U.S. ebay sellers shipping seeds and seedlings around the world realistic?

[SoulofthePlace]

U.S. ebay sellers shipping palm seeds and seedlings around the world (offering no certificates for safe import) realistic or waste of money?

I want to buy rare seeds from USA and have them FEDEX shipped to the E.U. Do you think they will make it here? I have heard that FEDEX has its own Customs department and that Fedex shipments do not go through the government Customs. Is this true? How can the seeds be safely declared (what wording to use?) to be on the safe side? Thank you.

Edited November 1, 2018 by SoulofthePlace

[Bigfish]

I’ve sent seeds to the EU through USPS with no problems.  Russia and China are a gamble.  

[NatureGirl]

Well, I don't know about FED EX but I've been using the USPS for well over 10yrs or more.First you have to be sure your Country allows Palm Seed to be imported. If you are importing large amounts of seeds over 4lbs you usually need a Phyto certificate OR Import License. But I only send small packages, so I only need a simple Customs form. The main thing is to simply (and honestly) declare what you are sending( because the Seller is the one who is subject to prosecution for fraud). For example :  Palm Seeds.......Genus: Areca....Species: lutescens. Then they'll want Quantity: 100 and $ amount and Weight.  It's pretty easy for small amounts. I have Never had a package confiscated or lost. 

 

[SoulofthePlace]

Azores (Portugal) Customs give one two choices if seeds are sent even in small amounts:

a) Ask them to return the seeds to the sender

Ask them to destroy the seeds

I am not sure whether Azores Customs are separate (extra) from Portugal or are Portuguese Customs. They say Azores are part of Portugal although are called Autonomous Region. I am not sure whether it is autonomous regarding Customs rules.

In a case of rare and very expensive seeds and expensive delivery it is a bad loss. That's why I asked. Using Fedex may be necessary for time sensitive seeds or for seeds that are germinated or may germinate on their way. Via USPS it may take a month or longer to arrive.

In the Portuguese Customs rules it says "plant material" not allowed. Seeds are not mentioned. Yet no one in the US offers a "phyto certificate". Some species are unavailable in the EU so must import.

That does not mean anything invasive is ordered and always making sure the seeds are free of disease, insects and clean before growing them in pots.
I don't import large amounts, only collector amounts of 5 seeds to maximum 20 or 30 seeds. Somertimes must purchase 20 seeds to make sure 3-5 seeds germinate and 2-3 seedlings make to adulthood.

[PalmatierMeg]

Years ago shipping to Europe was relatively inexpensive ($3-$4) for a 1 oz packet of seeds. Now a 1 oz packet costs $14-$15 in US postage. Almost no one wants to pay that amount for shipping. Also, some countries' customs, i.e., UK, don't seem concerned about a packet of seeds. Other countries will seize them in a heartbeat. I've had such bad luck shipping to Italy (seeds seized, destroyed, held for "ransom") that I refuse to ship to there at all. I don't know about the Azores but sounds like it would be a tough go. My buyers have asked me to lie about the contents and say I'm shipping seashells but now I have to fill in declarations right on the US Customs website to the US Gov't which keeps a digital copy forever. I'm not about to lie. I was outright threatened with prosecution when a Central American palm friend sent me seeds without customs paperwork and US Customs seized them.

Bottom line: it's not worth the risk and expense for me to ship seeds overseas. Sad but true

[Moose]

Risky, risky

[edbrown_III]

well put Moose --- ye are signing your name to a customs declaration ------ ominous warning 5 years or 10 k-----some countries uniformly seize them some are more lenient . 

[John in Andalucia]

 

  On 11/2/2018 at 12:55 PM, SoulofthePlace said:

In the Portuguese Customs rules it says "plant material" not allowed. Seeds are not mentioned. Yet no one in the US offers a "phyto certificate". Some species are unavailable in the EU so must import.
 

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Here's an interesting EU Regulation coming into force for next year: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-16-4310_en.htm

Under the term, 'plants/plant products' it includes seeds.

