imagine that since there are not many (if any?) other washingtonia in the area, this palm will self-pollinate, so the resulting offspring will likely be similar to the parent. 

Josue is right and it will self-pollinate.  Even if your palm and the one nearby flower at the same time and they mix pollen it will likely look similar to either parent (which are probably both hybrids anyway).  But in reality there isn't a HUGE visual difference between the pure W. robusta and pure W. filifera to the casual observer (especially in juvenile plants) and even less visual difference between hybrids so the resulting cross isn't going to look so different from either parent.  There is a pretty obvious visual difference between Butia and Syagrus so the mule hybrid variation is more visually obvious in that cross.  The problem with Washingtonia seed collection in areas like mine and California where there are SO MANY different washies around you can't always be sure of what you're getting from seeds except some likely hybrid influence/variation. 

[Josue Diaz]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

Washingtonia can self pollenate? I was of the assumption that all palms are either male or female, and require another palm of the same genus, or similar, that is of the opposite sex to create viable seed...? Unless of course the palm is a hermaphrodite and has inflorescence of both sexes present, which is pretty rare. Or is this a common occurrence with Washingtonia? For instance, I remember hearing that around 1 in 150 Trachycarpus's will be hermaphrodite. So I wouldn't expect the palm in the OP's picture to be a hermaphrodite. If it's a female for instance, wouldn't it require a male still?

Palm species (all plants species for that matter) are classified as either monoecious - having 'perfect' flowers with both stamens and carpels -  or dioecious where each invididual has only stamens or only carpels. To further complicate things, some species are monoecious but bear female flowers separate from male flowers on the same plant (squash comes to mind, perhaps avocados? I can't recall.) Washingtonia species are monoecious, having both male and female reproductive parts on the same plant, so they can self-pollinate. I'm unsure of which of these trachycarpus species may be, but I'd be willing to bet they're monoecious also. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Josue Diaz

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, RJ said:

 

 

Jon, I was thinking of doing just that. You don't see a lot of them around here as I would venture we are at the northern  limit of their cultivation in the SE. Last winter was the worst in many decades here and these palms with no protections sailed through it. I would like to try a full blown filifera however, I imagine our humidity could be problematic.  I don't think a full robusta would make it here either. (perhaps they're are some here that I don't know of)  I would certainly be interested in some more filifera leaning ones if you wouldn't mind. 

 

Cheers

 

RJ

Good luck finding a decent Filifera dominant hybrid Filibusta. In my experience, about 50-60% come out Robusta dominant, around 30% are 50:50 hybrids, and only 20% are Filifera dominant. And the ones that are Filifera dominant seem to be more prone to growth deformities, fungus, insect attacks, lack of vigour etc. I don't know why, but I have definitely noticed this. 

I collected my Filibusta seed from a Filifera in Portugal as well, which had been pollenated by a male Robusta that was sitting right next to it. But despite the female being Filifera, the offspring are still mostly Robusta dominant in nature. So the Robusta must have a dominant gene, as most other people seem to have Robusta leaning hybrids as well. Although the strongest, healthiest, most vigorous specimens are all 50:50 hybrid types or Robusta dominant ones.

 

Here are my results from a batch of seeds I started just over 1 year ago...

 

Specimen 1 - Heavy Robusta dominance (entirely Robusta looking, same cold hardiness and water/humidity resistance as regular Robusta).

Specimen 2 - Heavy Robusta dominance (entirely Robusta looking, same water/humidity resistance as regular Robusta, but slightly better cold hardiness). 

Specimen 3 - Robusta dominant (mostly Robusta looking, same water/humidity resistance as regular Robusta, but much better cold hardiness, also super vigorous!).

Specimen 4 - Robusta dominant (mostly Robusta looking, slightly better cold hardiness, slightly worse water/humidity resistance) 

Specimen 5 - Robusta dominant (mostly Robusta looking, slightly better cold resistance, slightly worse water/humidity resistance). 

Specimen 6 - Robusta dominant (mostly Robusta looking, slightly better cold hardiness, strangely though it has awful water/humidity resistance & is also the runt of the litter). 

 

Specimen 7 - 50:50 hybrid (Equal mix, better cold hardiness from Filifera genes, excellent water/humidity resistance from Robusta genes). 

Specimen 8 - 50:50 hybrid (Equal mix, excellent cold hardiness from Filifera genes, excellent water/humidity resistance from Robusta genes, super vigorous!).

Specimen 9 - 50:50 hybrid (Equal mix, excellent cold hardiness from Filifera genes, but not as resistant to water/humidity as pure Robusta).

 

Specimen 10 - Filifera dominant (mostly Filifera looking, excellent cold hardiness, good water/humidity resistance - could be more 50:50 hybrid than Filifera).

Specimen 11 - Filifera dominant (mostly Filifera looking, good cold hardiness but awful water/humidity resistance and prone to fungal attacks).

Specimen 12 - Heavy Filifera dominance (entirely Filifera looking, good cold hardiness but poor water/humidity resistance and prone to fungal attacks).

 

As you can see, specimens 3, 7 and 8 are by far the best and are currently thriving. 

Specimens 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9 and 10 are all keepers, including all of the 50:50 hybrids. 

Specimens 1, 6, 11 and 12 are inferior for Filibusta hybrids and could potentially be culled, which would leave me with just one Filifera dominant specimen, three 50:50 hybrids and four Robusta dominant specimens. I don't have room for 12 Filibusta hybrids in the coming years, so will probably cull those 4 that are not on par with the other 8.