Germination

[bgl]

One piece of information that rarely seems to be discussed in detail is the length of time for germination of different palm species. I realize this partly depends on your method. For instance, I don't use any bottom heat, so most seeds probably take a little bit longer that way. Still, if seeds from a particular palm are likely to take 12 months to germinate, this is obviously very useful information, so that you don't begin to get disappointed after 2-3 months! (which seems to be normal for most seeds - without bottom heat).

I started thinking about this yesterday because I was given some Carpoxylon macrospermum seeds last month. They came from Pauleen Sullivan's tree in Kapoho (is this the first Carpoxylon to produce seeds in the USA?). I planted the seeds on March 16. Normally, I don't even check the seeds until at least two months have gone by, but I happened to notice that the cover to the plastic germination container was at a tilt, and when I opened it up, I realized why. The seeds had not only germinated - they were pushing the cover. I'd heard that these are easy to germinate, but being that this was my first attempt I was still impressed by the fact that exactly six weeks after I had planted the seeds, they had not only germinated but had also grown quite a bit. Out of 16 seeds, 15 have germimated. Here's a photo:

(And please feel free to add your own experiences with length of germination for various species)

[Kris]

Dear Bo Goran  

that was a very useful peice of information to us.and to me inperticular since even i do not give my seeds external

heating assistance.and the still is very pleasing to the eye.

Great Work !

and also thanks for sharing such minute but vital info on those varities..

Love,

Kris  

[Kamipalms]

Bo,

I think successful germination has a great deal to with freshness and quality.

Theres a lot of stuff ( species wise) out there that I'm yet to try but from what I have tried you couldn't classify as one lot in regards to germination times/rates.

For example;

one batch of seed I received a couple of years ago took 9 to 18 months to germinate. I received another batch of the same species from a different origin just recently and these ones germinated within weeks with growth and vigor rivaling the previous lot. As for freshness of both lots of seed I would guess they would have been very similar.

Left in the black pots ( 75mm-3" for scale) were sown last September, germinating within weeks

On the right, the same species sown back in August 2004, germinating February 2006

Example #2;

3 different species of the same genus.

I'm guessing that these 3 would have been collected around the same time as each other. The first species germinated within a couple of weeks with almost all seeds germinating. The second species was extremely erratic with a couple germinating within a month or two then a couple more germinating 12 or so months later. The third species did not germinate ( or hasn't yet) almost 18 months so far.

All of the above have been germinated on heat using the same medium.

Question- Do wild collected seeds germinate better/faster than seed from a cultivated source?

From my experience I would defiantly say YES!

Question #2- how many people germinate their own seeds ( collected from their own plants) or do you exchange these for others?

[canelgat]

I want to agree with Kamipalms. Have germinate lots of seeds from him, and have obtained the same germination ratios than seeds wild-collected by myself.

To the question #2 I would like more people do exchange their own seeds, better international exchanges  but can imagine that when you are looking your own palms so much time to produce seeds you may imagine there are so common not other people would want to spend any time to sprout the seeds...

[Kamipalms]

Sorry people..

For some reason my pic hasn't shown up above the line-

Left in the black pots ( 75mm-3" for scale) were sown last September, germinating within weeks

On the right, the same species sown back in August 2004, germinating February 2006

So here's the pic..

[Phil]

Bo and Others,

Time for seed germination is an interesting topic, but my take on it is that you can come up with generalizations and not specifics.  So much depends on the age of the seeds, the maturity of the seeds, technique, temperatures, etc.  I think a statement like "quick germinater", "slow germinater", etc. is appropriate.    You can have one batch of seeds of a species that takes 21 days to germinate and then, a year later, the same species takes 90 days.  So, general comments are appropriate.  Interestingly, if you go to the early days of the IPS 50 years ago, many articles were written where statements like "it took 112 days to germinate" were made.  And, people considered such information to be the 'Bible".  This is before the days of the specialty nursery where people just buy the finish product.  Back then, you "had" to get seeds to be a palm collector.  Now, after germination of hundreds of thousands of seeds, I think specific times for germination are misleading.  The most important germinating pearl I can think of is that (on most species) freshly picked and cleaned seeds always give the best results.

