Brahea armata or Sabal mexicana?

[NM_PALM_BOY]

I'm ramping up my palm planting aspirations and need some forum advice from the zone benders before I dump $$$ into this:D .

Again, mixed research/opinions about these two, but which one is more cold hardy and will perform better in my cold high desert conditions here in zone 7- the Sabal mexicana (Mexican Palmetto) or the Brahea armata (Mexican blue palm / Blue hesper palm)?

Thanks all!!

Doug

[DoomsDave]

That is an interesting question!

Hmm.  The brahea is a serious desert palm, so I think it has the edge.  Its leaves are smaller and more compact than the Sabal.

Why not compromise, plant both and report back . . . . ?

dave

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Why not compromise, plant both and report back . . . . ?

Gee Dave, how 'bout floating me about $400 to "test" them! What people don't realize about trying this here in Abq. is the shipping factor. Locally, I am the only one doing this (that I'm aware of..I don't see palms anywhere in town..except the Zoo) and the nurseries here look at me like I'm crazy when I ask. Or they say "Sure...how much $$ ya got?" since they never get requests for palms. We are 400 miles from the nearest big city and 300 miles from El Paso...the closest place possible for getting these palms...IF they have them!   Transportation costs, my good man...transportation costs.

(Sorry.. Dave...I get a  frustrated. We have the climate to do this, but we are behind the times in horticulture here-no one wants to experiment)

Doug

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Dave,

As it is, I spend most of my money with palms on transportation costs..I need larger specimens to give them a fighting chance. My Med. Fan (which survived this winter) had a 2 ft. trunk and cost $300 when I bought it in El Paso. Luckily at the time I was going down there regularly for business. The Trachies..$100/ ft...also El Paso. At this point, I have a relatively INSANE budget for palms, but I don't want to be too ridiculous about it.

Thanks for the input...still a bit frustrated!!

[NBTX11]

Doug, I thought they grew palms in S. NM, Las Cruces, TorC, etc.  Don't they have any palm nurseries or are they all driving to El Paso.

I vote for Brahea Armata since it's a true desert palm.  Sabal Mexicana is not a true desert palm and is less hardy imo (although very hardy in it's own right).  The RGV where they are native to is arid, but not desert.

If I were going to do a Sabal in ABQ, I would do a Sabal Palmetto and keep well watered.  They are slightly hardier than Mexicana by most accounts.

I still say get your hand on a TRUE W. Filifera.  I swear by them.  They are a beast and SUPER hardy.  Ones in TX took at least single digits during the great freezes with EASE.  (Maybe even 0F in some cases!!!)  I just saw a huge beautiful row in Killeen, North Central TX that obviously made it thru the 80s freezes, when I was up there recently.   Must be seed from PURE filifera.

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Thanks Jim,

I found another one..Sabal uresana (Sonoran Blue Palmetto).

The problem I am having is that everyone has a different story on hardiness. One website places the Sonoran Blue as MORE hardy than the other two. Confusing!!

What do you guys think?

Doug

PS: I know...EVENTUALLY I will have to jump off the cliff and just try some of these...I just don't want to lose my wallet on the way down!!

PPS: Last winter would have FRIED most of the ones we are talking about. It got down to 2F with 3 days of below freezing daytime temps. Rare, but I'm glad I did not choose  last year to experiment.

[DoomsDave]

NM PB:

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound cavalier.  

I understand budget restraints.  

You are, however, in uncharted territory.

You may have to experiment.  What I'd do for now is lay hands on some little ones that aren't too costly to ship and grow them under protection for a while.  Or even without.  Get them from Kapoho, etc., and the shipping won't be that much.  Get a couple of dozen of each and try them.  

Then resume the hunt for big ones at a good price.

And, report back to us as to what happens.

dave

P.S. Do try some Jubes, they're supposed to take 0 FF . . .

[Tad]

brahea in the dry cold, sabals in the wet.

sabal mexicana is tough, but it likes it's  humidity, brahea handle the dry much better.

brahea handles the extreme flux in temps better than s. mexicana.

this is all just my opinion, based on observations I have made.

[Tad]

(NM_PALM_BOY @ May 04 2007,17:45)

QUOTE

At this point, I have a relatively INSANE budget for palms, but I don't want to be too ridiculous about it.

drive a little further and SAVE,SAVE,SAVE! ! !

[NBTX11]

Drive down to Palmotrafficante's place in S TX and get your hands on whatever you need and load up.

[NBTX11]

Repeat after me: Wl Filifera, W. Filifera, W. Filifera.

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Get them from Kapoho?Do try some Jubes, they're supposed to take 0

Jubes? Kapoho? "I R a Palm Ideot" What are these?

Thanks Dave,

PS: What about the Sonoran Blue Palmetto?

Jim: No.. Las Cruces TorC. No selection

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Jim...please look at a map...it is a 2-3 day drive for me! ???

PS: I talked to Palmo..he's willing to mail small samples to me.

