Bugs in seeds

[David_Sweden]

I'm about to plant my first palm seeds!  One thing that worries me is the risk for bugs. I read how it is common to dip seeds in insecticide as part of germination process, hopefully that helps but I'm not sure the widely available insecticide (Thiacloprid) is good enough, and I would prefer not to try something less legal.

I'm wondering: What bugs exactly is it that people worry about getting, I'm guessing something that bores into seeds? If they bore into the seeds can't I spot holes with a loupe and flush those few seeds down the toilet? And if I should get a bug is it really a danger to anything but seeds, I mean do they also bore into stems or something? I thought stem borers would be a different species?

In this thread someone says freezing seeds for a week is efficient against weevils, and it sounds very believable, but wouldn't freezing harm the seeds? And he says it is important to completely dry the seeds before freezing but besides freezing being a potential risk isn't also drying probably degrading on fertility?

[PalmTreeDude]

  On 9/9/2016 at 7:56 PM, David_Sweden said:

I'm about to plant my first palm seeds!  One thing that worries me is the risk for bugs. I read how it is common to dip seeds in insecticide as part of germination process, hopefully that helps but I'm not sure the widely available insecticide (Thiacloprid) is good enough, and I would prefer not to try something less legal.

I'm wondering: What bugs exactly is it that people worry about getting, I'm guessing something that bores into seeds? If they bore into the seeds can't I spot holes with a loupe and flush those few seeds down the toilet? And if I should get a bug is it really a danger to anything but seeds, I mean do they also bore into stems or something? I thought stem borers would be a different species?

In this thread someone says freezing seeds for a week is efficient against weevils, and it sounds very believable, but wouldn't freezing harm the seeds? And he says it is important to completely dry the seeds before freezing but besides freezing being a potential risk isn't also drying probably degrading on fertility?

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I got Sabal palmetto seeds last year, and when I squeezed the seed, it cracked open and a little maggot fell out! They were in all the seeds so I just stomped on all of them. If you have a large amount of seeds, I would crack open about eight random ones, I know, it can be hard to do, especially if you are a palm lover! See what comes out and take a look at the inside of the seed to see how healthy it is. 

[PalmTreeDude]

I could not see any holes in my seeds, but they looked a little odd.

[David_Sweden]

Yuck! Were they big seeds? I can imagine more bugs in big seeds. How did they look odd? Did you check with loupe for tiny hole?

I plan to cut one of ten seeds in half with a razor but that's mostly to get a grip on freshness. Bugs I'm guessing often can be just a few in a whole batch so big risk you miss them even if open a few. Would be better if I could see holes with a loupe, or trust an instcticide, or at least feel assured they only eat into seeds so they don't spread to plants or my wood bookshelf etc.

[David_Sweden]

Sabal Palmetto Seeds seem to be the size of a small pinkie finger, 8 mm or so:

I right now have some Coccothrinax miraguama seeds which are almost as big (about 6 mm), 2 bags of 10 each. In one of them is a dead beetle which is almost the same length as a seed so it looks much like half a seed. Nice. They used double zip-lock bags but the outer one wasn't properly zipped.

[Nessie42]

When I soak palm seeds before putting them in the germination pots, I simply use chamomile tea instead of plain water. Don't know if that actually helps much, but chamomile is said to be antimicrobial and all and it feels less brutal than applying insecticide. 

[Pal Meir]

An analogue book with many answers:

https://www.amazon.de/Ornamental-Palm-Horticulture-Timothy-Broschat/dp/0813018048

[David_Sweden]

I just found a useful answer to my own question regarding which bugs that might come with seeds, in the article "A Practical Guide to Germinating Palm Seeds" from the April 1999 issue of Palms (Journal of IPS) by Jeff Marcus (who apparently has a nursery since many years with excellent rep) and Ken Banks (who owned a giant garden where he planted many palms). About bugs in seeds they say:

"Damaging insects such as seed-boring beetles may arrive with seeds. They may reduce germination and spread to other seed batches. To minimize these risks, seeds collected from the ground, whether in the wild or from cultivated plants, and seeds collected under unknown conditions should be soaked in a contact insecticide solution once the fruit pulp has been removed. The insecticide solution should be prepared at the same concentration you would use to spray for pests. Soak small, thinner-shelled seed, such as Pinanga, for 15 minutes. Soak larger, harder and less permeable seeds longer, from 20 to 45 minutes. Examples of these latter seeds are Mauritia flexuosa, Bismarckia nobilis, Parajubaea cocoides, and Jubaea child. After the insecticide soak, rinse the seeds in clean water for 20 minutes."