Phil

[Kris]

Dear Guys  

i have a problem here,iam doing good in germination.but they

die one by one in this very humid summer,the temperature is

around 89 to 91 degree farentheat.so the top layer of the soil

appears dried so i water it every alternate days.and in just 2 weeks they die.

they are indoors and this seems to happen in all kinds of soil_

washed river sand,clayee soil,even using the coir used in baggie method.

last year too an entire batch of germinated & sprouted specimens perished in a similar fashion ?

the varities are_Cactus,Dracanon drago,Med Fan,Pseudo

phoenix ekamanii,B.O.P,Nolina,Josheua tree,lipstick palms.

here i do not have access to your potting medium.so what is the solution to my problem_Please help needed.

so also die due to squriel attach that are placed outside.

is there any tequnik that i must adopt and iam using fungicide too but no use...

Thanks & Love,

Kris  

[bgl]

Phil,

Yes, those are obviously excellent points. And I'd think that anyone who has attempted to germinate palm seeds realizes the importance of fresh seeds, temperature etc. And I think it's a great idea to be general (even though specific details can be useful, when available); i.e. "fast", "medium", "slow" (germinators) for instance. The Carpoxylon above would obviously fall in the "fast germinator" category. Not only that, but the seedlings are very vigorous. (I dislike seedlings with dinky little roots...!!).

Here's the Dypsis sp. "Orange crush" (D. pilulifera?). I planted the seeds on Sept. 26, 2006 and they first broke the surface sometime in February, so that was a germination time of a little more than four months. Barely in the "medium fast germinator" category I think. And I'll definitely keep them in this container for a few more months.

Kamipalms,

as to your Question #2, something like 97-98% of all the seeds I germinate are from my own palms here on our property. In a few cases I've bought seeds from Ortanique, of palm species that I either don't have, OR palms that I do have, but it'll be a LONG time before I can expect mine to produce viable seeds.

Bo-Göran

Should also add that I have no intention of getting into the seed selling/trading business. I have enough difficulties juggling my current activities...

[Orlando]

(bgl @ Apr. 29 2007,22:15)

QUOTE

The Carpoxylon above would obviously fall in the "fast germinator" category. Not only that, but the seedlings are very vigorous. (I dislike seedlings with dinky little roots...!!).

When I tried them, a few years back, I also found Carpoxylon seeds quite fast to germinate!

Even at room temps as I always do (ranging from 17C to 25C).

For every species, as Phil stated very well, it does depend a lot on the freshness, maturity and so on...

I have got some fresh Syagrus seeds with very fast germinations and other batches of the same species still waiting to start...

Also, there are some 'myths' like, for instance, that Allagoptera seeds have a very short viability and I have had some sprouting after more than 2 years....

Kris, I have found that heat combined with very compact wet medium is the fastest way to rot seeds and seedlings!

I use the baggie method (same as closed boxies, after all), with well draining medium (mostly perlite), trying to keep it just slightly moist, and taking out the sprouts to other bags/pots as they start showing their first leaf.

I have even had seeds germinating with no medium, in bags, a few days after receiving them, like these ones from Livistona jenkinsiana:

[Dypsisdean]

(krisachar @ Apr. 29 2007,06:12)

QUOTE

so the top layer of the soil

appears dried so i water it every alternate days.and in just 2 weeks they die.

Kris,

I think it's important to realize that the 'top layer' of soil is not the guage by which you should judge when to water. Every good gardener sticks their finger (or meter) down into the soil to measure when to water. It is not the apperance of the surface that matters. It is the moisture in the root zone that should be the criterion. If you are constantly adding water while the soil an inch or two down is still wet, you are inviting problems.

[Logolight]

So far I've had good results germinating seeds.  My Queens only took 30 days to germinate,my Carpies took 25 days, and my Foxtails took about 40 days.  

I credit these quick germinating times by stumbling onto the perfect environment for germination.  I'll use my Carpies as an example.  I found the seeds in Miami last summer and I picked them up from the ground as they were literally falling off the tree in front of me.  After I got them home I put on the rubber gloves and spent the next hour or so peeling the seeds and placing them in a cup of water to keep them from drying out before sewing.  Next, I got a Sterilite container and added the usual mix of Pete and Perlite and moistened the medium to what I guessed was the right amount of moisture.  I then Burried each seed just below the surface, not even to the width of the seeds.  Before I put the lid on the container I placed weather strip around the lip of the container to achieve an air tight environment.  The I place the container on a shelf in my garage where I could inspect them for fungus during the germination period.  As for the temps, during the hot summer days in Jacksonville, my garage maintains an average temperature of 30-35C during the day and at night while it's cooler outside the warmth from my car's engines keep the garage heated between 25-30C.  

Of course though I contribute most of my germinating success to the gracious and helpful fellow palm growers and collectors of this message board.