From experience, if the value of your purchase is exempt from paying import tax, then small packets don't generally get flagged for inspection, and if they're soil and pest free there shouldn't be an issue either.

I wouldn't bother with FedEx. They won't expedite your happiness. 

[KjellP]

I have bought seeds from the US. No problems with the swedish customs at all. Package was sent with USPS and there was a declaration of the contents giving the names of the species and the cost of the seeds. 

[Cikas]

I got seeds from USA here in Croatia (EU member country) multiple times without any problem. 

[SoulofthePlace]

Perfect.

[Shoowow]

If seeds come with phitosanitary certificate you should be able to get them. Customs in the Azores are the same as the rest of Portugal and very strict. 

[PalmatierMeg]

  On 12/23/2018 at 5:41 PM, Shoowow said:

If seeds come with phitosanitary certificate you should be able to get them. Customs in the Azores are the same as the rest of Portugal and very strict. 

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Problem with that is most of us who sell seeds are hobby growers not professionals. For us, meeting strict gov't criteria for issuing phytosanitary certificates requires gov't oversight, inspections with possible fines, record-keeping, permits, taxes, detailed paperwork and $$$$ in expenses. No seeds are worth those headaches.

[Shoowow]

I agree, but with all the plagues and invasives we have here I can understand why they have the rules in place.

[SoulofthePlace]

  On 12/23/2018 at 5:41 PM, Shoowow said:

If seeds come with phitosanitary certificate you should be able to get them. Customs in the Azores are the same as the rest of Portugal and very strict. 

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Strict is good. I hope no snakes will pass through Portuguese Azorean Customs.

[palmad Merc]

For seed's coming into Australia

This is the requirement for: permitted seeds for sowing.

https://bicon.agriculture.gov.au/BiconWeb4.0/ImportConditions/Conditions?EvaluatableElementId=324806&Path=UNDEFINED&UserContext=External&EvaluationStateId=be7289f0-6979-4b44-80d9-6806042e7777&CaseElementPk=939693&EvaluationPhase=ImportDefinition&HasAlerts=False&HasChangeNotices=False&IsAEP=False

If you read from NOTES: down

 

[NC_Palms]

Most of my seeds I buy on eBay come from other Southeastern states. I like buying local but in rare occasions I will buy from Europe if I can’t find what I want here. Like when I bought juniper seeds from Spain. 

I also sell on eBay, but I only sell within the United States and it’s territories. I can only keep up with American laws and customs.

[PalmatierMeg]

  On 12/23/2018 at 6:19 PM, Shoowow said:

I agree, but with all the plagues and invasives we have here I can understand why they have the rules in place.

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No question. FL is up to its eyeballs in invasive animals, plants and diseases.

[palmad Merc]

Bottom line is if you are sending seeds, check what the laws are in doing so.

Follow the guide lines.

Declare them, don't hide them.

If people really want the seed, they will pay for any outgoings, eg phytosanitary cert.

Of course it is a risk if you send them any other way, otherwise you're fine.

[SoulofthePlace]

  On 12/23/2018 at 10:18 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

No question. FL is up to its eyeballs in invasive animals, plants and diseases.

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I get the idea now why after 5 months in FL I had to run away from there. Apartments and even the ERs are overrun by dangerous mold, the outdoor air stinks like mold, floods everywhere most of the time, driving around in the mild 30C with a/c on still makes me blush and become sick even walking outdoors seems impossible. Very cold and windy 60F with wind feels arctic in Florida Keys and then the next day is 100% humidity with mold and 80F in winter and feel immediately like vomiting. Let alone visiting The Compound in Port Malabar near Palm Bay which has the spooky feeling. Palm Beach, with all the grass cut off feels much cleaner in the air. Azores with high humidity and (but) moderate temps is like Florida taken off steroids. Much better. Wonder what Madeira and the Canarias feels to live at?