So based on this single source it seems the only thing at risk is other seeds. I will soak them in Thiacloprid  since I have some left.

Regarding fungicide they and other serious articles like this recommend it, however I believe fungicides with high efficiacy are not available to ordinary people (although if you want you can probably find such stuff at ebay). Chamomile tea is said by some to be a very mild fungicide (so it is not an alternative to the insecticides above) but I have no reliable sources. I think I will add another very mild fungicide I happen to have at home (an old Swedish preservative for food called Atamon containing sugar, Sodium benzoate and Benzoic acid). God knows how well it works but Wikipedia says Sodium benzoate inhibits growth of fungus without killing it (not a fungicide then but a so-called fungistatic).

[User00]

useful link for all

  On 9/17/2016 at 8:51 AM, David_Sweden said:

I just found a useful answer to my own question regarding which bugs that might come with seeds, in the article "A Practical Guide to Germinating Palm Seeds" from the April 1999 issue of Palms (Journal of IPS) by Jeff Marcus (who apparently has a nursery since many years with excellent rep) and Ken Banks (who owned a giant garden where he planted many palms). About bugs in seeds they say:

"Damaging insects such as seed-boring beetles may arrive with seeds. They may reduce germination and spread to other seed batches. To minimize these risks, seeds collected from the ground, whether in the wild or from cultivated plants, and seeds collected under unknown conditions should be soaked in a contact insecticide solution once the fruit pulp has been removed. The insecticide solution should be prepared at the same concentration you would use to spray for pests. Soak small, thinner-shelled seed, such as Pinanga, for 15 minutes. Soak larger, harder and less permeable seeds longer, from 20 to 45 minutes. Examples of these latter seeds are Mauritia flexuosa, Bismarckia nobilis, Parajubaea cocoides, and Jubaea child. After the insecticide soak, rinse the seeds in clean water for 20 minutes."

So based on this single source it seems the only thing at risk is other seeds. I will soak them in Thiacloprid  since I have some left.

Regarding fungicide they and other serious articles like this recommend it, however I believe fungicides with high efficiacy are not available to ordinary people (although if you want you can probably find such stuff at ebay). Chamomile tea is said by some to be a very mild fungicide (so it is not an alternative to the insecticides above) but I have no reliable sources. I think I will add another very mild fungicide I happen to have at home (an old Swedish preservative for food called Atamon containing sugar, Sodium benzoate and Benzoic acid). God knows how well it works but Wikipedia says Sodium benzoate inhibits growth of fungus without killing it (not a fungicide then but a so-called fungistatic).

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[Flounder]

I've bought and received seeds from a reputable European seed supplier. A couple of batches have had a seed boring beetle present, annoying but not infested. the usual soaking process tends to drown the little blighters without the need to resort to WMD's......unless a 10% bleach solution counts!

My point being personally I try not to use any chemicals in the germination techniques I employ. The chamomile tea idea sounds like it's worth reading up on. Have you tasted chamomile tea? No wonder bugs don't like it

BTW, I'm not a bunny hugger I'm tight fisted. I just don't see the need for the added expense of pesticides with money I could use to buy more planty type stuff

[David_Sweden]

Anyone good at bugs here? I have ½ mm long, light brown bugs in a pot with soil where I planted some seeds I got. I drew a pic:

Today I saw 5, all the same size. Since they either came with the seeds or the soil my only suspects were springtails (I wish) or root mealybug crawlers. I don't know of any other ones that could survive when the seedlings not yet have any green parts.

