Relative Hardiness of Phoenix Species

[mjff]

My landscaper claims that P. Sylvestris is the cold hardiest of the Phoenix palms, but the research I have done indicates that P. Canariensis and P. Dactylifera handle cold better.  What have the members here found with the Phoenix palms?

[NBTX11]

Well, the standard answer is Phoenix Canariensis.  This is one true cold tested palm.  These palms are tough as nails and truly cold tested in TX.  When you see mature Canariensis around San Antonio decades old, and then you check the record cold temps that happened in some of the 80s freezes, I don't think there is any question as to the cold hardiness of a CIDP.  The others you see a lot less of (although they are around) so it's slightly harder to judge the hardiness of those.  You can't go wrong with a canariensis.

[KyleNcal]

Here's what the order is supposed to be from cold hardiest to least.

P.theoprastii

P.louierii(many varities from different locations, so hardiness varies)

P.dacterfera(spelled wrong)

P.canariensis

P.sylvestris

P.rupicola

not sure where P.acaulis fits in.

[Alberto]

And P.roebellini has the sa*e hardiness as P.rupi*ola ??? (da*n keyboard!)

[mjff]

Jim, how cold were the 80's freezes?  I moved to TX in 1990 so I missed them.  Are there any P. Dactylifera around that survived those freezes?  I'm leaning towards putting a group of Medjools in one corner of the yard if I can't locate a reasonably priced Jubaea for that spot.  My landscaper has a couple of P. Sylvestris in containers that burned even with the mild winter we just had, but in those little containers I'm sure the cold is a lot harder on them.  He says the Phoenix palms will live here, but look bad most of the time because the leaves burn every year.  Have you found that with them in your area?  The low temps you list for your area look comparable to what we've had those years.  I think last winter we briefly hit 22 for a low, and the year before I don't recall us getting below 27.  The last two years have been wierd though, most years we get at least one cold snap where we stay below freezing for 3-5 days, and I don't think we've had that the last two winters.  Ironically, he his planting W. Robusta all over the place, which I'm pretty sure are less hardy than any of the three Pheonix species I listed.  I'm really hoping they are W. Filifera, and he just calls them Mexican Fan Palms.  He says the leaves will burn, but they come back fast.

Kyle, thanks for the list, that is close to what I thought with the Dactylifera slightly ahead of the Canariensis ahead of the Sylvestris.

[NBTX11]

(mjff @ May 24 2007,19:48)

QUOTE

Jim, how cold were the 80's freezes?  I moved to TX in 1990 so I missed them.  Are there any P. Dactylifera around that survived those freezes?  I'm leaning towards putting a group of Medjools in one corner of the yard if I can't locate a reasonably priced Jubaea for that spot.  My landscaper has a couple of P. Sylvestris in containers that burned even with the mild winter we just had, but in those little containers I'm sure the cold is a lot harder on them.  He says the Phoenix palms will live here, but look bad most of the time because the leaves burn every year.  Have you found that with them in your area?  The low temps you list for your area look comparable to what we've had those years.  I think last winter we briefly hit 22 for a low, and the year before I don't recall us getting below 27.  The last two years have been wierd though, most years we get at least one cold snap where we stay below freezing for 3-5 days, and I don't think we've had that the last two winters.  Ironically, he his planting W. Robusta all over the place, which I'm pretty sure are less hardy than any of the three Pheonix species I listed.  I'm really hoping they are W. Filifera, and he just calls them Mexican Fan Palms.  He says the leaves will burn, but they come back fast.

Kyle, thanks for the list, that is close to what I thought with the Dactylifera slightly ahead of the Canariensis ahead of the Sylvestris.

I wasn't here in the 80s either.  I moved to Tx in 99, before that I lived in FL.  But I have studied the weather records very extensively and am somewhat of a weather geek.  It dropped into the singe digits F in Dec 1989 in San Antonio (around 6F or so I believe), that is basically the last cold weather we have had.  No other real temps below 20F since then.  Areas of North Tx dropped to zero or below in 1989.  

