Interested in building a garden in Hawaii. Need recommendations

[OverGrown]

I'm interested in finding some vacation property in Hawaii where I can plant palms that will grow on its own (on natural rainfall) when I'm not there.  I'm looking for at least an acre+.  Any recommendation/input would be appreciated.   

[CLINODAVE]

Try Archontophoenix alexandrae.  

Sorry, couldn't resist.  Although they will indeed do quite well if you are in a wet area like east Hawaii.  If you are in such an area, Clinostigma samoense and Pigafetta filaris/elata will also do well on their own.  Clinos probably want some good weed control before you leave, though.  

Dunno about our native Pritchardias.  They seem to need more care than one would think.

[Josh-O]

are you moving from the frosty wonderland?

[OverGrown]

  On 1/26/2016 at 4:39 AM, Josh-O said:

are you moving from the frosty wonderland?

Expand  

In short, I would like to buy everything floribunda is selling, plant it, walk away for a couple years and come back to an awesome garden! lol

[knell]

if you need someone to camp out on your property and do general maintenance for those two years I wholeheartedly volunteer  

[Kevin S]

 I did just that a few years ago.  After I gathered all the information the most affordable area And Big lot sizes.  I chose Hawaiian Acres. Hawaiian Acres does not have mandatory road association fees but I still send them a check anyways. Some areas have a real bad roads where others the roads are pretty nice.I am on the same road in Hawaiian Acres as Jeff.  I was told by many people on the big island you want to be between 1000 feet and 800 feet is the sweet spot for growing palm trees.  At that altitude you get enough rain and stay warm enough where you could pretty much grow any palm that likes it wet and warm.  You also want to check maps for seasonal rivers and lava flow patterns  and then cross  your fingers hope you chose wisely.  I seen 3 acre parcel's as low as $15,000 but at that price you get a river that runs through it LOL. If you have a paved road then the price is going to get much higher.  I used satellite photos to pick out a parcel. I look for the area that had big trees in it in the hopes I would get more soil. As soon as I found one that I thought was acceptable I contacted a realtor in the area.  They went down there and took some photos of the front of the parcel and sent them to me.  And I told them to put in my offer.  I finally got to go see it in person a year later after I purchased it.  I think I am on a great street real nice neighbors.  Some areas the topsoil might only be an inch or so and in other areas It is A foot or more.  Every year when I visit I get to see how things have grown.  I can also see when I first arrived how everything want some fertilizer.  So matter what you would want to visit your palms every year to fertilize them and also get rid of any weeds trying to rob the nutrients from your palm tree.  Weeds grow faster then palm trees.  Some of the weedy trees can be up to 15 feet In a year from a seed.  Some plants I planted in the ground just disappear completely and some palms died  but the vast majority of the plants I planted lived Hopefully some of this information will be useful to you.  I will also post two pics of what can be accomplished in three years.

[Kevin S]

 And now here is a photo three years later.  As you can tell from the photo the palm trees take a while to get big from the size I got.  It is easier for me to plant smaller size palm trees then big ones and I feel also the plant should be better established if it starts young growing a root system on top of the lava.  I know a lot of the palms Jeff has he had someone come in and break a holes through the lava to plant them which is probably a lot better than what I do.  Someday I might do the same right now I'm just having fun.

[redbeard917]

Probably a dumb question... Is it too expensive to bring in topsoil for planting in places where the naturally existing soil is too thin? I wonder about this in south FL and the keys too, which are of course different because they are connected to the mainland. Here in north FL, many truckloads of red Georgia clay are brought in to level newly developed properties, but the dirt doesn't have to travel far.

[Darold Petty]

NO dumb questions, only lack of inquiry is dumb.

Yes, Hawaiians use purchased fill, and plain cinders also.  The cinders are screened for uniform size.

Don't forget, there is a very active Hawaiian Island Palm Society on Big Island, (including a few Palmtalkers).  Why not contact a local for the most accurate and specific advice ?    

[Josh-O]

  On 4/14/2016 at 1:31 AM, Darold Petty said:

NO dumb questions, only lack of inquiry is dumb.

Yes, Hawaiians use purchased fill, and plain cinders also.  The cinders are screened for uniform size.

Don't forget, there is a very active Hawaiian Island Palm Society on Big Island, (including a few Palmtalkers).  Why not contact a local for the most accurate and specific advice ?    

