Hardy palms and wet soils

[brattle_007]

why is it that wet soil in winter lowers the palm hardness to cold and frost?  For example: Canary Island  Date Palm in a dry soil can take temps down to  -10*C, but in a wet soil it only down to -6*C.

[Paul_T]

Maybe the damp solid freezes?

[nitsua0895]

1 hour ago, brattle_007 said:

why is it that wet soil in winter lowers the palm hardness to cold and frost?  For example: Canary Island  Date Palm in a dry soil can take temps down to  -10*C, but in a wet soil it only down to -6*C.

My guess is the roots are more likely to freeze when it's wet and extremely cold. I have this same problem, I should be able to easily grow Canary Island Dates and Jubaea palms but we usually get lots of rain during our cool winters. I'm still going to give them a try though.

[brattle_007]

1 hour ago, nitsua0895 said:

My guess is the roots are more likely to freeze when it's wet and extremely cold. I have this same problem, I should be able to easily grow Canary Island Dates and Jubaea palms but we usually get lots of rain during our cool winters. I'm still going to give them a try though.

 

In our Temperate maritime climate do get our very stormy winter. Most winter are mild. we do get cold winters temps with night down to -7/-8*c with low daytime temps rebound.

[NorCalKing]

Here in Nor Cal CIDP's grow 80+ ft and we get pretty chilly occasionally overnight. I think the difference is we always rebound to at least the mid 50's during the day, and we are very dry (relatively speaking).

[brattle_007]

24 minutes ago, brattle_007 said:

 

Deleted

 

Edited February 28, 2016 by brattle_007

[brattle_007]

2 hours ago, nitsua0895 said:

My guess is the roots are more likely to freeze when it's wet and extremely cold. I have this same problem, I should be able to easily grow Canary Island Dates and Jubaea palms but we usually get lots of rain during our cool winters. I'm still going to give them a try though.

If in winters you get highs of about 50sF/10sC daytime temp rebound, is with a go.

[nitsua0895]

1 hour ago, brattle_007 said:

If in winters you get highs of about 50sF/10sC daytime temp rebound, is with a go.

We almost always have highs near 60F during the winter but every now and then we can get overnight lows in the 10-15F range and from what I've heard that usually kills CIDP. 

[Matthew92]

3 hours ago, nitsua0895 said:

We almost always have highs near 60F during the winter but every now and then we can get overnight lows in the 10-15F range and from what I've heard that usually kills CIDP. 

Yeah, January 2014 killed many CIDP's even here close to the coast with a low of 17 degrees during which the entire next day barely got above freezing, other multiple nights in the mid to low 20's, and then 20 degrees in late January with a light coat of freezing rain. Ones that weren't killed were defoliated "within an inch of their life" with some of those irreparably damaged, now only producing deformed, measly leaves.

Now it could be that the freezing rain+20 degrees and the unusual number of additional hard freeze events punched the last nail in for many of them, because in 2010, we had a 17 degree low with no winter precip and not as many additional hard freezes, and although more than half the canopy was lost on many CIDP, they recovered enough to continue on just fine.

[brattle_007]

11 hours ago, Opal92 said:

Yeah, January 2014 killed many CIDP's even here close to the coast with a low of 17 degrees during which the entire next day barely got above freezing, other multiple nights in the mid to low 20's, and then 20 degrees in late January with a light coat of freezing rain. Ones that weren't killed were defoliated "within an inch of their life" with some of those irreparably damaged, now only producing deformed, measly leaves.

Now it could be that the freezing rain+20 degrees and the unusual number of additional hard freeze events punched the last nail in for many of them, because in 2010, we had a 17 degree low with no winter precip and not as many additional hard freezes, and although more than half the canopy was lost on many CIDP, they recovered enough to continue on just fine.

one of the biggest problems we have in North East England in most winters is that spears pull out from the centre in spring and the centre looks rotten in small and medium size CIDP with the ones that are not sheltered.

[jwitt]

I think it not so much the wet soil per se as it the less warm up during the day in wetter climates. Filifera in the wild grow in wet soil(basically swamps). While the SW desert can get plenty cold, the days below freezing are virtually non existent in a zone 8 and above, not the case for a wetter zone 8.  On a side note, CIDP surivived -10f and lower in Alamogordo NM in 2/1011. 

I think the greater diurnal temp allows a  palm with mass to survive lower temps than one in the same zone of lesser diurnal temp. the greater diurnal temp also means less consectutive hours below freezing in cold events.

 

There are large filifer grown in a warm 6b(Corrales, NM), unprotected for over 20 years in a water table of less than 4'. I would call that wet!

