Canopy

[MattyB]

Hey what's up dudes and dudettes?  Well, my wife and I just got news that our offer was accepted for our new house.  Yippeeeeee!   Lot's of work ahead of us with the move and all.  It's on Dictionary Hill in Spring Valley California (unincorporated part of SD county) about 10 miles from San Diego Bay.  Elevation is approximately 650 ft at the house and 550ft at the bottom of the property which is a skinny long acre that goes down the hill.  The bottom of Spring Valley which lies below is 300ft elevation to give you an idea of what kind of cold drainage this lot potentially has.  Maybe I'll be a zone 10B yet?  Bob Hastings lives next door and he did not freeze and only saw 35F as his lowest temp this winter. :cool:  

Here's a shot of the house from the street looking west towards Downtown and Coronado which you can see on a clear day.

Here's the shed which I'll convert into a garden shed and greenhouse.  Look familiar Jack?

Here's the lot.  It goes down the hill to the canyon/wash and then back up the hill on the other side.

This is where I need your help.  Obviously I've got a blank canvas and I'm starting from scratch.  I need a list of canopy plants (palms and dicots) that will grow fast, take sun the whole shabang.  I'm gonna print this thread out and keep it in my workroom and buy plants on this list for several years as my first plantings.  Thanks for the help.  I'm stoked!

[osideterry]

If the neighbor only hit 35F, you sound easily in 10B, maybe 11 most years. Looks like a lot of terracing to do outback. I can almost see the cold air racing away from the lot, down to the poor shmucks like me who live at the bottom of such a hill. And a hexagonal greenhouse project thrown in.

You need fast growth fast. Others will have many more recommendations, but I'd start with kings and queens, as well as some Bambusa oldhamii for defining some boundaries. For wide spread a Caryota gigas and a CIDP also.

[Scott]

Wow! What a spread! What a view! What a greenhouse! What a house! Congradulations dude!

[LJG]

Here is an old thread about the same thing:

http://palmtalk.org/cgi-bin....;hl=ljg

Nice place! Only 35 degrees? I am jealous. You have a nice ground floor setup. Enjoy the cost.

[quaman58]

Nice one Matty! Many years of happiness to you in it. I can see a future "rainforest of Spring Valley" in the growing! As for the canopy, I've thought a lot about that lately. My problem is that outside of kings, caryota urens, and queens, it's tough to find plants of any size that I can afford, at least in mass quantities. I've got tons of wonderful fast growing things like Syagrus amara, botryophora, sancona and psuedococos; Roystoneas, & the like. The problem is that they are mostly small, and seedlings are painfully slow for the first years, as you know. Another couple that plug along okay for me are Phoenix reclinata & Trachycarpus fortunei. (Yeah, I know. But Trachys that are well watered and fed & developed a suprising large, beautiful crowns).

I'm interested to hear others thoughts. Good luck surviving escrow!

Bret

[Shon]

Nice view Matty and congrats on the new home. Are you keeping the tractor tires? You seem very handy,maybe erecting a shade structure for the time being with 30% shade cloth while things grow. It would be cheaper than going the palm canopy route at least until things grow. I am doing something similar to my side yard albeit on a much smaller scale than what you have. With that climate you might get growth through the winter.Congrats again.

[Breadfruit Bill]

Congrats on the new home!  Very exciting!

I don't know much about Cali climate, but I know this is a cool canopy tree that works here... It can't get too wet it seems and grows like a madman...  Eucalyptus deglupta

http://eucalyptusdeglupta.com/trees1.htm

[deezpalms]

Congrats on the new house Matty!! So you should be able to grow any of the palms that I've got since your lowest temp was the same as mine, 1 mile from the beach in Oceanside!!

[elHoagie]

(MattyB @ Apr. 11 2007,11:43)

QUOTE

Here's the shed which I'll convert into a garden shed and greenhouse.  Look familiar Jack?

Real men build greenhouses from scratch, what's this conversion nonsense?

By the way, congratulations!  The new place looks outstanding.

[Alicehunter2000]

Congradulations Matt and Family,

First will the site be irrigated and soil type......for us Floridians

Anyway I'm always looking for shade trees on my lot as well. Some varieties that look tropical.

Golden Raintree

Bella Sombra Tree

Various Oaks

Southern Magnolia.......for deep shade

Loquats-medium size

Some Citrus varieties-medium size

Avocado-medium size?

Camphor tree.......may be invasive

Papaya-medium size

Chinaberry tree

Most of these can handle my 9a climate....so your climate would be a cinch.

RLR book The Tropical Look is a great reference.........it has a whole reference section on Large and Medium sized trees in the back. <----but you probably already know this.

