Livistona mullerii

Livistona australis

Two unknown Livistona species, maybe hybrids?  The lower one is fast growing, the upper one is slow.   

 

I think these are Livistona mariae.  We have 3 in our collection but one is still really small.  They are so slow to get going, but once they get some size, they just zoom along. I wish these were more common in the trade. 

Livistona decora are rocket fast here, as fast as Queen palms, but much prettier (IMO).  And they have fewer issues with pests.  One of our oldest L decora has set seed this year.  Thats a first for our garden.  We probably have 20 L decora on property, more than any other palm species.  I do have to admit though, when they transition from juvenile to adult they go through an ugly duckling stage.  This one is still young and pretty.  Hasn't reached ugly duck stage yet.

18 minutes ago, Keith in SoJax said:

I think these are Livistona mariae.  We have 3 in our collection but one is still really small.  They are so slow to get going, but once they get some size, they just zoom along. I wish these were more common in the trade. 

Keith did you happen to pick these up at a CFPACS meeting? I'm Just wondering if these came from me. Also I can't agree with you more about mariae and rigida being under utilized in central and parts of north Florida. Beautiful, well grown plants Keith.

Mike, I probably did get them from a CFPACS meeting....  I know I did not purchase them all at the same time though.  Do you have more?  The hurricane didn't faze them, and neither has the frost.  

Lovely selection of Livistonas, Keith. They are great palms for your area.

3 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Lovely selection of Livistonas, Keith. They are great palms for your area.

Meg, I got my first L Muelleri  from you.  You donated it to IPS when they were doing a fund raiser.  I bid $30, and won so then I came down and picked it up.  It’s still alive but grows slowly.  I planted it where it would have plenty of water but now i’m Wondering if it’s too wet.  It looks healthy, just slow.  The one in the photo might have been a bit larger when I bought it too.  The planting site is also drier.  

L. muelleri is indeed slow. My two that I grew from seeds are only about 3' tall and years from  trunking. Compared to L. decora, australis and mariae they are slow as snails. Both get full sun on my garden lot.

Every year they keep looking better!

What beauties! Makes me want to try livistonas again. I planted a 5g L. Nitida a few years back but didn't make it through its first winter. 

Do you have any Nitida's Keith?  If so please post pic's :) 

 

Unlike your experience with livistona Mariae, my Mariae/Decora hybrid have been growing at high speed.  It has been in the ground for over two years (planted as a 1 gallon palm) and now is getting some good size to it.  Perhaps hybridization is the key.  I also have a pure Mariae, but I haven't had it long enough to know how fast it is going to be.

Livistona Rigida is supposed to be genetically similar to Livistona Mariae too.  I have a Rigida growing in deep shade that has been pretty slow under such conditions.  It is dwarfed by the livistona decora right beside it, even though both were planted at the same time.  If my livistona Rigida has been planted in the ground for four-five years now, is it too late to transplant it without killing it?  I should probably move it to a sunnier location where it can thrive and grow more quickly.  Advice?

On 8/12/2018, 2:16:53, James760 said:

What beauties! Makes me want to try livistonas again. I planted a 5g L. Nitida a few years back but didn't make it through its first winter. 

Do you have any Nitida's Keith?  If so please post pic's

 

James, I do have a little experience with L. nitida.  This hasn't been a fast grower for me.  Climatically, I think its perfectly suited to central FL, but it must be native to an area with better soil.  I sowed the seeds back in 2011, so they are 7 years old.  This is often listed as a very fast growing Livistona, but compared to L decora, it isn't even close.  If I could find some in decent size pots, I'd plant more and see if they were faster when grown from larger plants.

Here is my largest plant, it is 57" (145 cm) high to tip of the tallest frond.     It seems to suffer some of the same problems one gets on young Washingtonia robusta...(leaf spots, etc). This summer it seems to have begun growing faster though. I hope this is a good sign.  I think the rain is at least partly responsible.  

 

Here is my smaller plant, its 37" (90 cm) tall to its highest frond tip.  It's the same age as the larger one.  Somehow I got the photo cockeyed.  

18 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Unlike your experience with livistona Mariae, my Mariae/Decora hybrid have been growing at high speed.  It has been in the ground for over two years (planted as a 1 gallon palm) and now is getting some good size to it.  Perhaps hybridization is the key.  I also have a pure Mariae, but I haven't had it long enough to know how fast it is going to be.

