Geonoma undata Seedling Question

[Jim in Los Altos]

I’ve got these young Geonoma undata seedlings from seed collected at an elevation just over 7,000’ (about 2,000 meters) in Columbia and I have them in a shady location outside at ground level and am wondering if a heat mat would be beneficial to them. My December-January typical high-low temperatures are between 65-40F. Would adding 15 to 20F degrees to their soil, particularly at night, be good or not? Darold, I bet you know. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Jim in Los Altos

[Darold Petty]

Step away from the heat mat, now !  And Do Not Ever let the medium dry out.  (Advice from the school of hard knocks)  

[Jim in Los Altos]

12 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Step away from the heat mat, now !  And Do Not Ever let the medium dry out.  (Advice from the school of hard knocks)  

Good to know Darold. They’re not on a heat mat and never have been but, since their place of origin has a narrow temperature range mostly in the low to mid 60s, day and night, I thought keeping the soil at those temperatures at night might be beneficial. I’ll forego to mat. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

One more question: How much summer daytime warmth can they tolerate? 

[Darold Petty]

JIm, in all seriousness, we never learn anything new by sticking with the received, conventional wisdom.  It seems that you have plenty of the seedlings so why not try the bottom heat on a few?  I do know from direct experience that loss of moisture is immediately and irrevocably fatal.

  (One whole flat of Geonoma weberbaueri in 1996 )

  My direct experience with high heat is very limited, but it seems that the palm would slow the growth rate, sometimes producing 2 or 3 spears bunched together before they would open upon the return of cooler temperatures. 

[LJG]

Jim, 2000 meters is just over 6000 feet. Not being nit picky, just that the extra 1000 feet matters in the tropics. 6000 feet is still warm, you get to 7000, and it gets noticeably cooler quickly. This form of Undata cuts out just over 6000 feet in the areas of the western finger of the Andes we were. At about 7000 feet to find Ceroxylon quindiuense to give you some perspective. We had the pleasure of experiencing all this with the last IPS Biennial. 

Something interesting, the form of Undata that does grow at a higher altitude is a really cool one that use to be called Geonoma weberbaueri until it was lumped into Undata with a few others. That is the one Darold said he killed a flat of. I could see it not wanting any real heat or drying out. 

Sorry I can’t help with cultivation as I’ve never had the chance to grow one. Stoked you got some to pop. None of the seed I brought back from Colombia germinated and it all rotted eventually. Same with the Geonoma weberbaueri seed I brought back. One thing to point out, the area where your seed was collected doesn’t get the super red crown shaft like Darold’s plants. Those were found in a completely separate area closer to Medellin than Cali - where this seed from RPS I’m pretty sure came from. I think Darold’s plants came from seed from Ecuador. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

15 minutes ago, LJG said:

Jim, 2000 meters is just over 6000 feet. Not being nit picky, just that the extra 1000 feet matters in the tropics. 6000 feet is still warm, you get to 7000, and it gets noticeably cooler quickly. This form of Undata cuts out just over 6000 feet. At about 7000 feet to find Ceroxylon quindiuense to give you some perspective. We had the pleasure of experiencing all this with the last IPS Biennial. 

Something interesting, the form of Undata that does grow at a higher altitude is a really cool one that use to be called Geonoma weberbaueri until it was lumped into Undata with a few others. That is the one Darold said he killed a flat of. I could see it not wanting any real heat or drying out. 

Sorry I can’t help with cultivation as I’ve never had the chance to grow one. Stocked you got some to pop. None of the seed I brought back from Colombia germinated and it all rotted eventually. Same with the Geonoma weberbaueri seed I brought back. One thing to point out, the area where your seed was collected doesn’t get the super red crown shaft like Darold’s plants. Those were found in a completely separate area closer to Medellin than Cali - where this seed from RPS I’m pretty sure came from. I think Darold’s plants came from seed from Ecuador. 

6,561’ = 2,000 meters but I was just rounding figures. These seeds were collected above 7,000 feet according to Jeff Marcus who collected them. They’re not RPS stock. I guess I’ll just have to wait and see how they handle my climate. I’m 45 miles south of Darold but that’s enough to make for a different climate. 

