Sylvester Date Palm Tips

[nitsua0895]

I have some very small Sylvester Dates that I got bare root a few months ago. I've been watering them every few days and I put a few teaspoons of granular fertilizer around them in November to make sure they had all the micronutrients they need. 

Some are completely green and some are turning grey on the ends. However I'm not really noticing any new growth. Are they just really slow growers or do they usually stop growing during the winter months? I heard that it could also be due to the soil not having the correct ph level. What's a good way to test ph? 

[Palmaceae]

Actually it looks dry, maybe the soil is drying out too quickly?

[nitsua0895]

That's possible, I used Earthgro potting soil but it wasn't very expensive so the quality probably isn't very good.

I'm going to buy separate bags of sand, perlite, and topsoil and try to find a good mixture that drains well but not too fast. 

[redbeard917]

They probably won't grow for a recovery period after being bare-rooted, and growth will obviously be slower with cooler temps, too.

[Cedric]

Bit of a bump but I thought I should mention these are the fastest growing Phoenix for me besides reclinata.

I love em especially the blue, silver, completely plumose forms. When you tire of the relentless fecund tropical look they're so evocative of the calm dry dessert landscapes with the spiky silver blue leaflets. In fact perhapse surprisingly to some they actually prefer seasonally steamy wet parts of the world. The seedlings I have, selected from the forms I liked in India have now twelve leaves and quite a few spikes after just under two years growing in 50-70% shade. 

Heat and humidity and lots of water and fert does wonders in the growing season to speed these up, they don't rot or get fungus and thrive in these conditions. They do slow down in the dry cool season but not completely. Mine carry on opening up spikes as low as 16%C. Your seedlings I bet though could happily sit in the one leaf stage until things warm up as long as its not too dry. They're extremely tough.

In the wild and semi wild I've seen these completely flooded, trunks coming up out of deep water, low islands, vegetable/rice paddy banks, monsoonal climate, large seasonal wetlands full of thousands of nesting birds. This dries up completely in the cooler dry season to rock hard pans. I guess though there is plenty of water down under that as the water table should be quite high most years.

Treat like a tropical in summer, drier in your cooler season. I would give them a heavier soil definitely, crumbled clay in the mix. Tough as boots shouldn't blink when transplanted as long as it's not too icy when you do it. You can also just dissolve a little clay in water meantime and water in with that. This slurry sinks down through the porous soil to improve it's water holding capacity. I do that a lot with palms grown in light exhausted peaty soil in pots that dry up too quickly. Clay is extremely fertile generally so also helps with the feeding and trace elements thing.

They're fast and rewarding to grow from seed, pretty in pots when young too! Enjoy. When you're growing palms from seed your're definately bitten by the palm bug, who knows maybe you will even become a member of the American oops International Palm Society 

[Phoenikakias]

Occasionally I come across some dactylifera specimens, which have so sylvestris-alike look, thay I wonder whether mother seeds were a result of cross-pollination. Also the cretan date palm has a very close look, which is more amazing if one considers that between the habitat of sylvestris and the one of the cretan Phoenix lies almost half of the asian continent with the vast stands of dactylifera.

[nitsua0895]

13 hours ago, Cedric said:

Bit of a bump but I thought I should mention these are the fastest growing Phoenix for me besides reclinata.

I love em especially the blue, silver, completely plumose forms. When you tire of the relentless fecund tropical look they're so evocative of the calm dry dessert landscapes with the spiky silver blue leaflets. In fact perhapse surprisingly to some they actually prefer seasonally steamy wet parts of the world. The seedlings I have, selected from the forms I liked in India have now twelve leaves and quite a few spikes after just under two years growing in 50-70% shade. 

Heat and humidity and lots of water and fert does wonders in the growing season to speed these up, they don't rot or get fungus and thrive in these conditions. They do slow down in the dry cool season but not completely. Mine carry on opening up spikes as low as 16%C. Your seedlings I bet though could happily sit in the one leaf stage until things warm up as long as its not too dry. They're extremely tough.

In the wild and semi wild I've seen these completely flooded, trunks coming up out of deep water, low islands, vegetable/rice paddy banks, monsoonal climate, large seasonal wetlands full of thousands of nesting birds. This dries up completely in the cooler dry season to rock hard pans. I guess though there is plenty of water down under that as the water table should be quite high most years.

Treat like a tropical in summer, drier in your cooler season. I would give them a heavier soil definitely, crumbled clay in the mix. Tough as boots shouldn't blink when transplanted as long as it's not too icy when you do it. You can also just dissolve a little clay in water meantime and water in with that. This slurry sinks down through the porous soil to improve it's water holding capacity. I do that a lot with palms grown in light exhausted peaty soil in pots that dry up too quickly. Clay is extremely fertile generally so also helps with the feeding and trace elements thing.