Edited December 23, 2018 by SoulofthePlace

[PalmatierMeg]

FL doesn't suit everyone, esp. if you've never experienced an East Coast North American climate. Most people that haven't never take to the place. I, and millions of people like me, grew up with sweltering hot, rainy summers we get here and survived them quite well - I didn't have a/c when I was a kid. We also survived equally harsh winters that were cold, damp and often rainy/snowy. From summer highs to winter lows, temperature swings of 100+ degrees F are quite common.

Now I live in FL my yearly temperature swing is a much more manageable 55-60 degrees F. If someone wants to grow truly tropical palms in the US, this is the place to be. Otherwise, I'd live somewhere that put my comfort above that of my palms. And ditch my husband who vows never to move from here unless in a pine box.

[SoulofthePlace]

  On 12/23/2018 at 11:33 PM, palmad Merc said:

Bottom line is if you are sending seeds, check what the laws are in doing so.

Follow the guide lines.

Declare them, don't hide them.

If people really want the seed, they will pay for any outgoings, eg phytosanitary cert.

Of course it is a risk if you send them any other way, otherwise you're fine.

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If you hide the seeds well, there's a high chance you will receive them, but it is your responsibility to not infect your place with alien bacteria, bugs and diseases. If you declare the seeds most likely than not you will never see them again although Portuguese Customs are kind enough to offer Return-to-Sender (or destroy) service for your seeds. For example how can Washingtonia robusta seeds hurt any country? What is much worse when a conspiracy spraying aluminium, barium, strontium etc. powder,  in trillions of tonnes exists and you are not even aware of it and getting your nervous system damaged while your tax monewy is used to poison you with it. It is called "chemical trails". Look it up, do your own research and stay away from online shills.

[SoulofthePlace]

  On 12/23/2018 at 11:55 PM, PalmatierMeg said:

FL doesn't suit everyone, esp. if you've never experienced an East Coast North American climate. Most people that haven't never take to the place. I, and millions of people like me, grew up with sweltering hot, rainy summers we get here and survived them quite well - I didn't have a/c when I was a kid. We also survived equally harsh winters that were cold, damp and often rainy/snowy. From summer highs to winter lows, temperature swings of 100+ degrees F are quite common.

Now I live in FL my yearly temperature swing is a much more manageable 55-60 degrees F. If someone wants to grow truly tropical palms in the US, this is the place to be. Otherwise, I'd live somewhere that put my comfort above that of my palms. And ditch my husband who vows never to move from here unless in a pine box.

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55-60F year round would be bearable comfortable, but not perfect. I prefer 62-65F instead. If I had to chose one temp 247/365 I would choose 64F with enough sunshine. Unfortunately in Florida 55-60F does not stay long unless in autumn and spring and it can dip to 30F  and in NFL down to 10F or 15F illing crop and palms and while only i the souther third of FL you can enjoy 30F and above, but it often gets 90F to 110F with 100% humidity. Still, Florida is quite a nice place to live. Just stay away from Central Florida and especially places such as Frostproof... hahaha. I went to visist Key West and was disappointed it had nothing special to offer, only a tourist trap, but if you oiwn a substantial piece of land you can grow all kinds of palms there, at least until a hurricane destroys them. And North FL has got freezing temps, so it's only good to grow Sabals and Washingtonias, which is already improvement from NC coast. Even Washingtonias only survive mostly 26F and up (long term). Below 26F Washongtonia robusta burns fronds and looks bad despite nurseries (usually lacking profesionalsim) sell them as 15F hardy plants. And NoFL gets freezes below 15F just like Columbia, SC. I now live 38 degrees from Equator (just like Indianapolis or DC) but in 5 years spent here yet to experience temps below 45F (or above 83F). Year round average is 63F a bit higher than Florida's?