Yes there are other mature Phoenix species around including dactylifera, but 90-95 percent of the mature phoenix around here are canariensis, so that is why I say it is a little harder to judge the others.  Dactylifera is very hardy in it's own right, though.

I disagree that dactylifera is any more hardy, seeing there are 40-50 year old specimens around here and it got as cold as I stated above in 1983/89.

Also, regarding Washingtonias.  Plant W. Filifera in San Angelo.  They should be completely, or as near to completely hardy as you can get for San Angelo.  This should be one of the best palms for your area.  Robustas will burn where a Filifera won't be touched at all in the same cold snap.  Look for the light grey/green fronds, as opposed to the deep dark rich green fronds of the robusta or hybrid.

[jrod]

I'm sure a lot also has to do with climate also.  I would also have to disagree that the dactylifera are more hardy.  There are many canariensis around Las Cruces that look untouched from this winter but some of the dactylifera were burned pretty bad.  But like I said, I'm sure this varies between climates.

[NBTX11]

(jrod @ May 24 2007,23:17)

QUOTE

I'm sure a lot also has to do with climate also.  I would also have to disagree that the dactylifera are more hardy.  There are many canariensis around Las Cruces that look untouched from this winter but some of the dactylifera were burned pretty bad.  But like I said, I'm sure this varies between climates.

We have a much wetter and more humid climate than Las Cruces, and I would still go with canariensis as far as hardiness.  plus, not a lot beats the lush look of a large canariensis.

[mjff]

I like the foliage on the Canariensis, but I've heard the larger ones suffer a high mortality rate shortly after planting, and where they are going to go I need some that are 5+ feet of clear trunk.

In the dry air here I should be able to get dates from the Medjools.  I understand that in humid areas they don't ripen properly.  The fruit is one reason I'm leaning towards the Dactyliferas, but if they are going to burn every year...

The fronds on the Washingtonias I have are dark green, so I guess they are W. Robusta.  At least they are all in areas where they will be easy to replace with Filiferas if/when we have to.  I don't know why he would plant the Robustas instead of the Filiferas here.  Are the Filiferas more expensive?

[NBTX11]

No, Filiferas are no more expensive, they are both relatively inexpensive palms.  Filiferas have thicker trunks, lighter green fronds, and usually a looser arrangement of fronds (less fronds in the crown, more airy).  A lot of what is being sold is actually hybrids, if they told you you have filifera and they look like robusta, you probably have hybrids which is hardier than robusta.

[Neofolis]

Phoenix canariensis is the hardiest of the commonly used palms for the UK climate, as they handle cold and wet, but dactylifera is supposedly hardier in areas with dry winters.  Both seem to be able to handle about -8°C/18°F in otherwise favourable conditions, but I would only class them as safe down to about -6°C/21°F.  Many people have claimed that Theophrasti is more cold hardy than both, but I don't know how much evidence there is to support such claims.  Bearing in mind their natural habitat, I would expect them to be similar to canariensis.  Most of the loureiroi species seem to be tolerant of at least -4°C/25°F, but I don't know how far below that they will survive.  Both sylvestris and rupicola don't seem to be able to handle any lower than -4°C/25°F and, in the case of rupicola survival at that temperature is quite unlikely, it is probably safer down to -2°C/28°F.  Phoenix roebelenii, I'm not really sure about.  Most evidence also points to about -4°C/25°F, but I have known them survive -6°C/21°F in the UK, although I doubt they can survive that year after year in our climate, because there is insufficient recovery time in our short growing seasons.  I don't know much about reclinata, although I suspect similar to sylvestris, maybe slightly lower.  Another species that I have heard astounding stories about is acaulis, but I have been unable to sustantiate any claims made about this species.

Obviously climate, microclimate, other environmental factors and the health of the palm will all effect hardiness, not to mention variability within a species.  I have seen CIDP's around here turn totally brown, while at the same time mine don't even have the slightest leaf burn.

