Coccothrinax miraguama leaves

[David_Sweden]

Coccothrinax miraguama is really beautiful (even when small) and I can't see any reason why it shouldn't do nicely in a sunny window indoors, so I'm thinking of getting one. But it is strange how they look a bit different on all pics I find. The following 5 young ones are all rougly 1 meter incl pot I think:

The first 2 pics are the prettiest I think (in fact I think they are the same individual). The 3rd pic is really nice but leaves are a bit wider and shorter, and the 4th even more so. The 5th pic has drooping leaves. Even with my limited knowledge I'd say this is not a Coccothrinax miraguama, since I think they should have stiff non-drooping leaves in a circular shape, but it comes from Palmpedia which is very trustworthy.

A few bigger specimens:

The first two pics look like they can be grown-up versions of the 3rd of the young ones above, and look very nice. The 3rd pic is 15 years old and fronds aren't very circular, leaves not very stiff (some drooping), all in all not the prettiest, and lacking what I thought was the main characteristics. They are all from Palmpedia.

According to Palmpedia there are 4 subspecies: arenicola, havanensis, miraguama, and roseocarpa. These are supposed to be havanensis:

These are supposed to be roseocarpa:

And these are supposed to be arenicola:

Regarding "supspecies miraguama" I don't know if that is the same as Coccothrinax miraguama without a subspecies i e "normal Coccothrinax miraguama"? In any case I can't find any pics of it.

So I was hoping to find one that definitely has non-drooping stiff leaves placed in a perfect circle as in the first 3 pics in bunch 1, and the first 2 pics in bunch 2. That seems to leave out havanensis (which are not very circular) and maybe also roseocarpa. But arenicola looks like I hope I think. And maybe also (some of) the ones with no subspecies mentioned? Most of all I'd like to find one like the first 2 pics but maybe that's just how some look when they are very young? Or is it depending on lighting situation etc?

The third pic is available to buy. Can I hope that when 2 to 3 meters high it will look like I'm hoping, i e like the first 2 pics in "bunch 2", or the arenicola pics?

[David_Sweden]

Nobody here is good at differences between Coccothrinax miraguamas?

[kurt decker]

Why don't you repost only the plant you are looking for opinion on. Very confusing post

[mike in kurtistown]

There are many good pictures of Coccothrinax leaves on the site Palm Nut Pages maintained by Paul Craft.

 

[aztropic]

Most palms will vary visually with differences in sun exposure.Here is a C.miraguama I grew from seed that was recently moved from shade to full sun.Notice the short thick fronds vs the long thin ones on the same plant.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona 

[Cindy Adair]

4 hours ago, aztropic said:

Most palms will vary visually with differences in sun exposure.Here is a C.miraguama I grew from seed that was recently moved from shade to full sun.Notice the short thick fronds vs the long thin ones on the same plant.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona 

Very interesting. Mine is supposed to be v. roseocarpa I think and has been in way too much shade. I have cleared lots but still at best in partial shade and has the narrow leaflets.

After dawn maybe I can add some photos. I understand these hybridize so frequently that identification can be a challenge.

[David_Sweden]

Thanks aztropic, that is a really illustrative image, explains a lot.

Kurt, I am not asking about a specific individual. I think it's strange that the fronds don't look similar in different pictures. Some are very different, and can't be explained by lighting alone.

I would like to get one with circular fronds and stiff leaves like in the first 3 pics.

In the first 8 pics, No. 5 and 8 has drooping leaves (and No. 8 also not very circular). The other differences can probably be explained by different lighting as aztropic says.

The pics after that are collections for each subspecies, showing fronds, and trying to determine if I should be on the lookout for a specific subspecies.

After all this I am wondering:
If I want to get one with circular fronds and stiff leaves, is it then arenicola I should search for? Or any one with no subspecies mentioned that looks fine as a juvenile? Definitely not havanensis and maybe not roseocarpa? And what about "Coccothrinax miraguama supspecies miraguama", is that the same as "Coccothrinax miraguama" without supspecies mentioned?

[Cindy Adair]

This supposed C. miraguama v. roseocarpa has been in the ground since 2012. Very stiff leaves. 

[David_Sweden]

Thanks! Cute! 

[kurt decker]

David. Way too much. Half of your pictures aren't miriguama. Little miriguamas can vary in leaflet  length, etc., but are always stiffer, more silver, and more circular than barbadensis family plants. All four miriguama subspecies are identicle in leaf and trunk thatch. They are divided only by floral and fruit characteristics. So if you get a miriguama of any type, you are good. They are outstanding palms, underated amongst coccothrinax

[David_Sweden]

The pics I think in my eyes don't look like I'd expect a Coccothrinax miraguama to look like are most of all number 5 and 8 (my guess would be a Coccothrinax barbadensis but what do I know) but those two pics come from Palmpedia and I wouldn't be the one to say Palmpedia is wrong. The pics in general come from trustworthy sites, you can even see the source by holding the mouse over a pic and check the file name.

[kurt decker]

I don't mind saying it. You are correct. 5 and 8 are barbadensis types. Trust your eyes. Lots of slightly misidentified pics out there. But your instincts are good. I like both types, but miriguamas really are much nicer. Thumbs up.

[David_Sweden]

Thanks. I just spotted another peculiarity. I don't know how credible realpalmtress.com are but they seem to have a ton of species in stock and have very nice pics. However for Coccothrinax barbadensis and Coccothrinax miraguama they use almost the exact same image but mirrored 180 degrees - or are they really that similar?

I think they both look like miriguamas. Here are 3 pics from Junglemusic with more drooping leaves and less perfect circles:

[kurt decker]

David, they are very distinct, once you've seen a bunch of them. The barbadensis types are more relaxed, more tropical looking. Miriguamas are  a little more formal and sculptural. The one you seem to want is miriguama for sure. There are a ton of stock pictures on the internet, i'm not sure that's a reliable way to gauge someones's stock. Just ask the vender to email you a pic of the exact plant you are buying. You can tell them apart.

[David_Sweden]

I'm thinking about growing Coccothrinax Miraguama from seed (have never grown palm from seed before) since it seems to look cute even when small and according to Mandrew is quite quick. Rarepalmseeds.com don't seem to have them in stock. There's a guy in Florida on Dave's Garden that sells them, I will ask him. Hope sending from the US is no problem. Especiesbelizetropicalseeds.com have them, but seem dubious. Exotischezaden.nl have them and are in Europe and are not very expensive, but have some rather bad reviews here.

Any more ideas? Wouldn't want duds or even worse the wrong species.

[kurt decker]

David, give me an address or email or message me, i'm not sure exactly how it works, and i will send you some miriguama variety havanensis seeds. I have a big bag of them on my desk right now from my own trees, which were wild collected in cuba by dale holton in 1997.