Livistona Rigida is supposed to be genetically similar to Livistona Mariae too.  I have a Rigida growing in deep shade that has been pretty slow under such conditions.  It is dwarfed by the livistona decora right beside it, even though both were planted at the same time.  If my livistona Rigida has been planted in the ground for four-five years now, is it too late to transplant it without killing it?  I should probably move it to a sunnier location where it can thrive and grow more quickly.  Advice?

Sandy Loam, I do think hybridization can result in faster growth & though I'm not sure its universal, I think its fairly common...hence the phrase "hybrid vigor".   I'm always somewhat skeptical about hybridization unless I know someone did it intentionally. But I also understand that when two species with disjunct ranges are planted close together natural hybridization can and does occur (example...Washingtonia).  Whats more, when planted in a foreign climate (in this case Florida), the flowering cycles may synchronize whereas if they were growing in close proximity in situ, their flowering cycles might be offset preventing hybridization (example Sabal minor and Sabal palmetto).  The reason I proposed that the two Livistonas at the beginning of my post could be hybrids is because they don't fit neatly into the descriptions of Livistonas I know, & others (including some of our Aussie palm talkers) have suggested its possible.  I'm a terrible botanist...it bores me to tears... so I haven't got out there and measured them up to see if I can match them to a known species in a Livistona key.  

Regarding transplanting that L mariae...well I'm thinking its a pretty high risk maneuver.  Even mature Livistona sulk when transplanted without root pruning and preparation.  Larger Livistona palms seem to transplant better than small ones.  Its my opinion thats probably due to their ability to store water.  Bigger trees just have much more water than small ones so their leaves don't dehydrate as badly.  Its similar to Sabal palmetto, though I'm not sure Livistona is that sensitive.  

Regarding the botanical view of L. mariae and L. rigida, I think the current belief is that there is strong evidence that they are the same species.  That said, KEW still list both...ugh.  I hate botany!

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2012/03/07/3447620.htm

http://e-monocot.org/?q=livistona+rigida

http://e-monocot.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:668048-1

 

Currently L. rigida has been sunk into L. mariae as L. mariae ssp rigida. And L. mariae is now L. mariae ssp mariae. But there are some botanists who still want both to be just plain L. mariae. There's a lot of different opinions on a lot of different aspects of this issue.

On the matter of Livistonas in wet conditions, most of the Australian ones grow in swampy, or at least seasonally swampy, conditions. L. inermis is about the only one I know of that won't take standing in water. If you look at the habitats of others there's usually a lot of water input.

I have (2) ~20' decora with 8-10' clear trunk and I am disappointed with their drought tolerance and the wind damage from irma.  Lots a shredding due to wind and the dieoff of leaves during drought is not the drought tolerance I thought they would have in my sandy soil.  These were among my most damaged palms in the heavy wind, yet they weren't out in the open.  Palms that did extremely well in the wind/drought were beccariophoenix alfredii, bismarckia, sabals, copernicia alba(not the cubans), BxJ, phoenix rupicola(11' triple, so more wind resistant).  I also have a small somewhat sheltered mariae that was notably better in wind and drought(no damage).

9 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

I have (2) ~20' decora with 8-10' clear trunk and I am disappointed with their drought tolerance and the wind damage from irma.  Lots a shredding due to wind and the dieoff of leaves during drought is not the drought tolerance I thought they would have in my sandy soil.  These were among my most damaged palms in the heavy wind, yet they weren't out in the open.  Palms that did extremely well in the wind/drought were beccariophoenix alfredii, bismarckia, sabals, copernicia alba(not the cubans), BxJ, phoenix rupicola(11' triple, so more wind resistant).  I also have a small somewhat sheltered mariae that was notably better in wind and drought(no damage).

Yea, we had to run irrigation to the L decora too.  This hydrophobic sand is tough for plants native to stream banks and swampy sites.  We’ve found most Non-native species require irrigation on the dry 1/2 of the property, though our Corymbia nad Eucalyptus trees seem to be okay.  On the wetter side of the property most things are okay without irrigation.   None of the Livistona photos come from the dry side.  

My yard is irrigated, but by sprinklers so they are not targeted specifically on palms.  I'd rate the decora as more drought resistant than dypsis pembana, royals or kentiopsis but its really not a great drought resistant palm.  I grew rigida, and mariae in arizona and they were quite tough in the dry as they originate from very dry areas in habitat.  Decora is located in wetter areas in habitat as I understand it.