Jeff told me that the mother tree had lots of red in its crownshaft but not to the degree of Darold’s.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Jim in Los Altos

[Darold Petty]

My red form of G. undata comes from a very localized, small area in southern Ecuador at an elevation of about 8200 feet ASL. It is right along the Pan American highway near the border with Peru.  It is so easy to access this population that one could get there with just my verbal directions.  I made a special trip there 3 years ago, but the timing was wrong, no seed at all. The forest is in good condition there, with lots of the palms.  If anyone is planning a trip to Ecuador you can contact me for explicit directions.

Here is a photo of the intact forest, featuring Ceroxylon vogelianum.  Sorry, I don't have a good photo of the Geonoma.

[Jim in Los Altos]

4 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

My red form of G. undata comes from a very localized, small area in southern Ecuador at an elevation of about 8200 feet ASL. It is right along the Pan American highway near the border with Peru.  It is so easy to access this population that one could get there with just my verbal directions.  I made a special trip there 3 years ago, but the timing was wrong, no seed at all. The forest is in good condition there, with lots of the palms.  If anyone is planning a trip to Ecuador you can contact me for explicit directions.

Here is a photo of the intact forest, featuring Ceroxylon vogelianum.  Sorry, I don't have a good photo of the Geonoma.

Wow, that’s really dense. 

[Darold Petty]

1 minute ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Wow, that’s really dense. 

Here is the actual Inca Trail, still in use by the locals as they walk up to the Bus Stop on the highway.  Step off the trail and a machete is necessary ! 

[Jim in Los Altos]

2 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Here is the actual Inca Trail, still in use by the locals as they walk up to the Bus Stop on the highway.  Step off the trail and a machete is necessary ! 

Truly cloud forest climate it appears. 

[LJG]

 

1 hour ago, Darold Petty said:

My red form of G. undata comes from a very localized, small area in southern Ecuador at an elevation of about 8200 feet ASL. It is right along the Pan American highway near the border with Peru.  It is so easy to access this population that one could get there with just my verbal directions.  I made a special trip there 3 years ago, but the timing was wrong, no seed at all. The forest is in good condition there, with lots of the palms.  If anyone is planning a trip to Ecuador you can contact me for explicit directions.

Here is a photo of the intact forest, featuring Ceroxylon vogelianum.  Sorry, I don't have a good photo of the Geonoma.

Nice shot Darold. 8200 feet is up there. I recall Rodrigo Bernal mentioning that Undata can be found growing at over 10,000 in some areas. When you are up at those elevations, the palms just seem much more difficult for us to grow here in SoCal. C vogelianum and C parvifrons for example. The C vogelianum I have growing from the seed you sent me (thanks again) grow great in winter. Once the high heat of summer hits, they suffer. Some go from happy to dead in days. This is why I was excited to get the seed of the red crownshaft G undata that’s found at lower elevations on the western finger of the Andes in Colombia. I have a feeling it would have a better chance here. 

[LJG]

1 hour ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

6,561’ = 2,000 meters but I was just rounding figures. These seeds were collected above 7,000 feet according to Jeff Marcus who collected them. They’re not RPS stock. I guess I’ll just have to wait and see how they handle my climate. I’m 45 miles south of Darold but that’s enough to make for a different climate. 

Jeff told me that the mother tree had lots of red in its crownshaft but not to the degree of Darold’s.

I took photos of the ones in the region Jeff and I each saw them (first pic). They were not as red as Darold's as you can see. They were very abundant, and some specimens could get quite reddish-pink, but never solid red like Darold's. Also, like Darold mentioned, the really red ones are "very localized". It appears true in Colombia as well. But worth finding as pic2 shows. 

Sorry to be pulling this off topic, but I find it interesting.

[richnorm]

The roots on these are very fibrous - bit like a tree fern - so individual pots may be preferential and also a relatively large one. You cannot miss a single watering.  Absolute thrip magnets so want to see a bit of weather.  Hard work if you want to keep them at their best.  If you want to experiment with a heat mat it may be better to put them in a clear plastic bag so they cannot dry out.  Good luck!