A Bella Sombra Tree would be super cool looking I think........since I never saw one in person:)

And don't forget about the myriad of Acacia trees out there.....nice and drought hardy.

[Joe palma]

Ditto on the  congrats MattyB! Nice view and layout there! I can see why you are stoked. Lots of room and a virtual clean slate to start the landscaping with. Awesome!

Shon's idea might not be a bad one for some of the smaller areas that you will be putting younger plants in but you can't do that to the entire yard (well....you could but..). Tough getting canopy fast w/ out dropping the $$ or putting in something that you may not really want. The biggest canopy palms (at least that do well here) I'd have to say are the Caryotas, as you probably know. I'd start w/ a good size gigas somewhere and maybe a group of urens (3) or one of the others. Of course they won't be there forever. If you want cheap and quick you could dig up some good size queens that people are looking to get rid of (I know a few that need to be removed). Obviously not the most appealing. As far as fast goes, kings are certainly that. Multis for more canopy. Now that I have echoed what the others have practically said........

Joe

[ruskinPalms]

Awsome new house Matty, Congratulations! First off, I personally would want to preserve the overall view from your house. It is fabulous and a strong selling point if you ever decide to move again in the future. What I am trying to say is really think about the full grown size of trees and palms and don't block the view too much.  I, too, am curious how you plan to keep things wet. It looks pretty dry there. I am guessing the soil is clayish? I would definitely plant some avocado trees like David said. You might consider a ficus. You have the space to let a ficus spread out. Oaks are boring...Maybe consider Delonix regia. I bet you would get enought heat there to get some blooms and it certainy will never get froze back there. Cassia fistula would be on my short list too. These also fix nitrogen which can't hurt. You might try a Mango - beautiful canopy and good fruit.  Some fast growing palms would make nice canopy too. Can't beat queen palms for speed and cheapness. They really look good when watered and fertilized. I have doubts that Archontophoenix, Roystonea and any other fast growing crownshafted palms would be the best choice as the fisrt palms planted to form canopy - again, it strikes me as very dry and maybe even windy at your new house. They might struggle in dry wind and become more of a liabilty always looking dessicated and starved for water (maybe not though, I really don't know your climate there, I am just basing this on 2 pictures.)  I would plant some Washingtonia filifera's there. Fast, native, cheap and beautiful.  They also will add much needed palmate palms to what may become a very pinnate garden in the future.  Phoenix look like they would thrive there but they are pretty slow  Or, you can do like I have done in my much smaller yard and plant landscape "islands" to get started. I feel that closely packing the palms and plants together may actually help them create their own little micro climate and retain more moisture and heat. In your case the moisture part is most important.  I hope I have helped a little bit. Again, congrats on the fantastic new house with the blank canvas and climate that makes us all jealous!  

[MattyB]

Thanks for the responses and shared enthusiasm.  I'll try and answer some of the questions.

William I love that eucalyptus!  

Jack, I also hear that real men drive all their screws by hand too.  Well, I guess you could take that a few ways. ???

David, I wasn't aware of that section of RLR's book.  I'll check it out.  Thanks.

Bill, the soil is rocky on top of rock (Maybe Fouquiria could elaborate as he lives on Dictionary Hill too).  Part of the master plan will include keeping view lines clear in areas.  I'll only plant a "rainforest" in one smaller area so the heavy irrigation isn't spread out all over the lot.

[Walter John]

Hi Matty

Firstly, Congrats to both of you on the purchase. Looks bloody great, I bet your head is spinning at the palm planting prospects.

Don't just consider canopy, consider protection as well. Which way does the strongest winds blow, which direction is the full on summer sun, etc.

As far as palms go, and as long as the climate accepts. get some Dypsis lutescens, Ptycosperma macarthurii and Caryota mitis happening asap for protection, bunch em up, and Veitchias, Livistona and Archo cunninghamianas for canopy.

good luck.

[Daryl]

That looks like a nice lot. I can see the potential with some nice terracing and stone retaining walls.

What are you going to do for water? 1 acre's worth of plants can drink water like you wouldn't believe.  Can you sink a bore there?

As a temporary canopy you could plant macaranga trees.

Daryl

[chris.oz]

Matty,  Awesome location mate.    You have a large area of rainfall collection there funnelling into a gully.  Is the there a possibility to put in a dam at the bottom,   then pump the water up the hill to water your palms in the drier spots ?  Maybe a series of smaller dams ?  Palms like Archontos should thrive in the valley and create palm canopy for you.

[RRONNIE]

Hi Matty,

Mazal-Tov & may "Peace be with this house and with all who live here"..

Ronnie

[Ashton]

(MattyB @ Apr. 11 2007,14:43)

QUOTE

Hey what's up dudes and dudettes?  Well, my wife and I just got news that our offer was accepted for our new house.  Yippeeeeee!