Expand  

that's some good advice Darold

[Kevin S]

 And your question yes you can go to one of the local Rock quarry and purchase cinder to build up soil or you could have it delivered.  I want to say the price was around $40 a ton for cinder you can choose either black sinder or red cinder. The red sinder was a little more expensive.  Or you can get cinder soil mix for a little more money. I made several trips last year to Puna rock.  I just rented a dump truck from a rental company. At that Hilo dump you can get free mulch.  The only mulch available to me last year was ground up pallets I believe but if I had a smaller truck I could've got just garden mulch.  I will include a photo of my mulch and cinder pile  I fill up 5 gallon pots and carry the soil to where I need it.  In some areas I'm able to drive the truck right up next to where I need the cinder and just shovel it out from there where needed. Much easier then using 5 gallon bucket.

[Alicehunter2000]

Is that a mini-home?

[Cindy Adair]

  On 1/25/2016 at 8:18 PM, OverGrown said:

I'm interested in finding some vacation property in Hawaii where I can plant palms that will grow on its own (on natural rainfall) when I'm not there.  I'm looking for at least an acre+.  Any recommendation/input would be appreciated.   

Expand  

Very interesting topic! As some of you know, I ended up in Puerto Rico at 900 ft. where palms grow so well with little attention. I am lucky to find great soil on most of my farm so I definitely planted rainforest plants of all kinds and left them to grow on their own. Land in rural PR is cheap too! However a long way from California!

I will be interested in your eventual choice and plantings!

[Dypsisdean]

You never mentioned if you have ever been to Hawaii, or what areas.

My suggestion would be to do all your homework online. Starting here is a great idea. Contact people willing to talk. And there are many great resources for real estate on the web.

IMO - after you have done all that, and have some concept of the options and "lay of the land," then jump on a plane and take 5 days actually experiencing the places you think you might be interested in. There are things that you cannot learn or understand without first hand knowledge. Flights are reasonable now, and the money and time you spend will save you the same money, time, and possible grief in the end.

It is hard to realize how different things can be here. A ten minute drive can take you from a location you would really enjoy, to one you would not. Rain, wind, and temperature vary greatly within short distances, and so do "neighborhoods."

With the things you will learn, once you get home,  shopping for what you really like and recognizing a good deal will be much much easier.

[Kim]

  On 1/25/2016 at 8:18 PM, OverGrown said:

I'm interested in finding some vacation property in Hawaii where I can plant palms that will grow on its own (on natural rainfall) when I'm not there.  I'm looking for at least an acre+.  Any recommendation/input would be appreciated.   

Expand  

Do you want a vacation house with that?  Or a vacant acre?

 

  On 1/26/2016 at 5:13 AM, OverGrown said:

In short, I would like to buy everything floribunda is selling, plant it, walk away for a couple years and come back to an awesome garden! lol

Expand  

You would come back to an awesome tangle of trash trees and vines overwhelming the palms -- but the palms might survive.  "lol" means you are joking, I hope.

[mike in kurtistown]

When I came out to the eastern part of the Big Island in 2005 to look for property, I got into contact with a good real estate agent who helped me a lot. Most agents want to help, because that's how they make their living, but I think I was lucky in getting a really competent one. I let it be known that I wanted a soils property, not a rocky surface awaiting expensive tons of soil/cinder mix. Luckily, I got a property with very rocky soil (good drainage) in what was once a sugar-cane growing area. I have heard that people with deep, rockless soils farther up the road from here have problems with the heavy wet volcanic loam suffocating the roots of some kinds of palms (and a real problem with cycads). And mark Kim's comment about trash trees, etc. I cleared one area of my property, didn't do anything for two or three years, and then found a jungle of 30-40 ft trash trees that was worse than what I had originally.

 

[Kevin S]

  On 4/14/2016 at 6:03 PM, Alicehunter2000 said:

Is that a mini-home?

Expand  

 No that is just a 8 by 12 foot shed but when I first build it the person doing the dozer work for the road sad that's better than where he lives and wonders why I just don't live in it.    I could camp out in it if I wanted to.