[Tad]

(mjff @ May 25 2007,01:00)

QUOTE

I like the foliage on the Canariensis, but I've heard the larger ones suffer a high mortality rate shortly after planting, and where they are going to go I need some that are 5+ feet of clear trunk.

In the dry air here I should be able to get dates from the Medjools.  I understand that in humid areas they don't ripen properly.  The fruit is one reason I'm leaning towards the Dactyliferas, but if they are going to burn every year...

The fronds on the Washingtonias I have are dark green, so I guess they are W. Robusta.  At least they are all in areas where they will be easy to replace with Filiferas if/when we have to.  I don't know why he would plant the Robustas instead of the Filiferas here.  Are the Filiferas more expensive?

judging by where your landscaper shops you got robustas, maybe crosses but more than likely robustas.

[palmmermaid]

I was in Jacksonville in north Florida in 1989 - the worst freeze in my memory in Florida.  There are P. dactyliferas that survived that year.  It stayed below freezing for several days with ice everywhere.  Just about shut the city down.

[mjff]

Jim, he said they were Robusta, but looking at them this morning the fronds are a lighter green than the Texas Sabals we planted, but no grey tint to them.  The heads are still tied up on everything so its kind of hard to tell much about their growth habit at this point.  The trunks are a little narrower than the Sabals of the same size, but not much (maybe 75% of the caliper of the Sabals).

Tad, I'm pretty sure he got them from Abbott Palms along with the Med. Fans.  The main purpose of his trip was to get me Sabals and Mexican Fan Palms.

Good info on the Phoenix hardiness, thanks.

[Kris]

Very interesting topic.

Love,

Kris  

[NBTX11]

(mjff @ May 25 2007,12:18)

QUOTE

Jim, he said they were Robusta, but looking at them this morning the fronds are a lighter green than the Texas Sabals we planted, but no grey tint to them.  The heads are still tied up on everything so its kind of hard to tell much about their growth habit at this point.  The trunks are a little narrower than the Sabals of the same size, but not much (maybe 75% of the caliper of the Sabals).

Tad, I'm pretty sure he got them from Abbott Palms along with the Med. Fans.  The main purpose of his trip was to get me Sabals and Mexican Fan Palms.

Good info on the Phoenix hardiness, thanks.

If you want to post a pic, I should be able to tell you which one you got.  What kind of sabals did you get.  Sabal Mexicana has thicker trunks than Sabal Palmetto trunks, usually.

[mjff]

(syersj @ May 25 2007,21:05)

QUOTE

(mjff @ May 25 2007,12:18)

QUOTE

Jim, he said they were Robusta, but looking at them this morning the fronds are a lighter green than the Texas Sabals we planted, but no grey tint to them.  The heads are still tied up on everything so its kind of hard to tell much about their growth habit at this point.  The trunks are a little narrower than the Sabals of the same size, but not much (maybe 75% of the caliper of the Sabals).

Tad, I'm pretty sure he got them from Abbott Palms along with the Med. Fans.  The main purpose of his trip was to get me Sabals and Mexican Fan Palms.

Good info on the Phoenix hardiness, thanks.

If you want to post a pic, I should be able to tell you which one you got.  What kind of sabals did you get.  Sabal Mexicana has thicker trunks than Sabal Palmetto trunks, usually.

Not sure on this, but I think the Sabals are Sabal Mexicana.  That is what they are supposed to be anyway, of course, I've got a couple of Pindos that I've concluded are actually Jubaea X Butia.  

If anybody wants some nice JXB (2' trunk, 7' overall height) let me know and I'll hook you up, my landscaper brought in two loads from FL recently and many of them appear to be hybrids instead of pure Butias.  

If I had a digital camera I would post some pics, but I've never gotten around to buying one.  Once we get everything in I'll post some photos and y'all can tell me how much of it was mislabeled.

[DoomsDave]

(mjff @ May 23 2007,20:18)

QUOTE

My landscaper claims that P. Sylvestris is the cold hardiest of the Phoenix palms, but the research I have done indicates that P. Canariensis and P. Dactylifera handle cold better.  What have the members here found with the Phoenix palms?