[Tad]

i have sabal uresanas in convienient travel size packages!!

plus we are lots nicer than El Paso!

our version of mexico is safer too!!

[NM_PALM_BOY]

rive a little further and SAVE,SAVE,SAVE! ! !

OK, Ya'all (that's what you'all say in Texas, right?) need to visit Mr. Rand and Mr. McNally...a LITTLE further!?! ???

[Tad]

by Texas standards The Rio Grande Valley is just a little further...rember we measure distance by hours here!

What about trithrinax ...they can do some dry cold!

[NM_PALM_BOY]

1071.81 miles. I could drive to LA, Phoenix, Vegas and it would be 200+ miles shorter than the longest one of these cities.

Sorry guys..I'm not feelin' the LUV here!!

Jim: I tried what I was told was a W.F. ..Died! It may not have been pure, but cross-breeding is common and not as easily controlled.

[Tad]

(NM_PALM_BOY @ May 04 2007,22:10)

QUOTE

Sorry guys..I'm not feelin' the LUV here!!

C'mon down with your insane budget and I will make sure you feel loved!  bring a trailer and some shade cloth for a tarp and you will go home with enough trees to sell your own carbon credits!

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Sorry Palmo...rather have'em shipped!! It would cost me $1000 or more just to do that. I'd love to give you the biz, but I'm not THAT insane.

Doug

PS: Been drinkin' again have we? (I'm not judgmental, just jealous!)

[Tad]

(NM_PALM_BOY @ May 04 2007,22:28)

QUOTE

PS: Been drinkin' again have we? (I'm not judgmental, just jealous!)

no abso not, 6 years and counting no likey the firewater, and right close to a year...No smoking!!

[STEVE IN SO CAL]

(palmotrafficante @ May 04 2007,22:30)

QUOTE

(NM_PALM_BOY @ May 04 2007,22:28)

QUOTE

PS: Been drinkin' again have we? (I'm not judgmental, just jealous!)

no abso not, 6 years and counting no likey the firewater, and right close to a year...No smoking!!

I quit smoking 18 months ago...fun, eh?

I have some oversized 15 gal Sabal Minors that survived my Siberian-esqe field of death last winter. Completely untouched at 15f and 12 hrs below 30f. I could sell you 4 of them for $300 plus shipping(bareroot). PM if interested. These plants are tested cold hardy...

[Tad]

the smoking thing sucked!!! and for all the loved ones I hurt and damaged while quitting I am better now and ask your forgiveness!!!.....man quitting drinking was a snap compared to kicking the butts!

[Kris]

Dear folks  

i like to share an observation about the palms in question.

thinking that washy's,brehas,sabals,Bismarkia hate water in their feet.So i dug pits way below the 8 feet mark !

but to my shock the above fan palms are water guzzlur_they drink water daily as though their is no tomarrow.

and its hot and very humid here where iam living.and breha armeta,washy,sabal riverside & bizie Lady are growing likehell.but water consumption levels seem to be very high,compared to indian palms.

Love,

Kris  

[NM_PALM_BOY]

the smoking thing sucked!!! and for all the loved ones I hurt and damaged while quitting I am better now and ask your forgiveness!!!.....man quitting drinking was a snap compared to kicking the butts!

When I hit my mid thirties and lost 40 lbs, I couldn't do the fire water any more. Woke up one day and said "that's it!" No problem.

Palmo (and Steve)..I bow to your Budda nature on the smoking thing.. . I have not been able to master the art of quitting yet. After day 3 (of each of the 10 times I've tried to quit) the madness sets in.       We'll keep tryin'!

Is this an AA meeting or what? ???

Anyway, A bit of background regarding the weather in ABQ. to help everyone more accurately understand my limitations :

It is not the minimum temps, exactly, that hurts palms here. It is the prolonged and consisted lower temps that we have in winter. EAST of the Pacos, you may experience cold snaps briefly that push the temps down to 5-10F, but it is only brief. Even in places like Northern Texas, you will have prolonged WARM spells in the winter that help the plants survive. In ABQ, the weather is more consistent. We rarely have cold snaps below 10F, but it also rarely gets above 55-60Fduring the day and rarely stays above 23-28F at night from mid Dec- mid Jan. It's the extended and consisted hours below freezing that kill our palms here.

Here is what I know CAN grow here: Trachies, Med Fan, Dwarf Sabels (and probably Mazari, Needle).

Here is what I know CANNOT grow here: ANY Washy, Phoenix or any palm traditionally rated at 15F or above.

It's the in between stuff (Butia, Brahea and some larger Sabels) that may have a possibility.

Like I said before, I may have to test some of these, but I am looking for someone in the forum that MAY have a similar climate and/or experience than me.

Doug

[Tad]

let me know, we can ship to all 50 states.

[Kris]

(palmotrafficante @ May 05 2007,11:54)

QUOTE

let me know, we can ship to all 50 states.

Holy Jesus !

are you palmtrafficate or are you palm factory ! WOW  

I like that confidence in your work_Keep it up Buddy.