The pics of springtails I find vary, some have color similar to mine but then are noteably more oblong with body continuing far longer than where the last pair of legs are:

And the fact that I saw 5 today even before spraying water on the soil makes me think it's not springtails. They often walk quite quickly and the antennas move relentlessly. If I poke them they usually don't jump like I think springtails would, maybe they jump sometimes when poked but if so just a few body lengths.

If they came with the seeds they should have come as eggs since I did soak and clean them. The pics of root mealybug crawlers I find don't look much like these, they seem to be white and look like small mealybugs:

Any ideas? I was ready to throw them out but then though it might be best to try to identify them so that I don't worry that they have spread. They are now living far apart from everything wrapped in a plastic bag.

 

[Laaz]

I always soak my cleaned seeds in hydrogen peroxide for 24 hours which usually kills any bugs & fungus. Those sabal seeds need to be cleaned. Probably would have cut your shipping cost in half if they were cleaned before hand...

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Sabal seeds are the worst as far as infestation goes. Bleach will not kill the black beetle bugs that reside in sabal seeds nor will peroxide nor a 20 minute soaking with an insecticide solution. You must soak for a full day to completely eradicate the infestation and whatever you do never put treated seeds back in their former container.  

[David_Sweden]

Thanks guys. It was not sabal seeds though. Next time I might soak them in both bleach and pesticide however I doubt that the commonly available pestisides are potent enough, I know they are not when it comes to e g mealy bugs or mites in general. The seeds I got from big seed suppliers looked very well cleaned. These I got from a friend abroad. However I finally found a suspect that looks like the bugs I have and they are called "soil mites" (Gamasid mites). I have yet to confirm the size and that they are harmless but I think the longer back legs and fast speed indicate they are predators and that these probably live on springtails:

Any experiences with soil mites? I had springtails before but never soil mites. I have a book written by the foremost expert in Sweden on all plant bugs supposed to cover all bugs you can run into and she skipped soil mites so I'm in good company..

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

  On 11/23/2016 at 6:23 AM, David_Sweden said:

Thanks guys. It was not sabal seeds though. Next time I might soak them in both bleach and pesticide however I doubt that the commonly available pestisides are potent enough, I know they are not when it comes to e g mealy bugs or mites in general. The seeds I got from big seed suppliers looked very well cleaned. These I got from a friend abroad. However I finally found a suspect that looks like the bugs I have and they are called "soil mites" (Gamasid mites). I have yet to confirm the size and that they are harmless but I think the longer back legs and fast speed indicate they are predators and that these probably live on springtails:

Any experiences with soil mites? I had springtails before but never soil mites. I have a book written by the foremost expert in Sweden on all plant bugs supposed to cover all bugs you can run into and she skipped soil mites so I'm in good company..

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Never seen those in palm seeds before. 

[PalmTreeDude]

  On 11/22/2016 at 6:08 PM, David_Sweden said:

Anyone good at bugs here? I have ½ mm long, light brown bugs in a pot with soil where I planted some seeds I got. I drew a pic:

Today I saw 5, all the same size. Since they either came with the seeds or the soil my only suspects were springtails (I wish) or root mealybug crawlers. I don't know of any other ones that could survive when the seedlings not yet have any green parts.

The pics of springtails I find vary, some have color similar to mine but then are noteably more oblong with body continuing far longer than where the last pair of legs are:

And the fact that I saw 5 today even before spraying water on the soil makes me think it's not springtails. They often walk quite quickly and the antennas move relentlessly. If I poke them they usually don't jump like I think springtails would, maybe they jump sometimes when poked but if so just a few body lengths.

If they came with the seeds they should have come as eggs since I did soak and clean them. The pics of root mealybug crawlers I find don't look much like these, they seem to be white and look like small mealybugs:

Any ideas? I was ready to throw them out but then though it might be best to try to identify them so that I don't worry that they have spread. They are now living far apart from everything wrapped in a plastic bag.

 

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The first picture, I have seen those little things in my seeds before, sometimes they pop out and surprise me. If they weren't from the seeds, they looked like that. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by PalmTreeDude