They're fast and rewarding to grow from seed, pretty in pots when young too! Enjoy. When you're growing palms from seed your're definately bitten by the palm bug, who knows maybe you will even become a member of the American oops International Palm Society 

Here we get very hot and humid summers with drier autumns and then wet winters and springs so hopefully they'll grow well here. During the day we've had temperatures between 12-16C and lots of sun but at night we've had a few nights of freezing in a row. And when it's below freezing I bring all of my small palm trees inside. Will the dryness of the heated house cause problems? 

Do you ever fertilize during the cool season? 

Thanks for the tip about the clay, I'm going to give it a try because the soil I'm using dries up way too quickly. I imagine it would be even worse during the summer.

I'm planning to join the IPS soon, growing palm trees has become addicting haha. 

 

[Cedric]

On January 14, 2016 4:09:14 PM, Phoenikakias said:

Occasionally I come across some dactylifera specimens, which have so sylvestris-alike look, thay I wonder whether mother seeds were a result of cross-pollination. Also the cretan date palm has a very close look, which is more amazing if one considers that between the habitat of sylvestris and the one of the cretan Phoenix lies almost half of the asian continent with the vast stands of dactylifera.

Yes absolutely. When you stand in a plantation of P sylvestris grown for the horticultural trade you can see how much variation exists, this part of the world maybe easier to select for least hybridised than perhapse America. I suspect there is a fair ammout of variation in sylvestris anyway even without the influence of dactylifera. In tropical sub tropical Asia at least, canariensis probably doesn't come into it much but others most definately in domestication at least. I selected some larger ones for my garden and had a time of it matching them up.

P theophrasti to my mind also looks very much like the more unadulterated sylvestris, it's a very nice palm. Then you also get a very nice very silver, pink silver almost red silverdactylifera which was widely planted in what turned out to be a massive fraudulent date growing scheme in Thailand, but generaly these are green rather than silver or blue.

The most noticable variation in sylvestris for me anyway is the leaflet arrangment, shape and colour, ranging from long and thin, spikey broad, sickle shaped - broad -  thin , open v shape, closed v, various degrees of being plumous (plumousity?) or not at all, silver to blue to bright sea green......

If you look on the net there does seem to have been a fair ammount of study, DNA tests on sylvestris and theophrasti to test their relationship to dactylifera, in the case of theophrasti it appears to be a completely seperate species, for sylvestris it seemed more complicated least I couldn't make head nor tail of it, think hybridisation compicated the results somewhat but ultimately also a completely seperate species.

[Cedric]

On January 15, 2016 4:43:36 AM, nitsua0895 said:

Here we get very hot and humid summers with drier autumns and then wet winters and springs so hopefully they'll grow well here. During the day we've had temperatures between 12-16C and lots of sun but at night we've had a few nights of freezing in a row. And when it's below freezing I bring all of my small palm trees inside. Will the dryness of the heated house cause problems? 

Do you ever fertilize during the cool season? 

Thanks for the tip about the clay, I'm going to give it a try because the soil I'm using dries up way too quickly. I imagine it would be even worse during the summer.

I'm planning to join the IPS soon, growing palm trees has become addicting haha. 

 

No, I don't fertilise during the cool season. I did with the Roystonia oleracea seedlings month before the dry season, high potassium end. We've had an incredibly mild cool season so far and with lots of rain (most ever recorded etc for a January). I wanted to have no active growing spikes in case they got damaged. Tried to time it to get the spikes sleeping deep inside but this flopped as they promptly threw up three spikes one after the other, these grow like weeds and so far not the slightest bit worried about our cold, not even a hint of yellow on the dark shiny green leaflets...... sorry got a bit side tracked there.

Yes freezing nights should be avoided, there is a risk they could die, but being on the dry side would've help protect them absolutely. 12- 16C is nothing to worry about with these. I doubt the dry air and house temps will adversely affect sylvestris, they should happily grow on a window ledge in the winter sun, but then they mustn't be kept dry in that case, humidity helps at least with insect pests like spider mite getting a hold.

Its a very tough palm generally but I don't have experience of frost, icy 'wet' cold type winter weather, they wouldn't grow in Northern Europe for example, Im sure of that.  Not sure how well they grow in places like Greece, at the colder winter wet end for example or America in the same.  I think they grow as far North as Jacksonville Florida at least, I seem to remember seeing them there but these could've been planted as mature specimens as it was some kind of corporate resort happening. California they could in parts???.... Phoenikakias would know more about Greece...on the other hand I know when established they can take a  a fair bit of drought conditions in winter.