Edited February 29, 2016 by jwitt

[NorCalKing]

4 hours ago, jwitt said:

I think it not so much the wet soil per se as it the less warm up during the day in wetter climates. Filifera in the wild grow in wet soil(basically swamps). While the SW desert can get plenty cold, the days below freezing are virtually non existent in a zone 8 and above, not the case for a wetter zone 8.  On a side note, CIDP surivived -10f and lower in Alamogordo NM in 2/1011. 

I think the greater diurnal temp allows a  palm with mass to survive lower temps than one in the same zone of lesser diurnal temp. the greater diurnal temp also means less consectutive hours below freezing in cold events.

 

There are large filifer grown in a warm 6b(Corrales, NM), unprotected for over 20 years in a water table of less than 4'. I would call that wet!

I think you may be right. We get down to the mid 20's on occasion, but that will be for maybe 30 min and the next day it warms nicely back to the mid 50's. And I can tell you here they don't even miss a beat or drop any fronds.

[_Rob_]

I would agree with that last statement. Our challenge in Northwestern Europe is the low daytime temps during winter, rarely exceeding 12-15°C, and the damp conditions. The fact that the palm is in no growth state at these temps for months, and the continued wet growthpoint causes it to rot.

A warm up to 20C may lead to resident water to evaporate, and  a little growth avoids any wet points to stay & become weaker spots. For this reason, Brahea armata without any overhead protection is as good as dead even in a "mild" winter here, and Nannorhops in full ground is a rare sighting here, despite their respective listed hardiness numbers!

Roofing the palms is very effective though, whereas wrapping it up with poorly venting material is the worst you can do - the wind is our only respource to get rid of excess moisture at conditions with max 10°C & >90RH for 3-5 months straight.

[smithgn]

If it's a hard freeze (25 degrees and below, some would say even 28 degrees and below), then the water in the soil would, well, freeze. And freeze the roots along with it. Also, wet and cold equals fungus. If water gets in the crown, freezes, then thaws out, it's just sitting water and would more times than not produce fungus, rot, disease, etc... Also, the colder it gets the more so it weakens the palm and it is more susceptible to the aforementioned ailments. Hope this answers some questions, I don't know the true science to it, but that's what I know.

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, smithgn said:

If it's a hard freeze (25 degrees and below, some would say even 28 degrees and below), then the water in the soil would, well, freeze. And freeze the roots along with it. Also, wet and cold equals fungus. If water gets in the crown, freezes, then thaws out, it's just sitting water and would more times than not produce fungus, rot, disease, etc... Also, the colder it gets the more so it weakens the palm and it is more susceptible to the aforementioned ailments. Hope this answers some questions, I don't know the true science to it, but that's what I know.

Our freeze line is less than 6 inches soil depth. We go months with lows averaging less than 25 f. the soil(at least at root level) does not freeze, clay or sand. Our greater diurnal air temps are caused by the sun(which we have stronger and more of-esp winter) warming the soil. Freeze/thaw are also a daily occurance in the winter in this high desert.  

In a nutshell, our warmups come from the sun(consecutive days) and wetter eastern zones usually come from fronts or wind shifts. Just my opinion.

[jwitt]

I should also mention we are over 5000' in elevation giving another edge to dry air and solar radiation.

[Phoenikakias]

12 hours ago, _Rob_ said:

I would agree with that last statement. Our challenge in Northwestern Europe is the low daytime temps during winter, rarely exceeding 12-15°C, and the damp conditions. The fact that the palm is in no growth state at these temps for months, and the continued wet growthpoint causes it to rot.

A warm up to 20C may lead to resident water to evaporate, and  a little growth avoids any wet points to stay & become weaker spots. For this reason, Brahea armata without any overhead protection is as good as dead even in a "mild" winter here, and Nannorhops in full ground is a rare sighting here, despite their respective listed hardiness numbers!

Roofing the palms is very effective though, whereas wrapping it up with poorly venting material is the worst you can do - the wind is our only respource to get rid of excess moisture at conditions with max 10°C & >90RH for 3-5 months straight.

I do not think that temperature plays a so significant role in the drying up od the wet meristem. I live in a counttry prone to very cold and desicating north eastern wind during winter and I can testify first hand how wet laundry dries out rapidly in shade and with only  say 5 C or lower during such cold blasts. I think as more decisive factor the relative humidity and the dew point of course combined with a cold weather.