 I am posting another photo in it you can see a bunch of garbage trees and etc.  grown from seed in just one years time.  My neighbor next to me bulldozed his whole 3 acre lot The whole thing is filling up with garbage trees.  And blowing seeds into my property. So without maintenance probably have the better luck just plugging palm trees in the native forest  and cross your fingers.

[Alicehunter2000]

Nice door for a shed....that program on HGTV about little mini homes came to mind.

How often are you going to be there....would be cool to have a little house there so you could actually stay on site. Will they let you cut and burn trash trees or do you have to dispose of them by composting. Not sure letting them grow rampant is the best thing. Maybe scale down your main palmy area to about a 1/4 to a 1/2 acre which would be more manageable.

[akamu]

 Keep us posted on your decision thanks

[bgl]

Already lots of good advice here, but I'll add a few comments as well. I have been here for more than 20 years now (move from San Diego in 1995), and over the years I have purchased a total of 13 acres of vacant land. Some of those acres (here in Leilani Estates) were used to build a residence on (two separate properties), some acres were added to an existing garden, and some were elsewhere and simply for investment purposes. In all cases the land was vacant. I.e. no existing structure when the property was acquired. Flying over to the Big Island and checking out some of the areas you're considering is the very best investment in time and money you can possibly make. I would never advise anyone to purchase property here unseen. You want to SEE IT and even more importantly WALK IT, to make sure there are no hidden surprises. There are significant differences between the various subdivisions in Puna, if that's where you are looking. Hawaiian Paradise Park, Hawaiian Acres, Orchidland and Leilani Estates would probably be the most likely target areas. As already has been pointed out, an elevation of around 800 ft or so is pretty ideal on the Hilo side of the island. I'm at 800 ft here in Leilani Estates with an average annual rainfall of about 140 inches and ideal conditions for all the tropical rainforest palms. In other words, no need for artificial irrigation. Close to the ocean it's going to be a bit more windy, sunnier and hotter and less ideal for rainforest palms. Also less rainfall in some of those areas making irrigation necessary.

About clearing the property and weeds: there's really no right way or wrong way even though it's certainly easy to make mistakes. One mistake would be to completely clear an acre, and start from scratch. That may seem tempting if that acre is full of weed trees but completely clearing also means that you're sending out an open invitation to even more aggressive weed trees. I'm talking stuff that will go from seedling size to 30 ft tall in 12 months time. And that's not even the worst kind of weeds if you're going to plant palms that will have to fend for themselves. The worst kind are various vines that will cover any small palm, climb up the new unopened spike and completely strangle it. This happens quickly. You can plant stuff and go back to the mainland and be away for 3-4 months or so and the palms should be OK, assuming you're planting 5G size and up. Being gone for more than 4-5 months or so, and you will have to expect that a certain percentage of your palms WILL have succumbed to the weeds. If you can even FIND the palms among the weeds. Seriously. And by the way, selective clearing is almost always the best approach, especially if you're going to be away a good chunk of the time.

Finally soil - Puna has very little topsoil, so it's almost always a necessity to buy soil. Either black or red cinder, which by itself should never be used for planting purposes since it has no organic material, OR a cinder-soil mix, which generally is good for planting purposes. What you pay for, assuming you decide to have it delivered (20 or 26 cubic yard trucks) is not so much the cinder or cinder-soil itself, but the delivery. The further away from the cinder pit and the more you will have to pay.

That's pretty much what I can think of right now.
Bo-Göran

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

If you cut down the weedy trees and chip them, doesn't that build soil eventually?

[bgl]

  On 4/16/2016 at 12:53 AM, Jerry@TreeZoo said:

If you cut down the weedy trees and chip them, doesn't that build soil eventually?

Expand  

 

Oh, definitely! All you have to do is wait about eight years or so! Could be a bit less, could be a bit more, all depending on what kind of weed trees and how quickly they decompose and also how much rain in your area.

[Kevin S]

 I put a nice layer of mulch in the garden and in one years time it was all gone.  Like it was never there.  I could not even find a trace of it.  But I did take photos of it before it disappeared so I know it wasn't a dream LOL.  So I don't think chipper shredder would do much with the weed trees adding soil you should just avoid giving them a chance to get established and reseed and invade more areas.  If you wait three years you're probably going to have to hire a professional to remove some very tall weed trees.  Maybe even have to bring in a bulldozer.  I seen some YouTube videos of them removing weed trees in Hawaii. 