[Ben in Norcal]

28 minutes ago, Cedric said:

No, I don't fertilise during the cool season. I did with the Roystonia oleracea seedlings month before the dry season, high potassium end. We've had an incredibly mild cool season so far and with lots of rain (most ever recorded etc for a January). I wanted to have no active growing spikes in case they got damaged. Tried to time it to get the spikes sleeping deep inside but this flopped as they promptly threw up three spikes one after the other, these grow like weeds and so far not the slightest bit worried about our cold, not even a hint of yellow on the dark shiny green leaflets...... sorry got a bit side tracked there.

Yes freezing nights should be avoided, there is a risk they could die, but being on the dry side would've help protect them absolutely. 12- 16C is nothing to worry about with these. I doubt the dry air and house temps will adversely affect sylvestris, they should happily grow on a window ledge in the winter sun, but then they mustn't be kept dry in that case, humidity helps at least with insect pests like spider mite getting a hold.

Its a very tough palm generally but I don't have experience of frost, icy 'wet' cold type winter weather, they wouldn't grow in Northern Europe for example, Im sure of that.  Not sure how well they grow in places like Greece, at the colder winter wet end for example or America in the same.  I think they grow as far North as Jacksonville Florida at least, I seem to remember seeing them there but these could've been planted as mature specimens as it was some kind of corporate resort happening. California they could in parts???.... Phoenikakias would know more about Greece...on the other hand I know when established they can take a  a fair bit of drought conditions in winter.

P. sylvestris are bullet proof throughout most of coastal California...I should think they have a shot even up into coastal Oregon?

I'm surprised to hear they wouldn't grow in Northern Europe when CIDP do...are P. sylvestris that much less hardy?  I don't think they ever get tested here so not sure myself.

[Cedric]

18 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

P. sylvestris are bullet proof throughout most of coastal California...I should think they have a shot even up into coastal Oregon?

I'm surprised to hear they wouldn't grow in Northern Europe when CIDP do...are P. sylvestris that much less hardy?  I don't think they ever get tested here so not sure myself.

Yes I imagine coastal California would be OK. Yes palms are tested a lot in Northern Europe, never seen sylvestris on any nursery lists specialising in hardy palms, they are constantly trying to push the envelope. I doubt it's even a hopeful. I know CIDP doesn't grow in Northern Europe either even though it can take full on frosts if protected through the baby stages of life in dryer winters. Its the relentless cold wet freezing temps and lack of light that get them more than (to a certain degree) the cold itself. Im sure they could survive the odd very light snow even if dry and sunny most of the other time, but a full on Northern winter no way! Just maybe in Britain but then Kew would definitely have a few which they dont far as i know. Some get them through a few years as pot plants wrapped up in bubble wrap and straw, even heating cables etc but they usually die. I was once convinced I had seen one happily growing in a suburb of Amsterdam many years ago where I lived and worked, growing out the basement of a building. I've never seen it since and no one there can ever recollect having ever seen it.....phantom palm. I think it may have been growing as an "orangerie" tub plant that grew too big and whose head was put out the basement window amogst shrubbery where it eventually died? 

[Phoenikakias]

4 hours ago, Cedric said:

No, I don't fertilise during the cool season. I did with the Roystonia oleracea seedlings month before the dry season, high potassium end. We've had an incredibly mild cool season so far and with lots of rain (most ever recorded etc for a January). I wanted to have no active growing spikes in case they got damaged. Tried to time it to get the spikes sleeping deep inside but this flopped as they promptly threw up three spikes one after the other, these grow like weeds and so far not the slightest bit worried about our cold, not even a hint of yellow on the dark shiny green leaflets...... sorry got a bit side tracked there.

Yes freezing nights should be avoided, there is a risk they could die, but being on the dry side would've help protect them absolutely. 12- 16C is nothing to worry about with these. I doubt the dry air and house temps will adversely affect sylvestris, they should happily grow on a window ledge in the winter sun, but then they mustn't be kept dry in that case, humidity helps at least with insect pests like spider mite getting a hold.

Its a very tough palm generally but I don't have experience of frost, icy 'wet' cold type winter weather, they wouldn't grow in Northern Europe for example, Im sure of that.  Not sure how well they grow in places like Greece, at the colder winter wet end for example or America in the same.  I think they grow as far North as Jacksonville Florida at least, I seem to remember seeing them there but these could've been planted as mature specimens as it was some kind of corporate resort happening. California they could in parts???.... Phoenikakias would know more about Greece...on the other hand I know when established they can take a  a fair bit of drought conditions in winter.