Regarding ditching a loved one, isn't the love meant to be for sticking together no matter what? Except in the advanced west, I suppose. :-)

[Estlander]

  On 12/23/2018 at 11:36 PM, SoulofthePlace said:

I get the idea now why after 5 months in FL I had to run away from there. Apartments and even the ERs are overrun by dangerous mold, the outdoor air stinks like mold, floods everywhere most of the time, driving around in the mild 30C with a/c on still makes me blush and become sick even walking outdoors seems impossible. Very cold and windy 60F with wind feels arctic in Florida Keys and then the next day is 100% humidity with mold and 80F in winter and feel immediately like vomiting. Let alone visiting The Compound in Port Malabar near Palm Bay which has the spooky feeling. Palm Beach, with all the grass cut off feels much cleaner in the air. Azores with high humidity and (but) moderate temps is like Florida taken off steroids. Much better. Wonder what Madeira and the Canarias feels to live at?

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Yes, temps in the 60’s are certainly more humane, lol. I personally love the tropical heat and humidity here. And I love how the heat and humidity makes the air smell in FL.  Always love it when I get off the plane and get blasted with that humid air.

And thanks to all that heat and humidity the waters around FL get to around 86-93F here. Nothing better than being in crystal clear water that’s 90F. That’s something you never get to experience in the Azores, Madeira and the Canaries. 

Was in Tenerife in August (the hottest month there), and the water was only 22-23C with 24C being the highest it ever gets there due to the cold ocean currents surrounding the islands, which are also keeping the Canaries from getting too hot. 

My August night time temperatures are the the same and higher than daytime highs in Tenerife in August, which is 28C.

But, at the same time, all three above mentioned places thanks to being islands, also don’t get very cold in the winter. 

Florida has none of the protections in place that prevent other places in the same latitudes of the world from getting severe cold snaps. Being connected to a very cold and relatively flat continent on it’s eastern half that reaches all the way to the Arctic, really messes things up for us down here.  

Look at the Bahamas, for an example. Whenever Florida experiences a cold snap with temperatures down to the 40’s in Miami, the Bahamas, whic are only a very short distance away, stay around 70F. 

I probably wouldn’t change what i have here for perhaps stable but, at the same time, year around cool temperatures of the Azores with cool ocean temperatures. 

I can’t give up all this below:      

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Estlander

[Estlander]

  On 12/24/2018 at 12:53 AM, SoulofthePlace said:

Washingtonias only survive mostly 26F and up (long term). Below 26F Washongtonia robusta burns fronds and looks bad despite nurseries (usually lacking profesionalsim) sell them as 15F hardy plants.

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You’re exaggerating a bit. W. Robusta laughs at 26F.  Robusta fronds start burning at 19F if it stays at that temp. for too long. Couple of hours at 19F don’t hurt them at all. New Orleans and Houston went down to 19F last January and I don’t remember reading about any Robusta fatalities in either city. There were even Queens that survived. 

26F is not enough to defoliate a Majesty palm, let alone a W. Robusta.  

15F is certainly critical for them and they completely defoliate, but totally survivable if it’s brief. 

[SoulofthePlace]

  On 12/24/2018 at 3:45 AM, Estlander said:

You’re exaggerating a bit. W. Robusta laughs at 26F.  Robusta fronds start burning at 19F if it stays at that temp. for too long. Couple of hours at 19F don’t hurt them at all. New Orleans and Houston went down to 19F last January and I don’t remember reading about any Robusta fatalities in either city. There were even Queens that survived. 

26F is not enough to defoliate a Majesty palm, let alone a W. Robusta.  

15F is certainly critical for them and they completely defoliate, but totally survivable if it’s brief. 

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It's just my experiemce growing robusta on the East Coast in SC and at 26F the frond tips browned a bit, perhaps it stayed longer at 26F than yours and also may have been higher humidity or wind and snow. Also, if it stays 26F at night then 30F during the day and then 26F at night again it's going to make the difference.

My robustas survived 3 years and then got killed by a one or two cold nights down to probably  12F or even 10F while I was in Key West which had cold wind and 60F. Of course out West robustas will survive colder tewmps due to lower humidity and more heat during the day due to lower latitudersa of N.O. and Houston.

How about wind damage to robustas? Do their fronds get messed up and broken from wind? Mine got badly messed up and broken from wind this fall and winter.