My observations, confirmed by others is that:

P. dactylifera is far and away the hardiest.  It will survive temperatures to 10 F.

P. canariensis is next.

P. sylvestris is after that.

[richtrav]

I remember the freezes in the '80s well in San Antonio, and Jim is right, canariensis is the hardiest species in Central Texas. Some WERE lost in '89, usually either very young ones or very old ones, but most survived. There was a nice old one at the Palm School in downtown Austin which tried to recover from '89 but died the following summer. Their reliability limit seems to be around New Braunfels: you see a fair number there but almost no old ones in San Marcos or out in the hills. For true dates, their hardiness limit roughly follows a line from Eagle Pass going SE towards the coast. The Presidio-Terlingua area is also warm enough for them to survive long term (someone is probably going to tell you El Paso is too, but I don't know how they did in El Paso's last really bad freeze - which was way back in 1962)

The 1983 freeze was actually harder on the palms and it killed a fair number of dactylifera in town and almost all the W. robusta in SA (which fared better in the colder but shorter and drier '89 freeze). Don't know about some of those species closely related to true date such as theophrastii, they weren't around. The Phoenix at the SA Water Board building downtown was supposedly brought in as a sylvestris but just looks like a grey canariensis hybrid. It has survived since the '60s and nearly died 2 years ago when the center looked like it had died but it staged a miraculous recovery. I don't know of any old true sylvestris in town. I have one going on 10 years old and it was badly scorched in the late '02 freeze but came back very fast.

The big negative to the Phoenix is that they take almost 2 years to completely restore their beautiful crowns after being defoliated. P. sylvestris seems to be the exception, it recovers much faster.

To me the most impressive date in SA is the reclinata hybrid at Fort Sam Houston - the foliage on it seems as hardy as canariensis

Richard

[NBTX11]

(richtrav @ May 26 2007,11:01)

QUOTE

Their reliability limit seems to be around New Braunfels: you see a fair number there but almost no old ones in San Marcos or out in the hills.

Rich, this is true there are a number of mature canariensis here in New Braunfels, where I live, which I could point out.  Some look great, like the 80s freezes didn't touch them, others have messed up trunks from the same freezes.

I would assume there are a few long term survivors somewhere in Austin -  San Marcos, since they are only a couple degrees colder, if that, but I haven't scouted out those areas extensively.

[mjff]

Interesting.  I'm curious, given the long recovery time for the canopy what temperature can each withstand before the leaves are burned?  Most of our freezes here are radiational cooling events.  The afternoon temperature will be in the 60's or 70's with clear skies, low humidity, and no wind.  As soon as the sun goes down the temperature drops like a rock and bottoms out somewhere in the 20's then rebounds into the 60's or 70's the next afternoon.  I'm guessing that isn't going to bother anything we are planting.  Once or twice a winter though we actually get a week of winter where temperatures drop and stay low for several days.  Most of the time you're talking temperatures staying in the 20's, but once in the 12 years I've been here they dropped into the low teens and stayed there for about 100 hours.  I'm guessing something like that is going to be pretty bad for any palm.

Jim, I measured the caliper 3' from the ground on the Sabals (18") and the Washingtonias (13").  The trunks on them are 6'-7' tall, and they still have the old bases on them, if any of that helps.

[NBTX11]

Without seeing a photo, you probably got Sabal Mexicana (good choice) and Washingtonia Robusta , possible hybrid.

The average winter weather you just described won't hurt any of the palms in question.  All Washingtonias, Phoenix Canariensis, and Sabals are good to go to at least 20F with no damage (or very minimal), provided it isn't long term.  Caveat - if it is an extended freeze below freezing for a long time, then they might burn/kill weak species.  Teens F will burn washingtonia robusta and phoenix canariensis, washy filifera and sabal mexicana handle mid to upper teens pretty easy without much damage at all.   Below 10-15F you are rolling the dice with all of the above.

