3 hours ago, Garcia3 said:

@msporty Thank you very much!  I try to follow that same advice but my garden has turned into a hodgepodge of plants I love!  Now I just try to group things if & when possible into a pleasing manner,  well... pleasing to my eyes at least, lol.  I've never done an official garden post but I'll definitely consider it.  And yes, pictured with the A Ramosissima above is Mangave - Lady Lavender and Agave - Montana.  @Tracy One more pic of a much older A. Dichotoma to give you a sense of what the trunk can get to on these guys.  This isn't my garden, it is a Nursery up in Cave Creek, A. Ramosissima will be a shorter form of what you see below. 

Last summer my wife and I were out walking through Solana Beach and spotted this older specimen.  I guess the follow up questions are how long to get to this size and space demand.  Beautiful garden by the way.  I have to admit. My planting style is more of an eclectic mix as opposed to groupings.  Perhaps I would be more creative with groupings if I weren't so space constrained.  I can still admire it in other's gardens. 

Not enough space in the long run for this Aloidendron dichotomum, but I wanted to get it out of the pot.  It is one of the two in the second batch I originally purchased as Aloidendron ramosissimum but both are A dichotomum.  This is from autumn of 2019 so about 3 1/2 years from my original photos in this string, before I discovered the incorrect id.  It has definitely sped up after putting in the ground.  I have 13 year old Hercules, which is pretty massive now, so I'm glad this doesn't have the hybrid vigor that it does.

@Garcia3, @Tracy, beautiful specimens! I love these. Going to get one & keep in a pot 😁

Tohono Chul Park ( Tucson ) Specimen. Garden recently saw a couple inches of Snow there.

12 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Tohono Chul Park ( Tucson ) Specimen.

Wow that one has really long leaves if that is the appropriate name for them.  It is really interesting to see the different growth habits.  The fact that it grows at that elevation exposed to some snow is a good sign for James growing them successfully through winter in Hesperia.  The other good thing about this species, is that James can also grow it in a pot, and move it into a sheltered position when the worst winter temps arrive.  It will be interesting to compare the specimens growing at lower elevations in the Phoenix area to this one since there is a bit of a shift up in temperature ranges, both highs and lows.

1 hour ago, Tracy said:

Wow that one has really long leaves if that is the appropriate name for them.  It is really interesting to see the different growth habits.  The fact that it grows at that elevation exposed to some snow is a good sign for James growing them successfully through winter in Hesperia.  The other good thing about this species, is that James can also grow it in a pot, and move it into a sheltered position when the worst winter temps arrive.  It will be interesting to compare the specimens growing at lower elevations in the Phoenix area to this one since there is a bit of a shift up in temperature ranges, both highs and lows.

I was thinking something similar ..It might do alright for him if sheltered from the worst winters / hottest part of summers up there..

As far as the garden, it sits in one of the warmest sections of Tucson itself ..Listed as 9b, though it could be a touch warmer there now.. and in the area of Tucson where Oranges / other citrus, i think.. were grown.

As noted in the past, they have a -scraggly ( growing up through denser canopy ) but alive Colvillea racemosa  in a different area  and while they do get nipped during colder winters, the Desert Ficus ( F.. palmeri and petiolaris ) in the " Nacapule Canyon " section of the garden have survived since being installed years ago.

Then, as noted in the past, there is this..  No idea how it survives there since they're " supposed" to be relatively cold sensitive. Wall / narrow bed help for sure, but would expect to see scars from previous damage to the tops.. Have yet to see any growing here -though  i'm sure someone -somewhere around Phoenix is growing them.



This as well.. Assuming it isn't covered during the coldest part of the season, curious to see how it looks after this winter.

The biggest Aloidendron ramosissimum I have really needs to get out of this pot, but I'm probably going to wait now until the pot cracks open under the pressure of the roots and trunk.  I can't lift the pot anymore since roots are going out the bottom and into the surrounding soil.  The little one in the terracotta pot was starting to look more like the way the ones that I got and turned out to be Aloidendron dichotomum, but I'm seeing signs now that encourage me to think it will be the smaller species, A ramosisimum.  Anyone else see why I think it may be A ramosisimum  after all?

4 minutes ago, Tracy said:

The biggest Aloidendron ramosissimum I have really needs to get out of this pot, but I'm probably going to wait now until the pot cracks open under the pressure of the roots and trunk.  I can't lift the pot anymore since roots are going out the bottom and into the surrounding soil. 

