Palms Growing Naturally In Their Boarder Limit?

[PalmTreeDude]

Does anyone ever see any palm trees growing naturally on their USDA zone limit? For example, if a Sabal minor's zone limit is 6b and there was one growing in zone 6b naturally. Yes, I know their native range is way out of 6b! What about Sabal palmettos on Bald Head Island, N.C. Does that count? Since it is 8a, or is it more like 8b? I don't know. Do you ever see palms growing naturally in their zone limit? I know they can naturalize (some palms) in their zone limit. 

Edited September 4, 2016 by PalmTreeDude
I have no clue why I put "boarder" limit, excuse that!

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I think there are some Florida Royals growing naturally along there zone limit in the Palmetto/Bradenton area.  Just inland of there, it is a 9B Climate, but near the coast it is a 10A Climate, with the barrier islands there probably being 10B.

[RedRabbit]

1 minute ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I think there are some Florida Royals growing naturally along there zone limit in the Palmetto/Bradenton area.  Just inland of there, it is a 9B Climate, but near the coast it is a 10A Climate, with the barrier islands there probably being 10B.

There are some that naturalized in the Bradenton area, but I want to say their natural limit is somewhere around Naples... There's a lot of debate on what exactly their natural limit is, supposedly they used to grow in Volusia County but if they did then they must have all died one way or another. I think the only place they have always been for sure is Big Cypress and the Everglades.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

5 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

There are some that naturalized in the Bradenton area, but I want to say their natural limit is somewhere around Naples... There's a lot of debate on what exactly their natural limit is, supposedly they used to grow in Volusia County but if they did then they must have all died one way or another. I think the only place they have always been for sure is Big Cypress and the Everglades.

I remember reading something years ago that said there were many of them growing naturally as far north as the Tampa Bay area, presumably about 100 or more years ago before all the over development and destruction of Florida's natural habitats.

[RedRabbit]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I remember reading something years ago that said there were many of them growing naturally as far north as the Tampa Bay area, presumably about 100 or more years ago before all the over development and destruction of Florida's natural habitats.

It wouldn't surprise me too much. I think there are some nearly 100yrs old in Palmetto so they've taken every freeze the 20th century could throw at them and did fine apparently. If they don't live there due to the cold then there must have been some horrible freeze in the 19th century or prior... I guess the question is how they would have managed to get there in the first place, birds can only take them so far and I don't know if the currents flow north in that part of the gulf.

Hopefully Zeeth will chime in, I'm sure he knows definitively given he's from that area.

 

Edited September 5, 2016 by RedRabbit

[PalmTreeDude]

1 hour ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I remember reading something years ago that said there were many of them growing naturally as far north as the Tampa Bay area, presumably about 100 or more years ago before all the over development and destruction of Florida's natural habitats.

I read something in a book that said a little north of Tampa was about its limit for planting.

1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

It wouldn't surprise me too much. I think there are some nearly 100yrs old in Palmetto so they've taken every freeze the 20th century could throw at them and did fine apparently. If they don't live there due to the cold then there must have been some horrible freeze in the 19th century or prior... I guess the question is how they would have managed to get there in the first place, birds can only take them so far and I don't know if the currents flow north in that part of the gulf.

Hopefully Zeeth will chime in, I'm sure he knows definitively given he's from that area.

 

I heard now that they can be found naturally growing to about Cape Coral. But it is harder to find them! They are not like palmetto, that completely take over forests. If you see one out in the forest and it is not a nature preserve, it is rare! 

Edited September 5, 2016 by PalmTreeDude
Typo

[Zeeth]

6 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Hopefully Zeeth will chime in, I'm sure he knows definitively given he's from that area.

Way back in 1884, the Reasoner's, owners of Reasoner's nursery, went into the swamps of the everglades to get seeds from royal palms. They were the first to sell them commercially in the state, so some old streets in the area are still lined with them. They're naturalized now in Emerson point preserve in Palmetto, probably from seeds deposited by birds or bats. 