[SoulofthePlace]

  On 12/24/2018 at 3:11 AM, Estlander said:

Yes, temps in the 60’s are certainly more humane, lol. I personally love the tropical heat and humidity here. And I love how the heat and humidity makes the air smell in FL.  Always love it when I get off the plane and get blasted with that humid air.

And thanks to all that heat and humidity the waters around FL get to around 86-93F here. Nothing better than being in crystal clear water that’s 90F. That’s something you never get to experience in the Azores, Madeira and the Canaries. 

Was in Tenerife in August (the hottest month there), and the water was only 22-23C with 24C being the highest it ever gets there due to the cold ocean currents surrounding the islands, which are also keeping the Canaries from getting too hot. 

My August night time temperatures are the the same and higher than daytime highs in Tenerife in August, which is 28C.

But, at the same time, all three above mentioned places thanks to being islands, also don’t get very cold in the winter. 

Florida has none of the protections in place that prevent other places in the same latitudes of the world from getting severe cold snaps. Being connected to a very cold and relatively flat continent on it’s eastern half that reaches all the way to the Arctic, really messes things up for us down here.  

Look at the Bahamas, for an example. Whenever Florida experiences a cold snap with temperatures down to the 40’s in Miami, the Bahamas, whic are only a very short distance away, stay around 70F. 

I probably wouldn’t change what i have here for perhaps stable but, at the same time, year around cool temperatures of the Azores with cool ocean temperatures. 

I can’t give up all this below:      

 

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Florida is like Australia: nice around beaches, not so pretty and flat inland. I like what humans have achieved in Florida with all the landscaping with palms and one can even find some attractive buildings in between. It makes a nice drive around FL in some areas. Some people like high heat plus high humidity and some can't even survive it.

 

[Kailua_Krish]

  On 12/24/2018 at 3:28 PM, SoulofthePlace said:

Florida is like Australia: nice around beaches, not so pretty and flat inland. I like what humans have achieved in Florida with all the landscaping with palms and one can even find some attractive buildings in between. It makes a nice drive around FL in some areas. Some people like high heat plus high humidity and some can't even survive it.

 

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To each their own. There are some really beautiful places inland in Florida if you know where to look. Even living in Hawaii I miss Florida quite a bit.

[Estlander]

Thank god for A/C. Love the heat and humidity but not when I’m trying to sleep.  

[Estlander]

  On 12/24/2018 at 3:24 PM, SoulofthePlace said:

How about wind damage to robustas? Do their fronds get messed up and broken from wind? Mine got badly messed up and broken from wind this fall and winter.

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They do fine in hurricanes. The ones around here and Panama City Beach look fine after the devastating hurricane Michael. Even in Panama City, which took a direct hit with category 5 hurricane, they look ok as can be seen on this pic I took of some of the damage there. 

Maybe they don’t do so well in icy conditions with heavy wind. No sure about that. 

[Estlander]

[SoulofthePlace]

  On 12/24/2018 at 5:45 PM, Estlander said:

Thank god for A/C. Love the heat and humidity but not when I’m trying to sleep.  

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I went to ER in FL three times - seriously sick from especially toxic mold in the A/C vents somewhere deep and the corrupt mgmt. and the FL government shuffled my request to repair the a/c unit, so no a/c in 105F heat + 100% humidity, plus the place was flooding all the time. It was hard to get hit with a $2500 fine and fake accusation of damage to the apt.  and for breaking the lease. Absolutely corrupt place. Had to move out. Of course, Palm Beach and other First World places are probably fine to live. Not everyone can survive high heat and humidity. I don't know what is wrong with Floodrida but driving around in an airconditioned car in a quite mild 86F had my face flush and go into panic attack. Am originally from a cold climate, so a constant mid 60s F is very good for me. It must be beautiful to have a winter house there, but once a hurricane hits if you are deep in the south in the FL getting out of there driving north could be an issue. And instead of boarding up homeowners homes with veneer why not install beautiful persianas, shutters (aluminum). Every time hurricane hits one has to damage his house with large nails shutting it with ugly board. Just close the beautiful strong shutters as it takes just a few minutes, and leave. Those who can't afford shutters, should not own a house. All the poverty stricken Azoreans have shutters on their homes. The local income by 90% of population is around US$600 per month, but pensionis around $400. Now tell me few can afford shutters in Florida.