 

Rock it until it comes loose ( ...Or loose enough, from the ground ) and tap that pot like a Pinata w a hammer until it cracks..   Simple enough.

11 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Rock it until it comes loose ( ...Or loose enough, from the ground ) and tap that pot like a Pinata w a hammer until it cracks..   Simple enough.

I hate losing the pot which is why I'm just deferring the day until it does it on it's own.  The other problem is location for replanting it.  I probably won't replant where the pot is today because there will be a fight eventually between my Encephalartos inopinus and the Aloidendron ramosissimum.   Both are prized plants, so I will need to referee and call it a draw, relocating the easiest of the two.  Since the Aloidendron will eventually have to exit its pot, it is the one that will get moved.  The best spot to replant it is in the front yard, but I won't risk putting it out there.

Thank you for the advice on getting the pot out Nathan.... but I'll wait until it is even more rooted in and more difficult just to defer the problem.

@Tracy

The state of confusion over Aloidendron ramosissimum and Aloidendron dichotomum seems to be an ongoing issue in cultivation.

I have a supposed Aloidendron ramosissimum that I now believe may be otherwise. It has grown pretty quickly from a 4" pot size to a 3g. It's still small, but it's unbranched and the leaves are enlarging. 

I recently planted it out, but it's not a very good spot for an A dichotomum if that's what it is...

8 hours ago, Rivera said:

@Tracy

The state of confusion over Aloidendron ramosissimum and Aloidendron dichotomum seems to be an ongoing issue in cultivation.

I have a supposed Aloidendron ramosissimum that I now believe may be otherwise. It has grown pretty quickly from a 4" pot size to a 3g. It's still small, but it's unbranched and the leaves are enlarging. 

I recently planted it out, but it's not a very good spot for an A dichotomum if that's what it is...

That looks like Aloidendron dichotomum or a hybrid as opposed to Aloidendron ramosissimum. Based on the mislabeling, I suspect the two must hybridize easily and it isn't intentional. Another friend mentioned that he has grown some specimen that are clearly hybrids.   Perhaps they are promiscuous. 

On 2/28/2023 at 4:45 PM, Garcia3 said:

Also, forgot to add Aloidendron hybridize easily! Especially A. Dichotoma & A. Ramosissima.  Most of what I've been told is that when specimens are young, early branching tends to be the most distinguishing characteristic between the two.  That said I have a couple of hybrids (Dichotoma/Ramosissima) in my yard that show the bigger leaf size of Dichotoma paired with the early low branching typical of Ramosissima.  

I suspect this one is a hybrid.  This is one acquired as Aloidendron ramosissimum but since I got it started showing larger leaves than the other one I got at the same time, same source.  It recently started to branch, which is why I'm thinking it is an Aloidendron dichotomum x ramosissimum or A ramosissimum x dichotomum.  The latter is more probable since it was labeled as A ramosissimum, I would expect that the grower knew the mother plant but didn't realize that another species father had gotten into the mix.

Here’s my Aloidendron Ramosissimum I got from @EAD a few months ago. Terrible timing to attempt a cutting but oh well. Hopefully it pulls thru. Good shape on this guy. 
 

-dale 

19 hours ago, Billeb said:

Here’s my Aloidendron Ramosissimum I got from @EAD a few months ago. Terrible timing to attempt a cutting but oh well. Hopefully it pulls thru. Good shape on this guy. 
 

-dale 

Nice. Maybe it's not a bad time since these are winter growers? My plant seems to not be a pure A. ramosissimum, but it is much more active in winter in terms of root and leaf growth.

Since my largest has outgrown its pot, I decided to put it in the ground.  I had to remove a clumping Aloe, which was getting out of control, to create an appropriate planting place.

Like my other Aloidendron species in the ground, I used decomposed granite to create a well draining mound.  It will be fun to see if it picks up speed with more space for roots.

This is one that I believe is true to form for pure Aloidendron ramosissimum.   It isn't painfully slow to grow but remains slow enough that I don't have to worry that it will takeover the planter any time soon. 

Heres my little plants. They both need to be potted up! I really like the trunks on these when they get big.

8 minutes ago, Urban Rainforest said:

Heres my little plants. They both need to be potted up! I really like the trunks on these when they get big.

The second one looks like Aloidendron dichotomum which just means you will need more space.

10 minutes ago, Tracy said:

The second one looks like Aloidendron dichotomum which just means you will need more space.

Yes it is and im glad its on the slow side lol.

Just now, Urban Rainforest said:

Yes it is and im glad its on the slow side lol.

