Windmill growing in Cape Coral

[Cape Garrett]

Just surprised to see such a cold hard palm planted in the Cape.  Nice to see a large one.  Triple planted and skinned of all fibers.  I had one in a pot for years and planted out in too wet a location and too much shade.  It was 6 feet tall..died.  May try one again.  Pretty Palm.  Anyone else see these in South Florida?

[Cape Garrett]

Just now, Cape Garrett said:

Just surprised to see such a cold hard palm planted in the Cape.  Nice to see a large one.  Triple planted and skinned of all fibers.  I had one in a pot for years and planted out in too wet a location and too much shade.  It was 6 feet tall..died.  May try one again.  Pretty Palm.  Anyone else see these in South Florida?

Let me know if I am wrong about this species.  Looks like a windmill at least the 2 smaller ones do.  Could it be a Copernicia species?  At least the tall one?  Didn't see any spines on the petioles.  Also not close enough to inspect it.

[Pal Meir]

The petioles of the inflorescence are too long for a Trachcarpus, it looks to me like a Copernicia as you have already guessed.

[Ben in Norcal]

Trunks look much too beefy for Trachy to me too...

[Pal Meir]

Agree, the trunks of Trachycarpus fortunei are quite slender:

[PalmatierMeg]

Looks something like a Livistona. Trachies are pretty much a no-go here. They can't take the hot, humid days and sweltering nights. Many years ago I bought an unmarked Trachy I mistook for a Coccothrinax. It languished for over a year - never really grew - then keeled over dead.

[palmsOrl]

Trachycarpus just barely survive in Orlando and the very few I see look pathetic compared to those in North Florida for example.

[redbeard917]

Even here in north Florida they don't live long planted in sand. All of the nice ones in Tallahassee that I know of are planted in areas with clay soil.

[Palmaceae]

It is hard to see but the tall one almost looks like a Chamaerops or even Copernicia but the 2 small ones do look like a Trachycarpus, but as said they are just about impossible to grow here.

[Tulio]

The tallest one definitively Copernicia alba. If you look closely you can see the hooks/spines. Also, the inflorescences is a give away.

[Collectorpalms]

I wonder where the fine line of too hot and humid is for Trachycarpus Fortunei is.... only because they do grow in Houston, zone 9a/b which is very humid with night time lows in the upper 70s in the summer, about on par with Tampa. They also grow along the Riverwalk in San Antonio, which is regularly 100-105 in the Summer for weeks at a time and lows near 80.They also field grow them in the Valley, and it doesn't get much worse summer weather wise than that! Though they do not grow well here in my city mostly due to soil and water quality.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Collectorpalms

[Alicehunter2000]

I agree with the North Florida sand statement above. I have been trying here in the cold north and these things just languish and die for the most part. I gave one success next to the house where the soil is different. The big one I bought last year from N. Fla. Palm Guy ...has not done much even though I put good dirt down ....the jury still out on that one. ..... so yes....sand is a big issue with these guys.

[Palm crazy]

A great lookalike trachy but not the real deal I’m afraid. Which is probably a good thing considering the location. 

[PalmatierMeg]

Cape Coral soil is alkaline calcareous sand. If the climate doesn't kill them, the soil surely will.

[Cape Garrett]

Thanks all.  Agree it is a Copernicia.  

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Trachycarpus are extremely susceptible to root knot nematode.  Root knot nematodes love acid sandy soil.  The reason they grow better in New Orleans, Houston, and San Antonio is that the heavy clay strongly suppresses nematodes.  If you combine the nematode pressure here in FLORIDA'S acid sand, plus the long period of hot days and sultry nights, the combination makes Trachycarpus a short term plant here.  But if the soil is alkaline, nematodes are suppressed giving the palms more time.  There are some old windmills here in Winter Haven but they are in a courtyard surrounded by concrete which suppresses nematodes because of the chemical reactions between concrete and acid soil.  They were planted in 1989 but are in the twilight of their lives. In the last few years their canopies have declined and their dark green color has become lime green.  Still, they are approaching 30 years in this planting site and that's amazing for central fl.  Ironically the site would be perfect for thatch palms of some kind.  They are in this protected courtyard in the warmest part of town.  I doubt it's been below freezing in that courtyard 10 times since they were planted.

