frost or below zero temperature ?

[Mohsen]

This morning @7:00 am we had 1c temperature ( as shown by my gauges) and I saw some light frost on grasses and garbage bin’s lid …

My question is , the does damage to palms come from temperature below 0 or as in my case with frost even above 0 ? We normally having this coldness 1,0,-1 only for max 2 hours and then it will be back to above 0 and if it's sunny quickly to above 10c…

I am worry about my Wodyetia bifurcate, Dypsis decaryi and Bizzie which they might be exposed to that light frost …I think my 2 Hedyscepe canterburyana and Rhopalostylis Sapida (Oceana) Chatham Island should be fine as they are protected and might have 2 degree above what my above mentioned palms are experiencing…

I am not lucky to be in Sydney and don't have its mild winter , alas I get into palm after we bought this property otherwise I would chose another suburb  

still not sure if I am in 9a, 9b or 10a coldness zone?

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Those temperatures i have at least 9 times during winter and never had any damage here unless you get down to  - 2 C -   or  - 3 C like Sydney suburbs way out west like  Richmond ,  Mt Druit or Penrith you should be fine. Where were you located again what suburb.?

Coastal  Sydney and harbor suburbs have never seen below 2 C.  If you have seen  mature Kentia palms growing around your area that look good through winter all your palms should be fine as Kentias dont like heavy frost and burn easily.

 

cheers

Troy

[Mohsen]

Just now, Tassie_Troy1971 said:

Those temperatures i have at least 9 times during winter and never had any damage here unless you get down to  - 2 C -   or  - 3 C like Sydney suburbs way out west like  Richmond ,  Mt Druit or Penrith you should be fine. Where were you located again what suburb.?

Coastal  Sydney and harbor suburbs have never seen below 2 C.  If you have seen  mature Kentia palms growing around your area that look good through winter all your palms should be fine as Kentias dont like heavy frost and burn easily.

 

cheers

Troy

Thanks Troy

we are at Thornleigh...it is not very west at all...actually its neighbour suburb, Hornsby is having at least 3c higher than us...

There are mature Kentia not in our street but the next street so hopefully that's a good sign... we always have the minimum between 6:00 AM to 7:00 am and then it will be warmer in 2 hours...

I am more worry for my Foxtasil but we will see...

BTW, how do you measure your temperature? are using gauges? if yes ,which locations of your garden it is installed?

[Pip]

I'm not sure if the Kentia palm is a great indicator palm for frost. I have friends in the Adelaide Hills with two mature specimens on their property. The suburb is Cherry Gardens and it gets regular frost through winter and is at an altitude were very light snow can fall. Those two palms that seem happy and would have to be growing in that location for fifty years.

[Phoenikakias]

11 minutes ago, Pip said:

I'm not sure if the Kentia palm is a great indicator palm for frost. I have friends in the Adelaide Hills with two mature specimens on their property. The suburb is Cherry Gardens and it gets regular frost through winter and is at an altitude were very light snow can fall. Those two palms that seem happy and would have to be growing in that location for fifty years.

Phil, those are good news for me and ambiguous for Mo.

[Mohsen]

1 hour ago, Pip said:

I'm not sure if the Kentia palm is a great indicator palm for frost. I have friends in the Adelaide Hills with two mature specimens on their property. The suburb is Cherry Gardens and it gets regular frost through winter and is at an altitude were very light snow can fall. Those two palms that seem happy and would have to be growing in that location for fifty years.

Thanks Pip

how about Majesty Palm? how cold hardy is it? I forgot about it ? I assume the Beccariophoenix alfredii , Archontophoenix cunninghamiana and Kentiopsis oliviformis are fine with light frost ?

[steve99]

I had a light frost here on Monday morning and everything is fine.  My largest Foxtail has endured  winter frosts for the last 15 years.      All the palms you mention should be fine after light frosts, especially the Bizzy.  

 

[Mohsen]

35 minutes ago, steve99 said:

I had a light frost here on Monday morning and everything is fine.  My largest Foxtail has endured  winter frosts for the last 15 years.      All the palms you mention should be fine after light frosts, especially the Bizzy.  

 

Thanks Steve

Your comment is comforting

BTW, which US cold hardiness zone do you think your location would be fit best ?

[Ben in Norcal]

22 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Steve

Your comment is comforting

BTW, which US cold hardiness zone do you think your location would be fit best ?

From everything I have read, I think you are about the same as me - borderline 9b/10a.  Just my guess though!

[Mohsen]

1 hour ago, Ben in Norcal said:

From everything I have read, I think you are about the same as me - borderline 9b/10a.  Just my guess though!

Thanks Ben

that would be great if you let me know which palms you are successfully growing in your garden,this is my first winter here with my palms...

[Ben in Norcal]

59 minutes ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Ben

that would be great if you let me know which palms you are successfully growing in your garden,this is my first winter here with my palms...

Oh gosh, dozens and dozens of species - I don't have a list. But if you have specific questions, drop me a PM and I will try to help.

You can probably grow even more than me - I think you are a touch warmer and get significantly more rain.