Here's is my most recent thread documenting them:

Here are some examples of the older royal palms in Manatee county:

 

[Dave-Vero]

Natural distributions of palms (and other plants) often don't follow the USDA zones, though palms are of course cold sensitive.  From another thread, an interesting comment on Sabal palmetto was that they tend to survive hurricanes, so live in places where trees get demolished.  They also can survive occasional fires.  I'd like to suggest a program to restore wild Sabal palmetto to the Buxton Woods area.  It's pretty clear that the species was native there, extirpated by human activity.  

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2016‎ ‎6‎:‎41‎:‎10‎, Zeeth said:

Way back in 1884, the Reasoner's, owners of Reasoner's nursery, went into the swamps of the everglades to get seeds from royal palms. They were the first to sell them commercially in the state, so some old streets in the area are still lined with them. They're naturalized now in Emerson point preserve in Palmetto, probably from seeds deposited by birds or bats. 

Here's is my most recent thread documenting them:

Here are some examples of the older royal palms in Manatee county:

 

Beautiful royals, Keith.  Judging by the size they get there in Manatee County, there is no reason to believe that they didn't exist there naturally hundreds of years ago, though probably not as numerous as they are in Collier County.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2016‎ ‎6‎:‎59‎:‎41‎, Dave-Vero said:

Natural distributions of palms (and other plants) often don't follow the USDA zones, though palms are of course cold sensitive.  From another thread, an interesting comment on Sabal palmetto was that they tend to survive hurricanes, so live in places where trees get demolished.  They also can survive occasional fires.  I'd like to suggest a program to restore wild Sabal palmetto to the Buxton Woods area.  It's pretty clear that the species was native there, extirpated by human activity.  

 

Dave, where exactly is the Buxton Woods area?   Anyway, I do agree they should be restored there.

[Dave-Vero]

Buxton Woods is the live oak forest, of sorts, running east-west from around the lighthouse toward Frisco.

[Yunder Wækraus]

11 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Beautiful royals, Keith.  Judging by the size they get there in Manatee County, there is no reason to believe that they didn't exist there naturally hundreds of years ago, though probably not as numerous as they are in Collier County.

As I continue to learn, it ain't all about cold. Royals (and buccaneers) have soil, sun, and water preferences which affect the chances successful reproduction. If the whole of S. Florida resembled a tropical hammock, we'd see a very different distribution of plants without a great change in zones.

[Joe NC]

On 9/5/2016, 7:59:41, Dave-Vero said:

Natural distributions of palms (and other plants) often don't follow the USDA zones, though palms are of course cold sensitive.  From another thread, an interesting comment on Sabal palmetto was that they tend to survive hurricanes, so live in places where trees get demolished.  They also can survive occasional fires.  I'd like to suggest a program to restore wild Sabal palmetto to the Buxton Woods area.  It's pretty clear that the species was native there, extirpated by human activity.  

 

There are transplanted S. Palmetto at least at some of the businesses on highway 12 in Buxton, and I am sure there are some planted at private residences scattered around Hatteras Island.  I bet there are already wild volunteers from these palms planted by via bird poo someplace on that island.  I know there are plenty of wild palmetto offspring from the thousands of transplanted landscape palms north of Bald Head Island in the coastal areas of NC, but they haven't had enough time to really trunk and become that noticeable.  An example that see all the time is at the WRC boat ramp at Wrightsville beach NC  (Google street view of volunteer S. palmetto).  Over the last 8 years they have really popped out of the brush and now can been seen obviously from the road.   I'm sure there are similar "wild" palmetto around Morehead City and Beaufort.  Also downtown Wilmington has some trunking "wild" volunteer palmettos growing as random street and alley trees.  

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

22 hours ago, Dave-Vero said:

Buxton Woods is the live oak forest, of sorts, running east-west from around the lighthouse toward Frisco.

Okay, thanks for the explanation of where it is.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

12 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

As I continue to learn, it ain't all about cold. Royals (and buccaneers) have soil, sun, and water preferences which affect the chances successful reproduction. If the whole of S. Florida resembled a tropical hammock, we'd see a very different distribution of plants without a great change in zones.