[Darold Petty]

Richnorm is correct about the root texture and volume.  When I imported my three plants from Dick Endt the small plants would barely fit into a "1-gallon" cylindrical pot.

(15cmx18cm  or  6x7 inches.) 

[LJG]

Darold, how about some new pics of your palms? :)

[Darold Petty]

Yes to this suggestion.  The color now is not so vivid, and is much more muted.  I am super busy today, but will post no later than Tuesday.

(No smartphone, so I must use point&shoot pocket camera, then upload to desktop PC)  

[LJG]

1 hour ago, Darold Petty said:

Yes to this suggestion.  The color now is not so vivid, and is much more muted.  I am super busy today, but will post no later than Tuesday.

(No smartphone, so I must use point&shoot pocket camera, then upload to desktop PC)  

Thanks. 

Does color change with seasons?

[Gary]

here is the biggest stand of the ones at Dick Endts place.While they set a few seeds I haven't managed to germinate any.

[DiegoGM]

I ordered 1 month ago some seeds form RPS of Geonoma Undata "Red", from ecuador. I plant it 2 weeks ago in organitc, well drained soil. They are at constant 70-75 degrees. What do you think? Thats a correct temperature or it is too warm?

[realarch]

Good luck Jim!

Darold, those habitat photos bring back South American jungle foray memories. Pure heaven.

Len, excellent photographs!

Tim 

[Jim in Los Altos]

Such a fascinating palm. I've never been so hopeful of success with raising seedlings as I am with this species. So far they're doing great but it's winter of course. I'll NEVER let them dry out as suggested. Any other suggestions or comments would be appreciated. I really want these to survive and prosper!

[Darold Petty]

Ok, sorry for the delay.  Here are recent photos of my Geonoma undata, Dick Endt provenance.  I planted these palms in year 2001.  The color is not so bright now as when the palms were young.  The pinkish color is exposed at first then darkens to maroon at maturity and to chocolate as the frond dies from old age.  The petioles hold their color better throughout the frond lifespan. 

Don't get too excited about the spathes, they are surely not viable and likely won't even open ! 

[LJG]

Looks awesome Darold. Wish I had one in my garden. 

[TomJ]

Amazing colors still !!  well done.

Nice to see that they are possible in our State somewhere.

Good luck Jim.

[realarch]

For relatively new members here on Palmtalk, Darold's Geonoma is one, of only a handful, of iconic palms on this board. 

Only a few palms ever develop such a legacy. Even admiring it from afar, it belongs to all of us.

Tim

[happypalms]

On 12/3/2018 at 3:39 PM, Jim in Los Altos said:

I’ve got these young Geonoma undata seedlings from seed collected at an elevation just over 7,000’ (about 2,000 meters) in Columbia and I have them in a shady location outside at ground level and am wondering if a heat mat would be beneficial to them. My December-January typical high-low temperatures are between 65-40F. Would adding 15 to 20F degrees to their soil, particularly at night, be good or not? Darold, I bet you know. 

 

On 12/3/2018 at 3:39 PM, Jim in Los Altos said:

I’ve got these young Geonoma undata seedlings from seed collected at an elevation just over 7,000’ (about 2,000 meters) in Columbia and I have them in a shady location outside at ground level and am wondering if a heat mat would be beneficial to them. My December-January typical high-low temperatures are between 65-40F. Would adding 15 to 20F degrees to their soil, particularly at night, be good or not? Darold, I bet you know. 

Hi Jim just scored a batch of seeds of this palm, my question is what temperature did you germinate them at thanks.

[tim_brissy_13]

1 hour ago, happypalms said:

 

Hi Jim just scored a batch of seeds of this palm, my question is what temperature did you germinate them at thanks.

Richard I germinated a batch a couple of years ago. I can say even 25C was too warm. They only started sprouting when I removed them from heat completely. Indoors over winter about 15 sprouted at around 18-22C. 

Wish I had’ve read this thread before giving them a go. I’ve got a couple left hanging onto life, but I’ve figured out along the way and possibly too late that they like it constantly damp. Even with the bottom of the pots sitting in standard water. @Jonathan this thread is worth a read.