If they burn in the winter, just cut off the dead fronds in the spring, and they should usually make a nice full recovery.  Canariensis takes a while to recover - at least I have heard, mine has never seen anything below the 20s.

[mjff]

I was at the nursery today to select some pink and grey boulders he got in from AZ for our yard, and he confirmed that they are supposed to be W. Robusta.  He says he prefers them over the W. Filifera because they grow faster and get larger.

Our winters really are a crap shoot.  Easter 2006 we were in the triple digits for a high, and this year we were below freezing for several days with snow and ice.  I should have gotten some photos of the Med. Fan Palms in flower covered in snow and ice.  Didn't seem to bother them at all, but they did not set any fruit.  I thought we were going to have a lot of damage to the pecans and fruit trees, but the ice coating seems to have protected them.  The pecans didn't lose their leaves, and the fruit trees retained all the fruit we hadn't thinned.  I'm going to be up to my eyeballs in almonds, peaches, plums, pears, pecans, nectarines, and apples  this summer barring some other disaster.

The good news is my house is on top of a ridge that drops fairly steeply on 3 sides, so on cold mornings we tend to be several degrees warmer than the official temperature at the airport, which is in a valley.  The bad news is there is no shelter from the wind, but when we get coldest is generally when winds are calm or light anyway.

[steve 9atx]

Martin

Relative to their expense, I can't imagine any Phoenix specie being an economical long-term subject in San Angelo.  Stick with W. filifera (distinguished by stray, curly filiments on the fronds, not necessarily the color), or go farther afield by choosing something like the Mazari palm for both cold, and in your climate, drought hardiness.

Steve

[mjff]

Steve,

I wanted a large pinnate palm or group of pinnate palms for that spot.  Nannorrhops ritchiana is too small and is palmate.  I agree it would be a good choice for my locale, and I may have a couple of other spots I could put one, but what is availability/cost like for it?

[mjff]

Regarding the stray curly filaments, its kind of hard to tell with the heads still tied up, but I see long curly filaments that appear to be on the petioles towards the end where the fan attaches to it, like maybe the last 6 inches before the fan.  Is that where a Filifera would have them?

[DoomsDave]

The edible date's big ace in the hole is the fact that it will branch again from the base if it gets whacked by the cold, unless it gets REALLY cold.

Which it certainly can in TX, after sleeping in my car in Hugetown . . . .

dave

[Tad]

imo robusta is just a bad idea poorly executed for san angelo Tx.

a filifera is going to present a much more massive speciman, just as quick as a robusta in your climate...and stands a chance of enjoying it for longer.

[NBTX11]

(steve 9atx @ May 27 2007,02:14)

QUOTE

Martin

Relative to their expense, I can't imagine any Phoenix specie being an economical long-term subject in San Angelo.  Stick with W. filifera (distinguished by stray, curly filiments on the fronds, not necessarily the color), or go farther afield by choosing something like the Mazari palm for both cold, and in your climate, drought hardiness.

Steve

Steve, I disagree with this statement.  Every pure filifera I have seen has lighter colored fronds than robustas.  I have seen a lot of them and have 3 of them in my yard, along with 1 robusta, and 1 hybrid.  Just my opinion and observation.  Maybe lighter isn't the right word, maybe it is different color of green, but there is a difference  

[NBTX11]

(palmotrafficante @ May 27 2007,13:33)

QUOTE

imo robusta is just a bad idea poorly executed for san angelo Tx.

a filifera is going to present a much more massive speciman, just as quick as a robusta in your climate...and stands a chance of enjoying it for longer.

Correct, filifera will grow just as fast in that type of climate, and stand a chance at semi long term survival.  Robusta might spend most of it's time recovering from winter, and go into decline.

I did notice some great looking 40' robustas along 281 in Marble Falls TX in the hill country, that have been there a while and they look established and don't seem to mind they winter there (someone brought them in I am sure and transplanted them there).  They are right on lake marble falls, or what ever it is.