Alex, we have royals growing here in straight sand on the east side of Corpus Christi near the water.  I planted 2 in my backyard over the last 3 years, a Cuban Royal and a Florida Royal.  My backyard is about 98% sand, but I did amend the backfill a little and added some 100% organic compost as a top dressing, then mulched with organic Texas Native Hardwood Mulch, a fine shredded mulch, but the basic growth conditions are sand here.  In town, there are some nice royals, and there is a lot more clay soil and a clay loam type soil.  I am sure they prefer a richer more organic soil, but they do grow pretty good here in our sandy soil.  We just need to keep them well watered.  The Florida Royals do seem to really thrive in the hammocks in the Glades.  There used to be some really ROBUST Florida Royals and some really ROBUST Jamaican Talls on the south side of Lake Okeechobee in the rich muck soil there.  I assume they are still there.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Mr. Coconut Palm

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

10 hours ago, Joe NC said:

There are transplanted S. Palmetto at least at some of the businesses on highway 12 in Buxton, and I am sure there are some planted at private residences scattered around Hatteras Island.  I bet there are already wild volunteers from these palms planted by via bird poo someplace on that island.  I know there are plenty of wild palmetto offspring from the thousands of transplanted landscape palms north of Bald Head Island in the coastal areas of NC, but they haven't had enough time to really trunk and become that noticeable.  An example that see all the time is at the WRC boat ramp at Wrightsville beach NC  (Google street view of volunteer S. palmetto).  Over the last 8 years they have really popped out of the brush and now can been seen obviously from the road.   I'm sure there are similar "wild" palmetto around Morehead City and Beaufort.  Also downtown Wilmington has some trunking "wild" volunteer palmettos growing as random street and alley trees.  

I thought the native truly wild population of Sabals ranged up to the southernmost coastal area of North Carolina.

[Yunder Wækraus]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Alex, we have royals growing here in straight sand on the east side of Corpus Christi near the water.  I planted 2 in my backyard over the last 3 years, a Cuban Royal and a Florida Royal.  My backyard is about 98% sand, but I did amend the backfill a little and added some 100% organic compost as a top dressing, then mulched with organic Texas Native Hardwood Mulch, a fine shredded mulch, but the basic growth conditions are sand here.  In town, there are some nice royals, and there is a lot more clay soil and a clay loam type soil.  I am sure they prefer a richer more organic soil, but they do grow pretty good here in our sandy soil.  We just need to keep them well watered.  The Florida Royals do seem to really thrive in the hammocks in the Glades.  There used to be some really ROBUST Florida Royals and some really ROBUST Jamaican Talls on the south side of Lake Okeechobee in the rich muck soil there.  I assume they are still there.

Yep, they *can* grow a great many places where they never seem to naturalize. I think folks forget that it's not easy for most plants make it outside of their preferred habitat without human intervention. A plant's ability to survive in a zone with human interference means nothing with regard to a plant's ability to naturalize in the same zone.

[Joe NC]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I thought the native truly wild population of Sabals ranged up to the southernmost coastal area of North Carolina.

"Native Wild" Sabal palmetto are restricted to only one location in NC, on Bald Head Island.  They were apparently historically documented from Hatteras Island also.  These islands are likely the only two places where they survived some low winter temperatures of the "Little Ice Age" (1300-1850) probably previously having a more broad and continuous distribution at the northern most extreme of their range .  I think now this species is slowly expanding their wild reproducing range northward again with the help of all the landscape planted florida transplants providing seed.  Also large palmetto in the wild seem to be absent or very rare from about the NC border to until somewhere just north of Charleston going down the coast of SC. 

[Dave-Vero]

The Manual of the Vascular Flora of the Carolinas (1968) placed Sabal palmetto in all the coastal Carolina counties from Brunswick, NC (Bald Head) southward, though there wasn't a specimen from Charleston County.  A blip.  