[Kris]

Dear Orlando  

seeing your still on those beautifully germinated seeds made my face go red in envy...

and even iam comfortable with the baggie method.and as you have said i will try to look into those details from now onwards.

and my sinseire thanks to you for that assistance.since importing seeds to me is a costly affair and i cant loose even one germinated seeds_at lest hypothatically speaking.

Dear Dean  

thanks very much.and i will try to check the potted soil medium before re watering and i will stop immedietly

watering based on day schedule.

but i was hestitant to touch the soil daily since it has strong doasge of contact based broad spectrum fungicide,

but i will try using a stick or metal rod,like dip sticks used in automobiles to check engine oil level.

thanks very much for the help & timely assistance.

Love,

Kris(India)  

[Trópico]

I generally have a good germination thumb. My technique has basically settled into using Glad tupperware containers with a lid and a mix of vermiculite/perlite or peat/perlite. I tried and discarded the baggie method, it just doesn't work for me.

Still there are issues that I have been battling with:

1. Seed freshness: I order from a good company that I think their only drawback is being overseas in a cold country. I wonder how that affects seed viability? What are their shelf life procedures? This last order I made one very expensive packet of seeds was engulfed in a cute snowflake of mold.

2. Transportation techniques: Transporting with the seed fruit still in place I think is not good! This is where most fungi will settle in transit.

3. Once I clean the seeds and plant them, a clue that tells me that the seed may not germinate at all is some hairy mold appearing overnight just on the surface of the seeds. This has happened if the seeds are not as fresh. Not even a bleach or fungicide dip will save those, as I think the seeds are already rotting internally.

[bgl]

Bumping this for Curt's benefit.

[Guest Lucinda]

This germinating thread is extremely helpful to someone who is trying the germination process for the very first time. My seeds are Christmas palm (adonidia merrili) picked right off a tree in my neighborhood in February. I have about 500. They began showing signs of life when I put them on a heat mat a few weeks ago and now many are ready to plant. What type of pot/container do you recommend? Should the newly planted container be placed outdoors? Covered? Sun? Shade?

I live on Terra Ceia Bay between Tampa FL and Sarasota. Your help with what to me is a vast Unknown will be greatly appreciated.

[PALM MOD]

Lucinda,

Welcome to the Forum. Try using the search feature at the top. If you can get the hang of it you will find many threads talking about germination, that you will find interesting and useful.

[Trópico]

Hi Lucinda, welcome to the forum!  

A. merrilii should be ready to go into a one gallon container as they are quite large seedlings from first leaf. Use a loose soil potting mix and fertilize & water generously. I germinated 3 seeds last May and have 3 beautiful seedlings on their 4 or 5th leaf, each a little more than a foot tall. Great palms in my opinion.

[Howeadypsis]

Well i planted fresh seeds of both P.roebelenii and Brahea edulis on 19 january.Some of  the Phoenix are up and are about an inch long now but no sign at all of the Brahea. But then those refer are a lot bigger and i guess the bigger the refer the longer they take. Now my seeds of Chamaedorea metallica were sown a moth later and are catching the Phoenix up;again smaller seeds. All are in the airing cupboard where its warm.

[Howeadypsis]

In my sort above where you see 'refer' it should be seeds! I'm using my phone with predictive text and it often gets it wrong.

Kris,you could try using clay pots. The reason I say this is when you tap the pot it will ring like a bell if the soil is dry and need water,but if the soil is wet you will hear a dull sound.

[RadPalms]

Thanks Bo for bumping.....Alot of great information....Gotta love the learning.....And thank god for all the people at the IPS that don't mind sharing all the things they have learned over the years.  I hope one day I will be able to contribute to others.

Curt

[Guest Lucinda]

I fervently echo the thanks for the generous sharing of knowledge seen on these boards since I began anonymously reading for the past month or so. Do appreciate the info on growing my a. merrili. and am flabbergasted to learn that there's a year of growing ahead before I see anything that looks like a real palm. Palm addicts have gotta be experts at delayed gratification.

The search feature is wonderful, too.

Lucinda

[bgl]

Lucinda,

Welcome to the IPS Forum! And the key to satisfaction is QUANTITY! If you're only germinating a few seeds, it'll seem forever before you see results because you'll be looking at those little seedlings just about every day. But the more seeds and the more species you germinate, the less attention you pay to each individual seedling and before you know it you'll have some nice sized specimens!!

Bo-Göran

[wendisplantation]

Hello Lucinda-

Nice to have you on the board! Have fun!