[Las Palmas Norte]

Trachycaprus , as pointed out, nearly always grow and look their best outside the sub or semi tropical regions. They seem to grow at near perfection out on our Island and much of zone 8 / 9 PNW. A couple of Google street view screen shots. Quite often the trunks are narrower at the bottom and widen when taller.

Cheers, Barrie.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by Las Palmas Norte

[Cikas]

Trachycarpus really do not mind heat or sun, if they have water. They love water.

Our summers here are very, very hot ( during the day and night ), but they are growing just fine in our Hot Mediterranean climate.

Also they hate sand ( for example they also look very bad here near sandy beaches ). They need rich, moist soil.

They also look very bad in dry conditions ( dry + heat is killer for them ). They are not drought tolerant .

I think that people in Florida have problems with them not because of heat and humidity ( they love humidity ), but because of bad ( for them ) soil.

Trachycarpus fortunei are just like Archontophoenix. They need lots and lots of water.

They look the best if planted near water. Some of them here are growing almost in water.

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by Cikas

[SouthSeaNate]

Trachycarpus fortunei look awful here, they get very skinny trunks & never hold a full crown of fronds & most of those look yellow & ragged...

[Cikas]

39 minutes ago, SouthSeaNate said:

Trachycarpus fortunei look awful here, they get very skinny trunks & never hold a full crown of fronds & most of those look yellow & ragged...

Give them more water.

[Walt]

For all intents and purposes windmill palms will not grow in south Florida. They sure won't grow for me in south central Florida. I've tried twice, starting out with 10 gallon sizes. The first one I put in full sun. It almost immediately went into decline, taking maybe 6 months to croak. About a year later I purchased another 10 gallon windmill, this time planting it in broken sun. No amount of watering kept this palm alive. There's just too much heat for too long for these palms.

[Ben in Norcal]

Heat for months on end is not an issue.  It's plenty toasty here for 6 months of the year or longer.  The issue must be that it doesn't cool down at night in Florida, or that it is humid.  I have a whole slew of Trachy species and they are fine with extended periods of 100+ degrees, and months of 80s & 90s.  But it cools down to 60-65 every night.  

[Brad Mondel]

Trachycarpus are flawless here in the upstate of S.C. We have clay soil and cool winters. I've seen them in California and they almost always looked like they were struggling to survive. 

[redbeard917]

Cikas is correct. It's very hot in north Florida for half the year. Hotter than south Florida. Trachycarpus can be seen thriving here...in areas with clay soil.

[Pal Meir]

Here as an example the climate data of Nagasaki where T. fortunei is thriving since a couple of centuries as an already naturalized guest (cf. also my photo above):

[SouthSeaNate]

16 hours ago, Cikas said:

Give them more water.

I don't think that it the only issue as some planted outside a bar nearby have an automated irrigation system, so get plenty of water during the summer, but those too look awful. I think it may be the hot & humid nights we get in the summer, Jubaea chilensis will not grow here for that reason.

[Ben in Norcal]

14 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

Trachycarpus are flawless here in the upstate of S.C. We have clay soil and cool winters. I've seen them in California and they almost always looked like they were struggling to survive. 

If you are looking at street plantings, they are vastly under-watered in our heat.  Well-cared for specimens look good here.

[Cikas]

Cleary not enough of water. In our southern European Hot climate they are growing great if they are planted in right rich soil and watered well. Humidity at my place is higher than on Malta during summer. And they do not mind at ali for these i conditions. Problems have only ones planted in bad soil and not watered well

Edited April 25, 2016 by Cikas

[Cikas]

7 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

I don't think that it the only issue as some planted outside a bar nearby have an automated irrigation system, so get plenty of water during the summer, but those too look awful. I think it may be the hot & humid nights we get in the summer, Jubaea chilensis will not grow here for that reason.