I have also seen a handful of robusta in the Ft Worth area, but they seem to struggle every winter to come back, I noticed a couple had died last time I went through.

I saw some HUGE filiferas in Killeen TX not too long ago that looked like they have been there for 50 years.  If they can make it there, they should be ok for San Angelo.

[steve 9atx]

Jim

You're right.  Relative to robusta, filifera looks a little more, maybe "washed out" is the right word.  This is more obvious (along with trunk diameter) on larger sepcimens.  For folks who can't tell them apart, however, I think identifying the filaments on small plants make them easier to distinguish than trying to grade the color of the leaves.

Martin

The filaments look like they've sort of "peeled off" the sides of the leaflets and tend to curl at the end.  Small plants can look quite "furry".  There is a hybrid, the so-called "filibusta" that may show some of this tendency, but is not easy (for me) to identify until it starts trunking.  It has much more of the physical characteristics of robusta and isn't as cold hardy as pure filifera.

I don't really have a good source for Nannhorrops for you.  Horticultural Consultants in Houston may have some larger plants, but your going to pay $$$$ for them.  Try a seeding or two.  Most all my palms were seedlings or from seed I germinated.  Just put the food and water to them and they'll grow for you, faster than you think.  

Steve

[mjff]

Steve, the leaflets I can see look pretty clean, but the ends have also been cut.  I see a lot of filaments inside the tied up fronds but can't really tell where they are coming from.  We will be untying them in about two weeks, so maybe that will help clear things up.  The plants we have are over 6' from the ground to the lowest living frond, so I'm not sure if you would consider them small or not.

Jim, I'm pretty sure there a couple of Robusta not too far from here that are about 30' tall.  I will have to take a closer look at them next time I'm in that area.  I asked my landscaper what they were before we started, and he said they were Robusta.  I'm pretty sure they have been there for a long time, which means they somehow survived the 100+ hours in the low teens a few winters ago.  I'll try to post a photo of them.  He has planted a lot of them here, and he warranties them for 1 year, so he must not be having too many problems with them surviving.  Maybe something about the climate here helps them take the cold better.  I used to live in N. TX and they get a lot more ice than we do, and seem to warm up more slowly after a cold front than we do too.

[steve 9atx]

Martin

At six trunk feet, a filifera will weigh at least 2x as much as the same height robusta.  Filifera trunks get massive.  

Several years ago, I made a deal between an apartment developer and the City of Houston Parks Department - The City removed 15-16 filiferas  with probably 15' clear trunk feet from the developer's site in exchange for new sapling street trees in the ROW to meet the City's landscape ordinance.  I had the City move them to a semicircular planting at the Jesse Jones fountain at the "Y" between Greenbriar and Fannin for those who know it.  The fountain was being renovated and rededicated.  All but one of the 15-16 trees survived the move.  It took several of the City's largest boom trucks with tons of rigging and laborers to move and install these massive trees.

Unfortunately, ten years later, a medical office building went in near the fountain and the bastards knocked these magnificent palms over!  I couldn't believe it.  Apparantly, they bought the area around the fountain from the City, knocked the palms over, and filled the fountain in for a planter.

In any case, there are lots of both species in my neighborhood - I'll post a pic or two when I get around to it.  One other ID tip for older palms is that filifera tend to have stiffer fronds, robusta much "droopier", say, like a L. chinensis.

Steve

[NBTX11]

(mjff @ May 27 2007,19:45)

QUOTE

Jim, I'm pretty sure there a couple of Robusta not too far from here that are about 30' tall.  I will have to take a closer look at them next time I'm in that area.  I asked my landscaper what they were before we started, and he said they were Robusta.  I'm pretty sure they have been there for a long time, which means they somehow survived the 100+ hours in the low teens a few winters ago.  I'll try to post a photo of them.  He has planted a lot of them here, and he warranties them for 1 year, so he must not be having too many problems with them surviving.  Maybe something about the climate here helps them take the cold better.  I used to live in N. TX and they get a lot more ice than we do, and seem to warm up more slowly after a cold front than we do too.