[Kris]

(Howeadypsis @ May 07 2007,15:12)

QUOTE

Kris,

you could try using clay pots. The reason I say this is when you tap the pot it will ring like a bell if the soil is dry and need water,but if the soil is wet you will hear a dull sound.

Dear Larry  

thanks for the info.and i have tried that option too ! but the smae result.the climate here helps germination of seeds but the constant hot climate tries to dry-up the young saplings or the top soil.leading to water often.can you believe that i germinated japanese maples & sugar maples.but the result the same_Damp off ! the stem itself rots..no fungus seen in the soil !

if ready mades are avaliable i am more willing to buy those than to put myself in such situation.but indian are happy with royal,coconuts,areca palms,caryota...that's all.

Okay as the saying goes try try try again till i get at least

one healthy specimen to be grown in my garden.

Love,

Kris  

[Howeadypsis]

Kris sounds like you need a shade house,somewhere the sun doesn't get to so much so it will be cooler.

[Howeadypsis]

(Lucinda @ May 08 2007,01:27)

QUOTE

am flabbergasted to learn that there's a year of growing ahead before I see anything that looks like a real palm. Palm addicts have gotta be experts at delayed gratification.

Well i grow my own bonsai from scratch so I'm used to waiting

Palms are quick in comparison.

[bgl]

For seeds that I consider easy germinators I simply use open trays out in the shadehouse, where they are exposed to rain. No extra heat here, and they are also, predictably, somewhat slower than if I were to germinate them in plastic containers in the house. Here's a tray with Normanbya seeds. Planted the seeds on 21 Nov 2006 - almost six months ago. And probably a few more months before they're ready to go into separate pots. They probably germinated a couple of months ago, but still not really fast. Probably middle of the pack.

[bgl]

And another tray with seeds from Nov 2006: Archontophoenix purpurea. Again, probably middle of the pack as far as germination time goes.

[bgl]

A slightly faster germinator: Wodyetia bifurcata. These seeds were planted on 21 Jan 2007, and just started to sprout a couple of weeks ago. I.e. took them about 3 months.

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Bo

Great topic I think we will find many mixed results unless people harvest the seed them selves as it would be hard to tell how old some of the seed is that has come from another source, having said that I think Ravenea musicalis would have to be one of the fastest as they germinate before they fall from the tree, on the other end things like livistonia inermis can sit for 5 or more years waiting for the right conditions to germinate(e.g. fire followed buy rain) Also many species will sit and also wait till the conditions are right to germinate, so unless these species are cleaned and put down as soon as posible there will be mixed results.

Ps Bo that last photo of the Wodyetia seedlings (post No29) look like some Areca vestiaria have also fallen into the same pot?. or the tags were mixed up?

[bgl]

Clayton,

No, definitely no mix-up of tags and those are all Wodyetia seedlings.

Bo-Göran

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Bo

The seed closest to the tag the one that has germinated above the soil (rock) it is very hard to see and it does look like a vestiaria seed, can you see the one I mean?

[bgl]

Clayton,

I assumed that was the one you meant.... I'm convinced that's a Wodyetia, but will definitely check it out first thing in the morning!

Bo-Göran

[bgl]

Bumping this thread for Thomas.

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Bo

        Did you get the chance to check and see if that was a Areca vestiaria seed in with those foxtail seeds? You never did get back on that to me on that one.

[bgl]

Clayton,

Sorry about that! And definitely Wodyetia seeds. I collected them myself, and any confusion with the seeds is completely out of the question!

Bo-Göran

[Palm Guy]

good stuff guys, I learned alot just by the pics you showed me of how you germinate your seeds. I personally use individual plastic cups (lots of work). Next time I'll put them all in one container. However, do you find it difficult to separate the seedlings without damaging them?

Now, to add my two cents...I had lots of success with Verschaffeltia splendida seeds that i ordered from RPS. All ten have germinated within a month and a half...I'd categorize those as fast germinators along with the carpoxylon.  

Also, I'm finding that my bottle palms are quite variably. Most of them germinated within 2 months however 2 of them have just germinated after 5 months. Also, I had ordered some Sealing wax seeds about 7 months ago and eventually threw away all but 4. Now with the added heat in summer, one is starting to bust after being subjected to 55F-70F temperatures for about 2 months. I placed another order for sealing wax about 2 months ago and about 6 or 7 of those have already germinated. I think it had alot to do with seed freshness though. Just goes to show that you should never give up on your seeds.

Keep growing,

Mike F