Sp kumaon and takil differences

[palm789]

So I am hearing and reading two things apparently they are the same palm and then they are completely different from eatchother.what the differences between these palms.

[Las Palmas Norte]

Kumaon Palm is the common name, while Trachycarpus takil is the botanical name.

Cheers

[palm789]

1 hour ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Kumaon Palm is the common name, while Trachycarpus takil is the botanical name.

Cheers

I asked this because on mypalmshop.com it shows 2 different products one being takil and other being kumaon and second product being takil.im confused as apparently kumaon is a cross between takil and fortunei yet another on a german website said the kumaon are nainitals.what does everyone think.

[Las Palmas Norte]

There's no doubt, a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding exists with many of these palms. Consistency among web-sites and seed sellers will probably be around for many years to come. Some things do get cleared up as in the case of the "takil" seeds collected nearly 20 years ago on a trip by Gibbons and Spanner to the region. Turned out they where Nainital palms and a retraction was made. Once palm seeds leave the collection areas in India and China and are dispersed, it's impossible to make any assurances as to purity and whether or not they where correctly ID"d in the first place. A number of these are names from the regions in which the seed was collected. Some are truly different and a unique species but again not always truly reliable from seed houses. They buy from "reputable" sellers and then on to you. Once on the market, it's not a sure thing.

There you go ... clear as the Rio Grande mud. Cheers, Barrie.

[palm789]

3 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

24 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

There's no doubt, a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding exists with many of these palms. Consistency among web-sites and seed sellers will probably be around for many years to come. Some things do get cleared up as in the case of the "takil" seeds collected nearly 20 years ago on a trip by Gibbons and Spanner to the region. Turned out they where Nainital palms and a retraction was made. Once palm seeds leave the collection areas in India and China and are dispersed, it's impossible to make any assurances as to purity and whether or not they where correctly ID"d in the first place. A number of these are names from the regions in which the seed was collected. Some are truly different and a unique species but again not always truly reliable from seed houses. They buy from "reputable" sellers and then on to you. Once on the market, it's not a sure thing.

There you go ... clear as the Rio Grande mud. Cheers, Barrie.

Kumaon Palm is the common name, while Trachycarpus takil is the botanical name.

Cheers

Thanks

Edited June 22, 2016 by palm789

[palm789]

3 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

19 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

There's no doubt, a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding exists with many of these palms. Consistency among web-sites and seed sellers will probably be around for many years to come. Some things do get cleared up as in the case of the "takil" seeds collected nearly 20 years ago on a trip by Gibbons and Spanner to the region. Turned out they where Nainital palms and a retraction was made. Once palm seeds leave the collection areas in India and China and are dispersed, it's impossible to make any assurances as to purity and whether or not they where correctly ID"d in the first place. A number of these are names from the regions in which the seed was collected. Some are truly different and a unique species but again not always truly reliable from seed houses. They buy from "reputable" sellers and then on to you. Once on the market, it's not a sure thing.

There you go ... clear as the Rio Grande mud. Cheers, Barrie.

Kumaon Palm is the common name, while Trachycarpus takil is the botanical name.

Cheers

I hope that someone replies on this topic that has bought either takil or their kumaon from mypalmshop.com.that can give some input on this and show some picture of both species.

[palm789]

I am still debating on if I should buy one from another seller and still not 100% sure if its a takil.from the picture of this trunk does it look like a takil to you.

[Las Palmas Norte]

I the early stages it may not be able to tell, as true characteristics have yet to emerge. T. takil has a much neater appearance at the crown and along the trunk. Fibers are finer and there's an obvious absence of the long ribbons which eventually create the shaggy look on T fortunei.

Here's a comparison ... fortunei first, takil in the second pic.

Cheers, Barrie.

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Las Palmas Norte

[palm789]

So basically your saying is that if I buy the trunked one it could be a gamble but the seller said its grown from genuine rps seed and has finer fibers. im planning on aquireing 1 of eatch variation of trachycarpus and takil is hardest to get especially in the uk.

Edited June 22, 2016 by palm789

[Sir Oxylon]

I have takil germinated from rps. They are only young currently with only a couple of palmate leaves. I also just recently purchased the Nainital, so that eventually I may be able to see the difference myself. I also have regular fortunei. I will post pics one day if I start seeing the differences. The paper: Gibbons, M., Spanner, T.W. (2009) Trachycarpus takil-lost and found, for now. Palms, 53, 96-102. from memory describes the differences. The cardinal feature differentiating fortunei (including nainital) and takil was the ligule feature illustrated well by Las Palme Norte's pics above.

 

[Sir Oxylon]

Some of the main differences between them from that paper are

takil: ligule short triangular, number of live leaves around 20, hastula 1-2.5 cm long, strongly waxy on leaf undersurface

fortunei: ligule long, ribbon-like, number of live leaves up to 100, hastula around 1.5 cm long, slightly waxy on leaf undersurface.

I would think that these features are most useful for distinguishing adult plant. May not be as relevant for younger plants.

[Flow]

Mypalmshop say they collected the "sp. Kumaon" in the Kumaon area hence the name but that it is neither takil nor fortunei (nainital) but looks like an intermediate, e.g. the ligulae are shorter than in fortunei but not as short (or absent) as in takil, maybe  a hybrid? Excellent comparison shots btw., Barrie. Anyways many people report the sp. Kumaon to be a fast, vigorous and coldhardy.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Flow

[palm789]

5 hours ago, Flow said:

Mypalmshop say they collected the "sp. Kumaon" in the Kumaon area hence the name but that it is neither takil nor fortunei (nainital) but looks like an intermediate, e.g. the ligulae are shorter than in fortunei but not as short (or absent) as in takil, maybe  a hybrid? Excellent comparison shots btw., Barrie. Anyways many people report the sp. Kumaon to be a fast, vigorous and coldhardy.

Im not sure if they are a hybrid.does anyone have one of these sp kumaon to share with us pictures and enlighten man with more knowledge

[Flow]

I didn't say it was a hybrid, just possibly. I don't have one but I am sure you will get good answers on the EPS board. Several people there have one and also Herbert from mypalmshop replies every once in a while.

[cm05]

On June 22, 2016 at 2:43:16 PM, palm789 said:

I am still debating on if I should buy one from another seller and still not 100% sure if its a takil.from the picture of this trunk does it look like a takil to you.

It looks like one to me, but I'm not a Takil expert.

[Las Palmas Norte]

Way too early to say with any certainty on that pic. The frond base looks yellowish and others brown and cut off ... rather premature in my opinion.

Cheers, Barrie.

[JMBreland]

Try the Southeastern (US) Palm Society. They have become quite the experts dividing hairs among the Trachycarpus spp. since that's almost the only trunking palm many of them could grow.

Look for the Facebook group "Southeastern Palms and Subtropicals" and check the Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board at http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/. 

[VA Palmer]

This is from https://mypalmshop.com/info/FAQ but no date:

"Is a Trachycarpus Takil the same thing as a Kumaon palm?

Mypalmshop sells real Trachycarpus takil. These come from the Kalamuni area. The Kumaon species comes from a border area between Nainital and Kalamuni and has characteritics of both. This plant has been tested in our own experimental garden and should survive around -20C unprotected. At the moment this seems to be the best Trachycarpus for the winter!"