Cleary not enough of water. In our southern European Hot mediterranean climate they are growing great if they are planted in right rich soil and watered well. Humidity at my place is higher than on Malta during summer. And they do not mind at all these conditions. Problems have only ones planted in bad soil and not watered well

Edited April 25, 2016 by Cikas

[Cikas]

22 hours ago, Walt said:

For all intents and purposes windmill palms will not grow in south Florida. They sure won't grow for me in south central Florida. I've tried twice, starting out with 10 gallon sizes. The first one I put in full sun. It almost immediately went into decline, taking maybe 6 months to croak. About a year later I purchased another 10 gallon windmill, this time planting it in broken sun. No amount of watering kept this palm alive. There's just too much heat for too long for these palms.

Which type of soil you have at your place ?

Edited April 25, 2016 by Cikas

[Cikas]

13 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Here as an example the climate data of Nagasaki where T. fortunei is thriving since a couple of centuries as an already naturalized guest (cf. also my photo above):

Yes as can be seen there, summers are Hot and Humid.

[Cape Garrett]

Well I will say I do not at all believe that it is the heat and humidity here.  I had one in a pot that grew to be about 6 feet tall, full 3 feet plus of trunk next to my pool.  It did just fine until I planted it.  It croaked within months but I truly thought it was too wet where I planted it.  Probably soil here killed it.  Not heat, sun, or humidity.  It did great in a pot for years in Southwest Cape Coral.

[nick]

7 hours ago, Cikas said:

Cleary not enough of water. In our southern European Hot climate they are growing great if they are planted in right rich soil and watered well. Humidity at my place is higher than on Malta during summer. And they do not mind at ali for these i conditions. Problems have only ones planted in bad soil and not watered well

Cikas, Trachycarpus is a very uncommon palm here in Cyprus. Is does not really well. We neither have the rich soil nor the water they need and the cold hardiness is not a factor. From my experience our strong sun and annual sunshine are also not very beneficial. My T. princeps looks relatively poor although I take more care about it. Maybe some spots in half shade or shade in the mountains with plenty of water can be worth to plant them. Near the coast there are much more palms to go for to benefit from our climate.

Edited April 26, 2016 by nick

[SouthSeaNate]

23 hours ago, Cikas said:

Cleary not enough of water. In our southern European Hot mediterranean climate they are growing great if they are planted in right rich soil and watered well. Humidity at my place is higher than on Malta during summer. And they do not mind at all these conditions. Problems have only ones planted in bad soil and not watered well

Actually the humidity is much higher in Malta, we are a tiny Island surrounded by the sea after all. We regularly have dewpoints in the mid to high 20's celcius in the summer here at the coast with very warm minimum temperatures... As I said even regularly irrigated specimens look awful, so it isn't connected to lack of water IMO.

Edited April 26, 2016 by SouthSeaNate

[Cikas]

1 hour ago, SouthSeaNate said:

Actually the humidity is much higher in Malta, we are a tiny Island surrounded by the sea after all. We regularly have dewpoints in the mid to high 20's celcius in the summer here at the coast with very warm minimum temperatures... As I said even regularly irrigated specimens look awful, so it isn't connected to lack of water IMO.

Southern Dalmatia has 1.436,6 mm of rainfall on average per year. 160 mm during summer months. That is twice as much as Malta during the year. And 8 times as much as Malta during summer months. And we are also near the sea.

Example of our temperatures in july in °C .

 

As can you see we are hot during summer. Our minimum temperatures are very high.

Skinny trunks, yellow & ragged crown are symptoms of poor soil and lack of water. Trachycarpus frortunei needs the same amount of water as King palm for example. Even if some of them are irrigated, they cleary do not get enough water, if they have these symptoms .

Trachycarpus is native to parts of Asia with high rainfall and humidity.