The Aloidendron dichotomum really accelerate when in the ground unlike the ramosissimum which maintains the same pace in pot or ground in my experience.   

Thanks Tracy! Good to know. It does have that look lately like it wants to take off.

For those wanting an Aloidendron that branches early, you can't top Aloidendron ramosissimum. Here is the one I planted in March 2024, pictured earlier in this thread both in ground and in a pot.

Looking good Tracy! I just potted up my Aloidendron Ramosissimum and my Aloidendron Dichotomum in April. I bought both 2 years ago as seedlings. The Dichotomum I potted up into a 15 gal. and it is growing fast. The Ramosissimum is slooow but like you said they do branch early.

So with much guilt I picked up a A. Ramosissimum today. I’ve been buying a few too many plants for my front yard. Mostly desert hardy plants that can take the Tucson sun. Tracy was kind enough to point to this thread and I’ve enjoyed all the specimens shared here. I was originally fixated on getting an A. Hercules branched out but I do think the A. Ramosissimum fits the bill in that department. Not sure how long I’ll keep this guy in a pot. I’m not much of a pot person (lol). My front yard kind of slopes down and will help with drainage. There’s a young Chinese elm there that can potentially nurse if I plant him in the northeast side. I’ll have to remove a Texas ranger and trade spots. I have a potential new home for the ranger if it accepts being transplanted.

The other picture has an A. Dichotomum I picked up earlier in the year from Plants for the Southwest. Still not quite sure where he’ll eventually go. My backyard does not have much shade but I might have to plant something to grow with next to him as a nurse plant until he’s mature enough to hold his own.

The pot looks like it’s 2 different plants in one pot but they are joined together at the bottom. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing. Time will tell

21 hours ago, CaryElTucson said:

So with much guilt I picked up a A. Ramosissimum today. I’ve been buying a few too many plants for my front yard. Mostly desert hardy plants that can take the Tucson sun. Tracy was kind enough to point to this thread and I’ve enjoyed all the specimens shared here. I was originally fixated on getting an A. Hercules branched out but I do think the A. Ramosissimum fits the bill in that department. Not sure how long I’ll keep this guy in a pot. I’m not much of a pot person (lol). My front yard kind of slopes down and will help with drainage. There’s a young Chinese elm there that can potentially nurse if I plant him in the northeast side. I’ll have to remove a Texas ranger and trade spots. I have a potential new home for the ranger if it accepts being transplanted.

The other picture has an A. Dichotomum I picked up earlier in the year from Plants for the Southwest. Still not quite sure where he’ll eventually go. My backyard does not have much shade but I might have to plant something to grow with next to him as a nurse plant until he’s mature enough to hold his own.

Nice finds How is ol' Gene doing? Need to stop in and pick his brain about some rarer trees.

Intrigued by your ramo. Seems it's leaves are longer than most i've seen in nurseries / gardens / used to sell. Regardless, looks great. Finding that size of a Dicho. is a bonus.

Since they're prone to loosing branches in storms, not sure i would plant it under the elm ( ..Would yank & replace it w/ something more regionally appropriate )




Leucophyllum ( TX. Sage / Ranger ...whatever... ...Avoid use of common names as much as possible myself ) can survive transplanting, but have to be monitored carefully thru the process..

....Take to small of a rootball when moving, they may die.. Too much water, ..until they show obvious signs that they're putting on a new root system, they'll croak as well.

Now that we're headed into fall ..which will hopefully be mild and on the wetter side, = perfect time to move it.




FYI, in case you hadn't heard: in honor of their 50 year anniversary, Aridlands is offering 50% off -everything- to walk- in customers this Saturday.. Offer does not apply to any wholesale / mail ordered plants.

3 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Nice finds How is ol' Gene doing? Need to stop in and pick his brain about some rarer trees.

Intrigued by your ramo. Seems it's leaves are longer than most i've seen in nurseries / gardens / used to sell. Regardless, looks great. Finding that size of a Dicho. is a bonus.

Since they're prone to loosing branches in storms, not sure i would plant it under the elm ( ..Would yank & replace it w/ something more regionally appropriate )




Leucophyllum ( TX. Sage / Ranger ...whatever... ...Avoid use of common names as much as possible myself ) can survive transplanting, but have to be monitored carefully thru the process..

....Take to small of a rootball when moving, they may die.. Too much water, ..until they show obvious signs that they're putting on a new root system, they'll croak as well.

Now that we're headed into fall ..which will hopefully be mild and on the wetter side, = perfect time to move it.