I don't doubt there are some decent sized robustas around you.  What we are talking about, though is LONG term survival.  Unfortuantely, I think eventually (although it may be a long time away), there will be a cold snap, that will come in and wipe out robustas there in your area.  This is just my opinion, but I think it is correct.  Otherwise, you would see long term survivors, of old robustas everywhere.  San Antonio is waaay warmer than San Angelo, and even here there were a lot of robustas killed in the 80s freezes.  Sure, there are a lot that survived, but a lot didn't.  But you can drive down just about any residentual street here and see 30-40' robustas and hybrids (probably more hybrids with thin trunks), so that means they are hardy.  Look around and see what has made it long term if anything.  You might see some W. Filifera long term survivors (maybe).  

I also used to live in N. Tx (Wichita Falls).  I remember the annual ice storm(s) they used to get.  Also, remember one year the city (I think) came by and planted a bunch of robusta on some streets.  They died within 2-3 years.  I did not see any long term survivors.  They did not plant wisely, imo, they should have planted either w. filifera or sabals, to give them half a chance.

[mjff]

Jim. I don't doubt we will eventually have a cold snap severe enough to kill every palm in my yard (our record low is -4), but  I'm really hoping I won't be around to experience it (who says global warming is bad???).  The cold snap we had a couple of years ago ranked among the worst for our area both in length and how cold it got.  100 hours in the low teens is pretty bad for this area.  In fact, I don't recall us getting below 15 even briefly any other time in the 12 years I've lived here.

Unfortunately San Angelo aspires to be Plano, TX.  So despite the fact that our climate is hot and dry, most of the architecture looks like somebody plunked a bunch of Plano tract homes down here on the edge of the desert complete with dark, heat retaining brick and dark, steep pitched roofs.  Nevermind that the brick will still be hot to the touch at 2:00 am in the summer, the dark roof will make the attic nice and hot well into the evening, and on average we get about 20" of rain per year making a steep pitched roof an odd option.  

Of course, to go along with it most have planted their yards with water guzzling grass and deciduous trees.  In short, palms of any type are a rarity here.  My landscaper has been in the business about 30 years working for most of that in Las Vegas (he landscaped many of the casinos) and Phoenix.  He has only been in San Angelo for about 4 years, and before that had you walked into a nursery here and requested a palm they probably wouldn't have known what you were asking for.  To this day he is the only source locally for specimens of any size, so given the history, the likelihood of finding long term survivors of any type palm here is pretty small.  Not because they won't survive here, but because so few were ever planted here in the first place.

I don't doubt the Filifera is a superior choice for this area, but since I already apparently have Robustas, I guess we'll see how/if they work out and replace them with Filiferas if/when they die.  At least they are all within 5'  of the driveway, making replacement a snap.

Steve, I have some Sabal Mexicana that are about the same height.  Their trunks are 18" caliper 3' off the ground, the Washingtonia trunks are 13.5" wide at that height if that helps any.  I found some photos of both and it appears to me that mine are Robusta.  The leaves aren't divided deeply enough to be Filiferas.

[steve 9atx]

Martin

Here're your robusta's:

[steve 9atx]

And your filifera.  Sorry, the way I took this from the car, a RR crossing sign kind of makes the trunk look skinnier than it really is.  If I had to guess, this tree is 25' tall with a tunk caliper of every bit of 36".  You can just see the right hand side of the trunk past the sign post.  Just compare the trunk to other objects (fire hydrant, power poles) in the photo.

Steve

[mppalms]

Has anyone tested P. loureiri var. humilis in a freeze?  How did it hold up?  Thanks..

[mjff]

Steve, thanks for the photos.  From what I can tell thus far, I'm pretty sure I've got Robusta given the characteristics of the trunks and leaves.

[BobbyinNY]

Just a curious question...

with everyone talking about P. Canariensis tolerating temps way below freezing, I was wondering how they would tolerate a frost at say 25-35f... would the fronds burn in a hard frost?