[rick]

Really interesting discussion so far. Out of curiosity, what species are some of these "weed trees"?

[bgl]

  On 4/16/2016 at 4:29 AM, rick said:

Really interesting discussion so far. Out of curiosity, what species are some of these "weed trees"?

Expand  

 

Albizia and Cecropia would be the worst offenders, hands down. Very fast growing and also a major hazard during a storm or hurricane when they have an unfortunate tendency to fall down, potentially causing significant damage to houses or power lines.

EDIT - below is an Albizia tree that fell down during Hurricane Iselle in August 2014.

[Kevin S]

  On 4/16/2016 at 4:58 AM, bgl said:

Albizia

Expand  

 Is one of the fastest-growing ones I think but not the biggest width wise spread as a seedling but at least they're seedlings are ez to pullout.  In the photo behind the travelers palm is a very fast growing weed tree that is hard to pull out of the ground strong roots.  After the hurricane from the air you could see Albizia trees toppled over in huge areas.  I lucked out the only thing that toppled over was strawberry guava that I left to shade some baby palm trees.

[mike in kurtistown]

To the list of weed trees I would add Trema orientalis, the gunpowder tree. It grows as fast as the albizia. Also Melochia. Both come up by the thousands from seeds from one's neighbors undeveloped lots. There is a monster vine that Bo referred to called maile pilau. I beleive that "pilau" is the Hawaiian word for "stinking". And there is a small shrub related to Miconia called clidemia, which comes up everywhere. Miconia is around but doesn't seem to be a problem in terms of invasiveness. And there is a monster grass called "California grass". Albizia and gunpowder seedlings and small trees are very susceptible to roundup, as are the grasses. Roundup wfill also kill Melochia and the maile vine, but it takes some time. The only chemical that I have used that will kill clidemia and cecropia is Remedy (Garlon), and I haven't found anything yet that will kill strawberry guava, the "waiawea".

 

[Dypsisdean]

  On 4/16/2016 at 5:36 PM, mike in kurtistown said:

 I haven't found anything yet that will kill strawberry guava, the "waiawea".

 

Expand  

 

Mike - for Guava I use 1/2 Crossbow and 1/2 diesel mixed - and paint it liberally on the freshly cut stumps/stems after cutting close to the ground. It usually kills about 80%+ first time, and after a second time it seems to always do the trick.

[Patrick]

I think the selective clearing works well, but be warned that those weed tree seedlings are persistent after you kill the parent trees. I am learning that if you have a "trashy" yard you will be fighting more weed trees as years go on.

We had problems starting out in our lot in Leilani with large weed trees in the neighbors lot and a couple trees in ours. The easiest thing to do is to ring the trees and let them break down on their own if you have the time. But be prepared to deal with seedlings for many years. I think 2 years ago I must have pulled up, by hand, several thousand seedlings and saplings after the big trees had died. The good news is that up to 8' Albizias are very easy to pull by hand. Even taller, sometimes...

Dean, I just got back from a week of work on our lot in Leilani, but I only cut large notches in our Strawberry guava and used 100% crossbow. I guess the diesel adds a certain "magic" to the toxic soup? And I suppose this also means I didn't quite kill my SG this time?

[Dypsisdean]

  On 5/9/2016 at 1:52 PM, Patrick said:

Dean, I just got back from a week of work on our lot in Leilani, but I only cut large notches in our Strawberry guava and used 100% crossbow. I guess the diesel adds a certain "magic" to the toxic soup? And I suppose this also means I didn't quite kill my SG this time?

Expand  

Patrick,

The directions state - "Conventional Basal Bark and Stump Applications: For control of susceptible woody plants and to prevent or control regrowth from cut stumps, mix 1 to 4 gallons of this product in diesel oil, No. 1 or No. 2 fuel oil or kerosene to make 100 gallons of spray and apply to thoroughly wet upper and lower stems including the root collar and any ground sprouts."

An old timer advised me that he made it stronger and painted a half and half mixture on freshly cut stumps and stems. The advantage is that the Crossbow goes a lot farther (it's not cheap), you don't have a nasty spray drifting around everywhere (but wear gloves), and you can really get a lot of the liquid to soak into the stump/cuts by painting it on. It soaks in readily, so after less than a minute, you can apply a second dose.