Congrats Matt!

The only thing that I care about is what is the soil type? Did you dig any holes, add water and check drainage? I looks like it might be DG from your photo.

We'll plan the PSSC Spring 2012 meeting at your place. Cool?

Ashton

[MattyB]

Yeah, 2012 here we come...well maybe 2020.

Like I said the soil is rock.  I guess theres some DG on top but as soon as you go down a bit you hit rock.  The good news is that, from what Bob Hastings tells me, the rocks have lots of cracks and you can bust them out in chunks w/ a hammer drill or something like that.  He says that water just goes right through the cracks in the rocks too.  The impression I get is that it's similar to the Big Island of Hawaii, just not volcanic in nature.  There are goffers though so there must be some soil.  I think I'm gonna lay down aviary wire everywhere and bring in truckloads of dirt in on top to plant on.

Daryl, I hadn't thought of a well/bore.  Good idea.  I'll have to think about that.  It is called Spring Valley after all, there's many springs on these hillsides.  Probably a bit lower but not too far down.

Chris, I had thought about collecting the runnoff rain water from the gully.  We'd like to buy the vacant acre next door where the drainage pipe dumps water into the canyon.  That's where I'd do it.  I don't know if it would work though because we get most of our rain in the winter when it's cool and we don't need to water as much.  I wonder if it would last into the warmer months at all.  Maybe a big tank that's covered so no sun can spawn an algae bloom.  I'll think about it.

[Dave-Vero]

Water really does look like a concern.  Not having done anything with cultivated plants in California, I'm at a loss to think of native plants that would like your slope and whatever soil it has.   is.  California Native Plant Society seems a bit weak on advice.

It's my impression that southern magnolia doesn't like southern California too much, partly because it's native to acid soils (although it's happy in western Oregon).  And not many East Asian trees would be good in dry-summer areas.  I would guess that a fair number of desert monocots (things like Nolina and Dasylirion) would be hardy and happy.  

http://www.laspilitas.com/nurseries/escondido.htm has a nice website, at least.

I bet Quail Botanical Garden could be helpful.

I should confess that my yard's full of exotics, including two beautiful new Japanese satake palms, Archontophoenix, cycads, etc.  However, it's getting increasingly obvious that as the yard matures, it'll become more native-dominated.  Simpson stopper (Myrcianthes fragrans) a native shrub, is a bit slow getting started, but my plants are getting set to reach crape-myrtle size.  Saw palmettos, a Hercules-club, an Everglades palm, and so forth, will look terrific in two or three more years.  

I've  also found out here is that patches of planted native shrubs and trees become bird and butterfly magnets.  The scrubby-looking Florida Keys thicket at Fairchild Tropical Botanic Garden is the best place there to see birds.  

Anyhow, I look at your slope and wonder about discouraging erosion, choosing plants that won't easily carry a wildfire (um, that's a problem  here, too), and provide a good matrix for a palm collection.  Maybe some salvias or a Ziziphus parryi (which has a very close nearly-extinct relative here in Florida)--but it's probably too ugly to plant.  

And of course some of the Caribbean palms are hardier than you'd think and don't need much water.  A nice Coccothrinax, maybe?

[STEVE IN SO CAL]

Well done, Matt...now you're a land baron. Nothing better than having a big, private chunk of dirt so you can go outside to pee. (be on the lookout for a guy in scrubs, slightly balding and carrying a plastic cup).

If you're going to consider some guacomole trees, give me a shout. There's all kinds of cool new introductions that you won't find at Armstrongs. They do require water, though....but you'll reduce your Guac bill at the same time, so it's a wash.

[palmsrgreat]

Wow, great home Matt! I'm sure you and your wife are very proud and happy.

I know that is some prime real estate having lived in CA for a 5 years or so. I know it must have cost a little bit, but you will surely make your money back in the years to come.

If I were you, I would really invest in preparing your land for what you want to do. As you mentioned, bringing in soil etc will be the way to go. This is the BEST time to start a system for irrigation and drainage.

I have learned that in almost everything it is all about how you prepare the surface before you start the job. Take the time to bring in high quality soil and set yourself up for success with proper ways to water and drain. much easier now that later.

Good luck and be sure to bump this thread in a few years or so!

[paulgila]

thats great matt!woohoo!

[Alicehunter2000]

Did you know that there are bushes the size of large trees? In the Pampas grasslands in South America there is a "tree" called the Ombu. It is the only tree-like plant that lives on the Pampas because it does not need a lot of water to survive.