Flora of the Southern and Mid-Atlantic States by Alan S. Weakley (pdf 2015) is a direct continuation of that earlier project.  His comments on S. palmetto quote a 19th century botanist:  

Periodic disturbance by hurricanes helps maintain populations of Sabal palmetto, which survives winds and flooding that topple or kill Quercus virginiana. Curtis (1883) reports that "Cape Hatteras is, or was, the northern limit of this Palm... It is to be deeply regretted, however, that a reckless indifference to the future, which has been charged as a characteristic of Americans, is likely to efface, at no very distant time, every vestige of this interesting ornament of our coast. The inner portion of the young plant is very tender and palatable, somewhat resembling the Artichoke and Cabbage in taste (hence its name of Cabbage Tree), and is often taken for pickling, and the stock is ruined by the process. Thus for a pound or two of pickles, no better either than many other kinds, the growth of half a century is destroyed in a moment, and posterity left to the wretched inheritance of vain mourning for the loss of the greatest beauty of our maritime forest." 

___________

The Curtis reference is missing from the bibliography; I haven't found it.  Elbert Little's famously thorough tree atlas of the US didn't include Cape Hatteras.

Bruce Byers has photos of what are clearly S. palmetto leaves.  

Edited September 15, 2016 by Dave-Vero
add link

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2016‎ ‎10‎:‎18‎:‎28‎, Yunder Wækraus said:

Yep, they *can* grow a great many places where they never seem to naturalize. I think folks forget that it's not easy for most plants make it outside of their preferred habitat without human intervention. A plant's ability to survive in a zone with human interference means nothing with regard to a plant's ability to naturalize in the same zone.

That makes sense.  The extra help we give our plants allows them to grow in areas they wouldn't naturally grow.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2016‎ ‎10‎:‎26‎:‎02‎, Joe NC said:

"Native Wild" Sabal palmetto are restricted to only one location in NC, on Bald Head Island.  They were apparently historically documented from Hatteras Island also.  These islands are likely the only two places where they survived some low winter temperatures of the "Little Ice Age" (1300-1850) probably previously having a more broad and continuous distribution at the northern most extreme of their range .  I think now this species is slowly expanding their wild reproducing range northward again with the help of all the landscape planted florida transplants providing seed.  Also large palmetto in the wild seem to be absent or very rare from about the NC border to until somewhere just north of Charleston going down the coast of SC. 

Interesting.  I wonder just what the coldest low temps were over that period?  I remembering reading about a year in the 1800's that was called "The Year Without A Summer" in the South, because temps were so far below normal even in the summer time.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

4 hours ago, Dave-Vero said:

The Manual of the Vascular Flora of the Carolinas (1968) placed Sabal palmetto in all the coastal Carolina counties from Brunswick, NC (Bald Head) southward, though there wasn't a specimen from Charleston County.  A blip.  

Flora of the Southern and Mid-Atlantic States by Alan S. Weakley (pdf 2015) is a direct continuation of that earlier project.  His comments on S. palmetto quote a 19th century botanist:  

Periodic disturbance by hurricanes helps maintain populations of Sabal palmetto, which survives winds and flooding that topple or kill Quercus virginiana. Curtis (1883) reports that "Cape Hatteras is, or was, the northern limit of this Palm... It is to be deeply regretted, however, that a reckless indifference to the future, which has been charged as a characteristic of Americans, is likely to efface, at no very distant time, every vestige of this interesting ornament of our coast. The inner portion of the young plant is very tender and palatable, somewhat resembling the Artichoke and Cabbage in taste (hence its name of Cabbage Tree), and is often taken for pickling, and the stock is ruined by the process. Thus for a pound or two of pickles, no better either than many other kinds, the growth of half a century is destroyed in a moment, and posterity left to the wretched inheritance of vain mourning for the loss of the greatest beauty of our maritime forest." 

___________

The Curtis reference is missing from the bibliography; I haven't found it.  Elbert Little's famously thorough tree atlas of the US didn't include Cape Hatteras.

Bruce Byers has photos of what are clearly S. palmetto leaves.  

It would make sense that they grew as far north as the coastal parts of Central North Carolina since they seem to be cold hardy enough to survive the average lowest winter lows there.  It's a sad commentary on the American psyche of self indulgence and "to Hell with the consequences" that has lead to the destruction of so much natural habitat.  It seems that when it comes to consumption as well as making a profit NOTHING is sacred in America.

[Dave-Vero]

Cape Hatteras was probably a half-decent place for growing cabbage and perhaps brussels sprouts, but I think folks there may have been somewhat veggie-hungry.