I'm not sure if the diesel is "magic." But since they mention it it the directions, it would appear as if it might enhance, or at least extend the effectiveness. You could probably even make it not so strong - since 4 to 100 was the recommended ratio.

 

[Justin]

Couple more things to add, from my experience.  I would definitely recommend a couple of things:

• Try to find lots as full of Ohia trees as possible, and in an area where the surrounding lots are Ohia trees.  The reason being, lots full of native plants (and particularly Ohia) tend to have less weed trees, vines, etc.  I was lucky enough to purchase a lot that had nothing but Ohia and Uluhe ferns, and there were almost no weeds.  Now, once you clear areas, weeds will come in, but at least they'll be close to the paths you've created.
• Put flags next to whatever you plant.  These really come in handy for finding small plants, alerting anyone who is spraying/cutting to stay away, and so on.
• I would hire someone to come out every month or two to clean the lot, if nothing else, to clean a radius around the stuff you've planted.  You could probably find people to do that relatively inexpensively if you limit it to just keeping the radius around your plantings free of vines.  The vines are the worst. 
• Have the person who tends the yard send photos every now and then so you have an idea of how things are progressing.
• Fertilizer will help a lot, but it will also help the weeds and vines as well.

I have someone come by my property twice a month, and I show up every 2-4 months, and sometimes everything looks great, sometimes it's rained so much that spraying doesn't work and the weeds have gone insane.

Hopefully this helps.

[Patrick]

Thanks Dean it is expensive. I just went to town with it like a bull in a china shop full strength brushing it on- it does soak in quickly!

A couple more things I can add that Justin reminded me of: If you think it's worth your time you can put cardboard around the base of whatever you plant, especially when things are small. The thought is that if sunlight doesn't hit the ground around the root mass then it will keep weeds at bay. It works for 6-8 months and then the weeds overgrow it as the cardboard breaks down. I do this every time I visit and maintain our yard ,though I only have a dozen or so things planted. The big box hardware store sells moving boxes, but you could probably get a bunch of cardboard from Costco or others if they're willing to give it to you.

The other thing I did that has been very helpful was to stake the perimeter. We had a guy find our pins and he had to cut a path around the entire lot. I figured why waste the investment so I bought a post driver, a bunch of 1/2" rebar and a bunch of 1/2" electrical PVC pipe (oh, sorry, it's CONDUIT. If you call it pipe then the pipefitters will try to steal your work, but that's another story ;)). I drove the rebar into the lava about every 50' where I could find cracks and then put a 5' length of the PVC pipe over the rebar and tied some fluorescent streamers to the pvc. That has all lasted about 4 years now and it has been very helpful in keeping my bearings when I am "foraging" around the lot. It is easy to get disoriented!

[Kim]

Thanks for the reminder about the cardboard idea, have used it in California, but didn't think it would work in Hawaii.  About 1/4 acre of cardboard would be perfect.   The weed tree discussion is really hitting home right now, as I spent yesterday cutting down 1-year old cecropia and gunpowder trees growing out of Ohi'a logs that fell in Hurricane Iselle, and dragging the bodies off into the forest.  Crossbow is my weapon of choice on the cut stumps; expensive, but a container goes a long way. Diesel mixed in just seems too overpowering. But I may never get rid of the strawberry guava any other way, that stuff is so hard and tenacious.

Patrick, I know what you mean about getting lost in the bush, especially on overcast days.  It's a shock to suddenly come upon the back of a neighbor's house when I thought I was headed toward the other side of the lot!  Vegetation is so thick on my 2nd acre, even with 5 ft. stakes along the perimeter with fluorescent streamers, I wouldn't be able to see them. The fluorescent tape is handy on new plantings so they don't get whacked later. 

Gardening here is challenging, but it's part of the fun and gives a sense of accomplishment.  Good exercise, too.

[DoomsDave]

Peter, if I had the money, I'd think of buying on the Windward side of Oahu. Big city, population pressure, maybe good investment. A lot more per acre than Big Island. But Big City, small island. Plenty of rain . . .

Maybe Punahu, for your kids?

Thought!

Oahu-gesundheit is expensive. But . . .

[palmfriend]

Very interesting thread - priceless pieces of information!

(No plans in the near future, but gathering that kind of knowledge is very interesting and might be of

use one day...)

Thanks for sharing!

best regards