[Bennz]

Hi Mohsen,

 

 

Are there any banana plants growing on your street or immediate area? Bananas are good frost indicator plants, they show signs of damage fairly quickly. If the banana look ok the palms should be fine.

I think the Sydney area has the advantage of cooling down a bit before any frost occurs, so the plants are no longer in active growth. Frost on actively growing plants is usually the most damaging.

 

As for USDA zones, is -1C the coldest it ever gets? If so you are in zone 10, probably 10a. Frost can occur when air temperatures get down to 4C. Your description of light frost on grass and garbage bin lid sounds to me like an air temp of 2C or so (a zone 10b frost!). I am a lot further south than you but on my 600 coastal acres the micro climate varies from a small patch of 11a through to a bit of 9b. Microclimates mean a lot in coastal locations.

 

[Tyrone]

10 hours ago, Mohsen said:

Thanks Pip

how about Majesty Palm? how cold hardy is it? I forgot about it ? I assume the Beccariophoenix alfredii , Archontophoenix cunninghamiana and Kentiopsis oliviformis are fine with light frost ?

Your majestics should be fine. I think −2C is where they show damage. Lower may not kill them outright and if you only occasionally get down that far they will grow out of it, as they are fast growers. All the species you mentioned will be fine with what you're experiencing. You seem to be getting a similar sort of cold experience to myself. I've been below zero 3 times in June, the lowest being −0.7C and my Pritchardias are going great guns and opening new leaves in it. Work that out. Wodyetia may spot up in cold damp conditions, but if the days spring back in temp fairly quickly they will handle it. If you've got good summer heat and humidity, especially on summer nights, a foxtail will motor right out of any winter damage it got by less than ideal winter temps. I've seen foxtails come out of severe frost while small plants in bags (-4, −5C). They looked ugly for a while and many died, but the strong ones came back really strong.

[Pip]

14 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Phil, those are good news for me and ambiguous for Mo.

Glad to be of some help. Snow fall on the Adelaide hills is a rare event it is said to be a 1 in 10 yr occurrence. If snow does fall it melts as soon as it hits the ground. I've not yet experienced snow.

[RedRabbit]

The conditions you describe are pretty similar to what we had this past winter and even the coconuts and adonidia went largely unscathed. I wouldn't be worried.

As far as your zone is concerned, you'd really need to know the annual low temp history going back at least 15yrs (a lot of people would argue for 30yrs.) If you can figure out the average you can determine your zone. 

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by RedRabbit

[Mohsen]

2 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

The conditions you describe are pretty similar to what we had this past winter and even the coconuts and adonidia went largely unscathed. I wouldn't be worried.

As far as your zone is concerned, you'd really need to know the annual low temp history going back at least 15yrs (a lot of people would argue for 30yrs.) If you can figure out the average you can determine your zone. 

 

Thanks RedRabbit

the problem I have is that we don't have a weather post exactly at our area... The closest is 12 km away and completely different temperature...

i an using my own temperature gauges and even using 4 of them in different location of our property I am getting diffrent reading ... How do you measure yours ? I am I talk them with 1.4 m height but then I am not sure which temp my palms shorter than that are getting ... So confusing  

[RedRabbit]

Have you tried https://www.wunderground.com/? Looking at Thornleigh, there are several weather stations there so if we're lucky one will be close to you and it will have a decent history.

Edited July 1, 2016 by RedRabbit

[Mohsen]

3 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Have you tried https://www.wunderground.com/? Looking at Thornleigh, there are several weather stations there so if we're lucky one will be close to you and it will have a decent history.

Thanks for the link

it seems it has more close to my property weather , but not sure where they got the info ?

[RedRabbit]

You can get the history here: https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=INEWSOUT126#history/s20130102/e20140103/myear

Unfortunately that station only goes back to 2012 so there are only 3 full years that are usable. During that time the average annual low came out to 3.5c (38.3f) which fits into zone 10b. Obviously though, 3 years aren't enough to say anything conclusive... Also, you said you've seen temps more in the area of -1c to 1c  so that station probably isn't reflective of your location (which could be for any number of reasons.) Based on what you've said I would guess you're somewhere in the 10a range. 

[Tyrone]

Microclimates have a bigger baring on what you can grow rather than what your raw zone category may show. As an example, I recorded a minimum of −0.7C on my weather gauge on the roof of my house, but just a few feet below and under my patio within 7ft of the roof gauge I recorded a minimum of 1C. That's a difference of 1.7C. Under canopy you could be 2 or 3C warmer in a radiational style cold night (still air, no clouds) compared to a reading taken 50m from trees in the middle of an open area such as a field. Not only that, things can vary in your area within a km or so, depending on elevation and any cold air drainage that may exist on your property. Many of the official weather stations in Australia are at airports. Airports generally have no trees and flat open fields for a few kms in all directions which is unlike many of the places that we live. A normal suburban block just next door to the airport will show different absolute lows simply due to trees and buildings and driveways etc. And difference in elevation from the ground will vary the absolute low temp at any given site. Your microclimate and understanding it, and knowing how to bend the macroclimate via a good microclimate will allow you to grow things that your neighbours and others nearby can't.