FYI, in case you hadn't heard: in honor of their 50 year anniversary, Aridlands is offering 50% off -everything- to walk- in customers this Saturday.. Offer does not apply to any wholesale / mail ordered plants.

The day I purchased the Dicho, Gene was there and welcomed us with a short preview. It was my first time stepping in there even though I had driven by it hundreds of times. My mother happens to live in the neighborhood (pobrecita) so I always drive by and look at the Bismarck palm in front of the nursery. So a couple weeks ago I met his wife and she gave me some good tips on how to get my young Bismarck rolling since it seems to struggle to grow in height.

The Ramo I purchased at Bach’s and I’m thinking it’s from a cutting and not from seed. They have them in the large covered greenhouse so I’m sure they live it in there with the heat.

So what’s your experience with Chinese elms? The one have I planted about 6 years ago from a 15 gallon. It’s now ruffly about 15 tall with the canopy stretching about 15-20 feet. The spot would be about 8-10 fr away from the trunk. I would hate to yank that thing since it’s producing some nice shade now. Plus, I’ve seen how my neighbors have had their mesquites and paloverdes torn down by the storm winds.

1 hour ago, CaryElTucson said:

The day I purchased the Dicho, Gene was there and welcomed us with a short preview. It was my first time stepping in there even though I had driven by it hundreds of times. My mother happens to live in the neighborhood (pobrecita) so I always drive by and look at the Bismarck palm in front of the nursery. So a couple weeks ago I met his wife and she gave me some good tips on how to get my young Bismarck rolling since it seems to struggle to grow in height.

The Ramo I purchased at Bach’s and I’m thinking it’s from a cutting and not from seed. They have them in the large covered greenhouse so I’m sure they live it in there with the heat.

So what’s your experience with Chinese elms? The one have I planted about 6 years ago from a 15 gallon. It’s now ruffly about 15 tall with the canopy stretching about 15-20 feet. The spot would be about 8-10 fr away from the trunk. I would hate to yank that thing since it’s producing some nice shade now. Plus, I’ve seen how my neighbors have had their mesquites and paloverdes torn down by the storm winds.

...Their Bismarck was quite the " growing well in Tucson " surprise when i made my first visit there after the move here back in '16. May have asked Gene about it but, ..it's been awhile, lol. I visited to get info on some rarer, regionally native tree sps some people i'd known from Desert Survivors had mentioned Gene might be growing. ..and to pick up some other stuff. My pair of Cyrtocarpa edulis, a very rare ( ..for now.. ) .. and really neat tree from southern Baja came from his place. Anyway,

I'd wanted to meet / talk with his other half but never seemed to cross paths with her whenever i was in town.

Yeah, that's the thing about Bach's ..Visited once, enjoyed the visit / picked up a couple things but, their nursery seemed a bit more " standard fare " than say the trips to Aridlands. If it was grown in one of the greenhouses / under shade, that may explain why the leaves are a bit long, compared to other specimens i've seen. When you go to Tohono Chul ..and /or make a trip to Aridlands, you might get a better idea of how " pure " it may ..or may not.. be. Bob, over at Aridlands, is the go to guru when it comes to African succulents, having traveled all over South Africa. Imagine if you showed him a couple shots of the plant, he'd be able to tell if there's something mixed in w/ it's genetics, or if it's just stretched out a little.

Regarding Chinese Elms, I will say they aren't nearly as bad ( ...of a non -native, temperate tree option ) as Siberian Elm, which are horrible and do look similar..

That said, there have been reports from various areas of these invading highly irrigated areas outside of cultivated settings, even here in AZ.

They are also susceptible to random, sudden die back as well, like a lot of non natives that are better suited to consistently moister areas ( Elms are typically found near streams ). Being a " Riparian habitat " - type tree, they can have lots of thirsty surface roots, vs. desert trees that produce deep, anchoring taproots and a smaller degree of near surface lateral roots.

There is an Apartment complex w/ several Chinese / Lacebark Elms lining a portion of the property and they do look good / are maintained well, but i've seen sizable pieces sheered off of a few of them after some of our bigger storms, and some die back on others. Have seen them drop dead as soon as regular irrigation is cut off in other areas.

Since it is bigger than it looks in the background of the picture w/ a view of your yard, i'd probably just let it be and see what happens. 10ft away from it will probably be alright, just remember the Aloe will require much less water than the Elm.