[Axel Amsterdam]

On 29 februari 2016 11:54:56, jwitt said:

I think it not so much the wet soil per se as it the less warm up during the day in wetter climates. Filifera in the wild grow in wet soil(basically swamps). While the SW desert can get plenty cold, the days below freezing are virtually non existent in a zone 8 and above, not the case for a wetter zone 8.  On a side note, CIDP surivived -10f and lower in Alamogordo NM in 2/1011. 

I think the greater diurnal temp allows a  palm with mass to survive lower temps than one in the same zone of lesser diurnal temp. the greater diurnal temp also means less consectutive hours below freezing in cold events.

 

There are large filifer grown in a warm 6b(Corrales, NM), unprotected for over 20 years in a water table of less than 4'. I would call that wet!

I think this is spot on. I have protected trunks of palms, like phoenix and syagrus without covering the wet soil during freezing events and they kept on growing and survived. It's the warm up of the air and the trunk by a strong sun that makes the difference in cold sunny desert climates. The strong infrared spectrum warms up the trunk to well above airtemps. 

I have lost palms in the past which still had perfect healthy rootsystems in the ground. The real problem in winter wet climates is the lack of a daily warm up. Only winter wet climates with very modest frosts, an occasional 23f without dayfrost, can support CIDP' S, washingtonia's and brahea's longterm. This is the case with London and some parts of SE coastal UK.    

 

 

[Axel Amsterdam]

 

Jim, What is the reason CIDP's cant take the cold NM like filifera's can? They have a lot of mass too like filifera's.

Is it because they are slow to recover after defoliation? 

 

[Las Palmas Norte]

Perhaps another factor to consider is recovery rate. Once freeze damage occurs and emerging fronds begin to exhibit damage at the center core, the race is on. Will the damage continue downward into the core as a non-growing situation continues, or will the palm begin to push new growth and out pace the rot?

 

Cheers, Barrie.

[jwitt]

On 3/19/2016, 3:32:10, Axel Amsterdam said:

 

Jim, What is the reason CIDP's cant take the cold NM like filifera's can? They have a lot of mass too like filifera's.

Is it because they are slow to recover after defoliation? 

 

Alex- they are grown in our southern Z8 warmer areas. They can take the cold, but need a couple seasons to recover ii defoliated. They go into decline being defoliated yearly. They are becoming quite popularr in El Paso and most survived 2/2011 there(0f).  Las Cruces/Alamogordo have some CIDP in NM, any colder area here(Albuquerque) causes yearly defoliation..

[JT in Japan]

Lots of good conversation in this thread, but not enough pictures. Here's some shots of my washingtonias, which should be hardy, but took some terrible cold hit this winter, I think largely due to the amount of rain we had and the cold that crept into their roots. I'm hopeful that most of these will pull through (there's new growth and I've tugged on several, with no spear pulls yet, knock wood).

Note: these are in my Tokyo garden, which is several degrees cooler than the beach in Shimoda.

JT

[Las Palmas Norte]

Yes, palms (and plants in general) are more susceptible to damage in pots, since cold invades from below soil level as well.

Those are fast growers and should send a bunch of new fronds this growing season.

 

Cheers, Barrie. 

[SailorBold]

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2016‎ ‎7‎:‎13‎:‎51‎, JT in Japan said:

Lots of good conversation in this thread, but not enough pictures. Here's some shots of my washingtonias, which should be hardy, but took some terrible cold hit this winter, I think largely due to the amount of rain we had and the cold that crept into their roots. I'm hopeful that most of these will pull through (there's new growth and I've tugged on several, with no spear pulls yet, knock wood).

Note: these are in my Tokyo garden, which is several degrees cooler than the beach in Shimoda.

JT

What temp did those palms see?

[JT in Japan]

I can't be exact, by the absolute lowest was likely -3c. Had one snowfall as well, where they got buried for a few hours.

[Jimhardy]

A palm stressed and in drought mode has a higher carb to water ratio...

the higher concentration of sugars lowers the freezing point.

 

I have seen this in Bizmarckia at 23F on the porch

and bone dry,the spear froze but never really

pulled,it just dried out and snapped as it grew out

just no moisture for fungal growth....

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Wet soil in pots has an affect in freezing temperatures, but I haven't seen it with plants in the ground.  The killer here in our 8B is the frozen precipitation and flat out inches of ice that we get every few years.  I have shown pictures of washingtonia and other that went down to 17-18 degrees without frozen precip. and barely bronzed but at 22-23 degrees and ice they completely defoliated and some died.  West of El Paso to the coast may have similar temperatures but zone 8 in the gulf states are much, much more difficult to keep palms in the winter.