Also as can you see on Nagasaki climate chartz ( where Trachycarpus fortunei is naturalized ), is very hot and humid during summer.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Cikas

[nick]

12 hours ago, Cikas said:

Southern Dalmatia has 1.436,6 mm of rainfall on average per year. 160 mm during summer months. That is twice as much as Malta during the year. And 8 times as much as Malta during summer months. And we are also near the sea.

Cikas, please bear in mind, Dubrovnik is much more north than Malta or Cyprus, e.g. the latitude of Barcelona and your annual rainfall is much more. Compared to your area we are completely dry during the summer months as you get also rain. Your climate seems to be better adapted. You can be lucky if you have success with your Trachy but this is definitively not a successful palm for our region.

[SouthSeaNate]

18 hours ago, Cikas said:

Southern Dalmatia has 1.436,6 mm of rainfall on average per year. 160 mm during summer months. That is twice as much as Malta during the year. And 8 times as much as Malta during summer months. And we are also near the sea.

Example of our temperatures in july in °C .

 

As can you see we are hot during summer. Our minimum temperatures are very high.

Skinny trunks, yellow & ragged crown are symptoms of poor soil and lack of water. Trachycarpus frortunei needs the same amount of water as King palm for example. Even if some of them are irrigated, they cleary do not get enough water, if they have these symptoms .

Trachycarpus is native to parts of Asia with high rainfall and humidity.

Also as can you see on Nagasaki climate chartz ( where Trachycarpus fortunei is naturalized ), is very hot and humid during summer.

You have more rainfall yes, but the temperatures & humidity are higher in Malta. Summer 2015 was incredibly hot, I had an average low of 26C in July...

For example average humidity in August at Luqa airport in Malta is 73% compared to 59% in Dubrovnik & annually the average humidity at Luqa is 76% compared to 61% in Dubrovnik. That is inland too, where I live at the coast it is more humid with higher minimum temperatures...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Malta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik

I'm not saying that lack of water isn't an issue, but I don't believe it is the only one. As I said Jubaea will not grow in Malta, I asked at the local gardens & they said they had been tried before but never lasted very long, they also do not like very warm & humid summer nights...

[Eric in Orlando]

I agree, definitely Copernicia alba.

[Cikas]

4 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

You have more rainfall yes, but the temperatures & humidity are higher in Malta. Summer 2015 was incredibly hot, I had an average low of 26C in July...

For example average humidity in August at Luqa airport in Malta is 73% compared to 59% in Dubrovnik & annually the average humidity at Luqa is 76% compared to 61% in Dubrovnik. That is inland too, where I live at the coast it is more humid with higher minimum temperatures...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Malta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubrovnik

I'm not saying that lack of water isn't an issue, but I don't believe it is the only one. As I said Jubaea will not grow in Malta, I asked at the local gardens & they said they had been tried before but never lasted very long, they also do not like very warm & humid summer nights...

That is not true. Summer minimum temperatures are Higher in Southern Dalmatia than in Malta.

This is an example of Malta temperatures in July.

As can be seen, temperatures in Malta are lower during summer, not higher. Average temperature here in July was 27.9 C, in Malta 27.5 C.

Average minimum temperatures in july here where 24.7 C, in Malta 23 C.

Also, Malta winters are also COOL. So, I do not see any reason for Trachycarpus to not grow in Malta if planted in rich soil and watered well.

Also I find very strange, your statement that Jubea can not be grown in Malta. Jubea can be grown even in Southern Spain, Southern California ect. In places hoter than Malta.

On Malta airport, temperatures are even lower.

Malta airport in July.

Humidity there is just 42.5 %

 

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Cikas

[NorthFlpalmguy]

Copernicia is my guess as well. Clay over 10% of the soil is about the only way I get my field grown windmills to thrive. The nematodes will pick them off fairly quickly in straight sand as mentioned, I have tried many times over. One way to delay the nematodes is to amend and lime the sand heavily to raise the PH. It is incredibly hot and humid here as with central/south Florida so I believe the soil is the determining factor.  The soil needs to stay moist at all times for maximum growth too.