The Ombu can be found in Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay. It does not need

much water considering there is only 10-30 inches of rainfall a year in its natural habitat. That amount of water is not enough to support a lot of trees and even the Ombu plants are widely spaced because of the limited availability of water. Droughts can occur in the grasslands, so the plants that grow there often develop unique characteristics.

The Ombu is a large evergreen with an umbrella like canopy. It can have a girth of 40 to 50 feet and its height can reach 40 to 60 feet. It grows rapidly. Its wood is soft and spongy, soft enough to be cut with a regular knife. The Ombu often has multiple trunks and is the only tree-like species for miles. Its sap is poisonous, therefore the bush is not browsed by cattle. It is also immune to locusts and other pests. The bush is covered with dark, glossy, green leaves. It has greenish-white flowers that grow in long clusters. These clusters droop from the weight of the crimson, ripe berries that develop from these flowers.

The Ombu's massive, fire resistant trunks contain water storage tissue, an excellent adaptation for intense grassland fires which are common in this region. The "trees" have enlarged bases in which they store water. This plant is plentiful in the pampas regions. It grows naturally in these areas.

The Ombu is also known as the "Lighthouses" of the pampas, since the "tree" provides shade for gauchos (South American cowboys) and other people that are traveling through the grasslands. Sometimes the leaves are used locally for a hot drink.

The Ombu grows plentiful in the wild. It grows naturally in the Pampas grasslands. It is also planted in places like Southern California as a shade tree.

by Seth S. 2002

[Alicehunter2000]

Would probably look better with leaves.

[palmazon]

most excellent, Mathilda

what do you plan to do with those tires?

(tyres for all the Brits)

[Alicehunter2000]

one with leaves........planted in 1979 at 12 ft. Now over 100 Ft. Tall single trunk.

[Alicehunter2000]

I think the pic before this one was a hybrid. This Bella Sombra shows the canopy a little better.

[Alicehunter2000]

Can Gaston comment on these?

[Alicehunter2000]

Or Gileno?

[Gileno Machado]

Congrats MattyB and family.

Dictionary Hill...hmmmm very inspiring. I see palms from A to Z in your new lot, in the future... ::

I'd start with Archontophoenix purpurea, Brahea armata, Caryota gigas, D... (Don't forget the Syagrus botryophora cracked out from the shell...)

Canopy? Ask Jack elHoagie...And where did you put those coconut seedlings you brought back from Hawaii?

[Gileno Machado]

(Alicehunter2000 @ Apr. 12 2007,00:33)

QUOTE

Or Gileno?

Oops, sorry...The only Ombu tree I ever saw is that nice one at Huntington. I don't know where they've hidden these nice trees here in Brasil...

[Gileno Machado]

Zoom out

[Urban Rainforest]

Matty, Congratulations to you and your wife on the new house and that awesome piece of property. Both of my houses started with a blank slate and I would'nt want it any other way. Here are a few ideas that I have used for fast canopy in the past.

Dicots-

Peltophorum Dubium

Enterlobium

Spathodea Canipulata

Rauvolfia Caffra

Acrocarpus Fraxinifolious

Brachychitons

Jacaranda

Cassia Leptophylla

Monocots-

Bizzies

Para Tor Tor (very fast)

Archontophoenix- all

Syagrus- many

Livistona Decipiens

Surprisingly my Dypsis Leptocheilos has been very fast!

also Any of the Dypsis Madagascariensis. I have Dypsis Mahajanga and Dypsis Ainkaizensis trunking and growing very fast. I'm also thinking of trying a Butiagrus! Good luck Matty and have fun with it! Steve

[Don Little]

Congratulations Matty, that sounds like a prime location with an incredible view

[Kris]

Dear Matty_my buddy !

thats great news,and wish you all the best !

and hope magnonials,sabals,CDIP,Washys,Bizie Lady are they all comming to that sweet home of your's ?

wish you all successes in your endavours.

love,

Kris  

[chris.oz]

Fast,  pretty, drought tolerant and deciduous,    Jacaranda mimosafolia.  Ideal taking the edge off the sun in summer and opening out to provide warmth in winter.    However,  if you are not frost free........forget it

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Well done Matt and Jennifer

I acre of land, you are going to have years of fun designing, planting your gardens, we will miss you on the board because you will be to busy having fun in the back yard

Congratulations

Colin and Denise

[nomolos]

The normal edible fig

[Bilbo]

Congrats etc. Matty,

I shall add my two cents as its seems a free for all (Im suposed to be a pro!).

Plant tender ones at the top of that slope and tough guys at the bottom.

Frost (if any there) will run exactly like water and will run to the lowest level.

My huge bill is in the post! (Huh)

Looks like you have grrreat potential over there with that fantastico landscape!

Best wishes

Juan