Edited December 24, 2018 by SoulofthePlace

[SoulofthePlace]

  On 12/24/2018 at 6:03 PM, Estlander said:

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The remaining WR seems to have a cracked or broken trunk in the middle. My WR has several fronds broken at the end of petioles from a regular wind (maybe up to 35-50 mph winds), not hurricane winds. Half of the crown is busted and looks halved down. In your photo looks like a couple robustas are down on the ground and one barely standing probably supported by another tree's branch. The ones that really withstand strong winds are CIDP and Cuban palms. Does Bismarckia withstand winds well? Mine has some fronds half broken but it's still small. I think Hyophorbe lagenicaulis should do fine in winds as well. Florida long term residents must know well all the palm types that survive hurricans incuding the tropical ones. Would be nice to see more of such photos.

Edited December 24, 2018 by SoulofthePlace

[SoulofthePlace]

  On 12/24/2018 at 3:39 PM, krishnaraoji88 said:

To each their own. There are some really beautiful places inland in Florida if you know where to look. Even living in Hawaii I miss Florida quite a bit.

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Yes, I know, I enjoyed driving around during cooler weather and seeing some attractive mansions, landscaping, and even some average people have made their yards beautiful, especialy by the water somewhere. Florda is beautiful in general and in many places, no doubt. It just I haven't seen anything of interest inland, I must have went to all the wrong places.

[Estlander]

  On 12/24/2018 at 8:11 PM, SoulofthePlace said:

My WR has several fronds broken at the end of petioles from a regular wind (maybe up to 35-50 mph winds), not hurricane winds. Half of the crown is busted and looks halved down. In your photo looks like a couple robustas are down on the ground and one barely standing probably supported by another tree's branch. The ones that really withstand strong winds are CIDP and Cuban palms. Does Bismarckia withstand winds well? Mine has some fronds half broken but it's still small. I think Hyophorbe lagenicaulis should do fine in winds as well. Florida long term residents must know well all the palm types that survive hurricans incuding the tropical ones. Would be nice to see more of such photos.

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Sabals did absolutely fine during the hurricane. There are some that have some broken fronds but are otherwise ok. The only Sabals that were down were the ones that had trees fall on them. 

[Estlander]

[Estlander]

[Estlander]

[SoulofthePlace]

It's bad. Sorry to see so many trees down. The roof of that house must have been specially rerinforced for hurricanes, but the seemingly concrete wall were not? If one builds a light house in Florida it gets destroyed by wind. If one builds a house with 3 ft. thick walls from stones or concrete and a steel or reinforced concrete roof it will probably sink into the soil. I would still build a very sturdy house in Florida if I was going to live there. It would be very small but very strong and very cool or warm inside. Most people I talked to said they can't afford to buid strong homes. Can't they afford shutters? Build a smaller but stronger house. It pays.

[Estlander]

New homes being built in Florida should now be able to withstand a cat. 5 hurricane. Impact proof windows are also a requirement. If you have no impact proof windows, shutters are certainly a good idea.

If you're looking to build, you can choose whether you want a brick/block home or wooden frame home. Whatever you choose it's gonna be built by the existing building codes which are much stricter than what they used to be.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/08/10/hurricane-andrew-florida-building-codes-weakened/490364001/

Over the next decade, state leaders studied construction standards, negotiated with home builders, and finally, unveiled a statewide, mandatory building code that took effect in 2002.

The lessons of Andrew drove many of the building code changes. Inspectors now had to approve building plans and sign off on all phases of new construction. The entire "building envelope" of a home — every window, door, skylight or any point that could let in wind — had to undergo testing and approval.