Love,

Kris  

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Palmo,

I need LARGE specimens. the shipping would be OUTRAGEOUS! I'm still researching!

Doug

[Tad]

your other post sez your going big??

your wanting to buy from HCI and your worried about shipping costs??

get your priorities straight.

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Tad,

ANSWER YOUR PHONE, I"M TRYING TO CALL YOU!!

I have not called them yet. I assume that they are expensive, but that's why I'm asking!! When we had talked before (ANSWER YOUR PHONE!!) you had mentioned that you only had small plants.

Doug

[NBTX11]

Doug I am betting 100% that you did NOT get your hands on PUUUURRE Filiferas.  Did they have extremely light grey/greenish fronds as opposed to the much dark greener fronds of a robusta or hybrid?  Pure Filiferas and 50X hardier than Robustas or Hybrids and AS hardy as any Sabal, IMO.  I got 5 pure filiferas from Tad recently that I planted in my mom's yard in North Texas, near the Oklahoma border, and I am expecting them to live there.  I have one in my front yard that is growing like there is no tomorrow, putting out fronds like wild.

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Doug I am betting 100% that you did NOT get your hands on PUUUURRE Filifera

Jim,

Based on your response, you have not been reading this thread. Please read above under Abq. climate. The Filifera will not live in Socorro (100 mi south of here) much less Abq. They barely hang on in TorC (200 mi south and 2000 feet lower!!)

Doug

[NBTX11]

That may very well be true, but they are as hardy as any SAbal, guaranteed!!!  Many mature specimens have taken down to 2 or 3F, possibly 0F and survived in TX.  I don't know how much hardier you can get than that.  Research just how cold it got in TX in the 89 freeze and they are still standing strong all over the place.  According to  Yahoo weather and other wether sites it got into the low single digits in 89 around here and I can walk around my block and see huge old 50-60 year old Filiferas!!!

[NM_PALM_BOY]

Jim,

Getting frustrated again........  READ THE QUOTE!!

It is not the minimum temps, exactly, that hurts palms here. It is the prolonged and consisted lower temps that we have in winter. EAST of the Pacos, you may experience cold snaps briefly that push the temps down to 5-10F, but it is only brief. Even in places like Northern Texas, you will have prolonged WARM spells in the winter that help the plants survive. In ABQ, the weather is more consistent. We rarely have cold snaps below 10F, but it also rarely gets above 55-60Fduring the day and rarely stays above 23-28F at night from mid Dec- mid Jan. It's the extended and consisted hours below freezing that kill our palms here.

Doug

[NBTX11]

I read the quote, I still think it's worth a shot, if you can get it established, considering how dry you are. I could be wrong though.  Someone once posted some pics of some huge ones from TorC NM on this board.  (I realize they are slightly colder than you).  But those had to have seen some serious cold.

[jrod]

You may want to check out a few of these articles/topics.  Apparently there are some washingtonias and maybe some other palms your interested in for ABQ.

Location of plams in ABQ

ABQ Palms(Pictures)

[NBTX11]

(syersj @ May 05 2007,18:22)

QUOTE

Someone once posted some pics of some huge ones from TorC NM on this board.  (I realize they are slightly colder than you).  

EDIT: I meant warmer, not colder.

[NBTX11]

(syersj @ May 05 2007,18:22)

QUOTE

I read the quote, I still think it's worth a shot, if you can get it established, considering how dry you are. I could be wrong though.  Someone once posted some pics of some huge ones from TorC NM on this board.  (I realize they are slightly colder than you).  But those had to have seen some serious cold.

Here is the link, with a pic of some huge Filiferas in TorC NM.

http://palmtalk.org/cgi-bin....ilifera

[NM_PALM_BOY]

OK..now I'm REALLY confused. Jrod brought this to my attention (thanks, by the way)

You may want to check out a few of these articles/topics.  Apparently there are some washingtonias and maybe some other palms your interested in for ABQ.

In 25 years and an exhaustive search, I have never seen a Washy growing in ABQ! If this is true,I cannot believe my eyes! I am trying to contact this individual to see where he lives and how he did it.

Doug

[NM_PALM_BOY]

OK..I get it now.

I have done more research on the filifera issue in ABQ. Based on what I have found, ALL of the filiferas mentioned (and seen) in ABQ are LESS than 10 years old unless they are extremely sheltered and "wrapped" for the winter.

This makes sense. ABQ has not had a "normal" winter in OVER 12 years. This year, we got down below 0F in many parts of the city for the first time in OVER 20 YEARS!!

I am in CA until December, but I will be back in ABQ in July for awhile. I'll asses the damage then.

Jim, I could try one again and see. The last time I tried one was about 15 years ago. Like my signature says...Global Warming! Good for palms in ABQ I guess!

Doug

[NBTX11]

Right, I know it probably wouldn't be totally permanent, but if you can get 10-15 years out of it, to me it's worth it.  Then you replace it.