As far as Mesquite and Palo Verde go, ...for the most part, majority of those you and i see blow down / sheer off in large sections after storms are the non - native Mesquite ( Pure species and cultivars involving the South American species, IE: Argentine / Chilean ..and what many refer to as " Swamp -'Squites, which are all the rando hybrids between those two, and /or a couple of our local native sps most of the nurseries sell )

Spadefoot Nursery did a good write up on the subject awhile back.

Part of the reason they ...and the hybrid Palo Verde.. ( IE: Desert Museum ) collapse, ...or fully uproot in storms... is due to 3 reasons, 1: extremely fast growth, which often = weak / weak -er wood. 2: How they are maintained, Palo Verde esp. " Lion Tailing " = trimming technique guaranteed to lead to storm damage. See that occur every year, w/ out fail up here... 3: Providing WAYYYYYYY......... too much water in cultivated settings. #3 leads to 1, and is made worse by #2.

Of the species, Blue ( Parkinsonia florida ) and Palo Brea ( Parkinsonia praecox ) like -some- moisture since they do grow close to larger streams out in the desert. That said, what moisture they get in habitat is far less than what is provided in many parks / commercial landscapes, so their overall growth rate is moderate/ steady compared to cultivated specimens.

Honestly, while i like them all, Ft. Hill / Little - Leaf Palo Verde, Parkinsonia microphylla, is the only P.V. i'd plant, since it is the toughest / needs the least amount of water after establishment. These are the Palo Verde you'll see growing alongside Saguaros in the driest areas out in the desert.

Honestly, after 11 years of observation, of all the " desert " trees i've seen daily since moving here, Ironwood ( Olneya tesota ) and TX. Ebony are the two trees i rarely see suffer damage in storms.

Last big storm we had a week or so ago was bad enough that it damaged several roofs pretty badly in the neighborhood and took down one of the big traffic signal poles ( Multi - signal, Mast - Arm type ) near the hospital.

TX Ebony and Ironwood planted on the same corner? not a branch stripped off of them. By contrast? good sized section of a Palo Verde managed to sheer off one of several planted across the street, and blow into the front yard at the old house, after crossing a 6 lane road with a 12ft wide island in the center. Pretty wild. I've watched limbs get ripped off of others / entire specimens get ripped out of the ground over there over the years during storms as well. When i'd examine those ripped out of the ground? ground was always wet / roots rotting.

Neighbor's South American Mesquites? While the top of one looks like it came down recently, i'm surprised all 3 haven't been torn to shreds this year. Since moving here, those trees have suffered major damage 4 times. Massive Mesquite at the old house, which sits just across the alley from our neighbors? Have sat and watched it during some of the worst storms we've had. Only thing it has ever dropped? really old, really dead small branches. Pretty sure its a species from central Mexico ( Neltuma laevigata ).

21 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Yeah, that's the thing about Bach's ..Visited once, enjoyed the visit / picked up a couple things but, their nursery seemed a bit more " standard fare " than say the trips to Aridlands. If it was grown in one of the greenhouses / under shade, that may explain why the leaves are a bit long, compared to other specimens i've seen. When you go to Tohono Chul ..and /or make a trip to Aridlands, you might get a better idea of how " pure " it may ..or may not.. be. Bob, over at Aridlands, is the go to guru when it comes to African succulents, having traveled all over South Africa. Imagine if you showed him a couple shots of the plant, he'd be able to tell if there's something mixed

Thanks again for your wealth of knowledge!

My neighbor has one hybrid paloverde that has grown up to about 20ft tall if not more in a matter of about 7 years.  He’s had some branches torn off from the storm and since has been doing a decent job of keeping it trimmed.  His mesquite which I’m sure was not native was uprooted a few years ago.

Funny how you mention Texas Ebony and Ironwood since those are 2 of the trees I tend to admire in other people’s yards.  I chose the elm because of its low litter during most of the year until they drop their leaves in late winter.  I’ve seen some really nice ones in the Oro valley area but have also seen the ugly ones that probably don’t get enough water.   I’ll have to take the bad with the good and someday it might have to come down.  I’m still not 100% sure if I’ll put the ramo there or the Dicho.  The elm branches would someday interfere with the size of the Dicho but by then who knows if I’ll still be in this house LOL.

The ramo was stuck in middle of the 10-15 other pots so might explain the elongation of the leaves searching for more light.  I still have not made my way to Aridlands.  I did notice he mentions in his website his Ramos are also from cuttings.  He also mentions that he recommends them in pots here in Tucson.  He’s probably talking to the average buyer who would not take the time/care to keep them alive in our climate.

Thanks again for your experience and knowledge!