With every possible reservation regarding the purity of seeds (because I am unaware of their origin) here is my own limited experience with this plant.I bought about 10 purported sylvestris seeds years ago in a west european country. They all germinated and all subsequently died but one. What was seeming most impresive to my eyes was that those seeds produced a very long sinker, much longer than seeds of CIDP and dactylifera. BTW the only rescued seedling was the one on which the sinker accidentally broke to half during transplanting process! (funny, isn't it?). Only this last fall I tried again to grow a sylvestris from seed (bought from rps), and the so far single produced seedling gives also the impression of a very long sinker, because eophyll popped up right on the edge of the pot (20 cm deep), while its seed had been sown in the middle . (really wonder myself many times if the cause for this is a sp.feature, or hybrid vigor or tetraploid genes) Now back to the older seed batch; this single rescued seedling, grew from then on without any protection in a pot outdoors in my garden in Greece up to a stage of juvenile specimen with divided fronds. Then I donated it to the athenian royal garden and lost traces of it (I strongly suspect nevertheless an ill fate). Admittedly this only one juvenile plant had never the chance to experience in my garden the exceptional hard freeze of 2004 and the subsequent next hard freeze in 2008, but judging from the performance of other phoenix specimens in my garden, I plausibly suppose that it would have survived with minor to moderate damage if it were ground planted, because because also my juvenile loureiroi, rupicola and reclinata plants survived (without spear pull), while they perished roebeleni and zeylanica.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Phoenikakias

[Ben in Norcal]

9 hours ago, Cedric said:

Yes I imagine coastal California would be OK. Yes palms are tested a lot in Northern Europe, never seen sylvestris on any nursery lists specialising in hardy palms, they are constantly trying to push the envelope. I doubt it's even a hopeful. I know CIDP doesn't grow in Northern Europe either even though it can take full on frosts if protected through the baby stages of life in dryer winters. Its the relentless cold wet freezing temps and lack of light that get them more than (to a certain degree) the cold itself. Im sure they could survive the odd very light snow even if dry and sunny most of the other time, but a full on Northern winter no way! Just maybe in Britain but then Kew would definitely have a few which they dont far as i know. Some get them through a few years as pot plants wrapped up in bubble wrap and straw, even heating cables etc but they usually die. I was once convinced I had seen one happily growing in a suburb of Amsterdam many years ago where I lived and worked, growing out the basement of a building. I've never seen it since and no one there can ever recollect having ever seen it.....phantom palm. I think it may have been growing as an "orangerie" tub plant that grew too big and whose head was put out the basement window amogst shrubbery where it eventually died? 

I've seen quite a few large CIDP in the UK, here on PT.  Some in London, some elsewhere.  That's why it surprises me to hear sylvestris can't grow there...has anyone tried, I wonder, given the success with CIDP?

[Phoenikakias]

On 14/1/2016, 7:44:40, Cedric said:

Bit of a bump but I thought I should mention these are the fastest growing Phoenix for me besides reclinata.

I love em especially the blue, silver, completely plumose forms. When you tire of the relentless fecund tropical look they're so evocative of the calm dry dessert landscapes with the spiky silver blue leaflets. In fact perhapse surprisingly to some they actually prefer seasonally steamy wet parts of the world. The seedlings I have, selected from the forms I liked in India have now twelve leaves and quite a few spikes after just under two years growing in 50-70% shade. 

Heat and humidity and lots of water and fert does wonders in the growing season to speed these up, they don't rot or get fungus and thrive in these conditions. They do slow down in the dry cool season but not completely. Mine carry on opening up spikes as low as 16%C. Your seedlings I bet though could happily sit in the one leaf stage until things warm up as long as its not too dry. They're extremely tough.

In the wild and semi wild I've seen these completely flooded, trunks coming up out of deep water, low islands, vegetable/rice paddy banks, monsoonal climate, large seasonal wetlands full of thousands of nesting birds. This dries up completely in the cooler dry season to rock hard pans. I guess though there is plenty of water down under that as the water table should be quite high most years.

Treat like a tropical in summer, drier in your cooler season. I would give them a heavier soil definitely, crumbled clay in the mix. Tough as boots shouldn't blink when transplanted as long as it's not too icy when you do it. You can also just dissolve a little clay in water meantime and water in with that. This slurry sinks down through the porous soil to improve it's water holding capacity. I do that a lot with palms grown in light exhausted peaty soil in pots that dry up too quickly. Clay is extremely fertile generally so also helps with the feeding and trace elements thing.

They're fast and rewarding to grow from seed, pretty in pots when young too! Enjoy. When you're growing palms from seed your're definately bitten by the palm bug, who knows maybe you will even become a member of the American oops International Palm Society 

Taking part in the discussion forum of the EPS (European Palm Society) I' ve learned that several palm spp supposedly very hardy to cold are very slow to grow if at all in  many north european countries because of the lack of the the necessary warmth during the summer months. Maybe sylvestris, unlike CIDP, belongs to this group. One grower in Northern Ireland reported once a very poor performance of  sylvestris in his garden.

[palmfriend]

I am not an expert in this matter but I thought I might add what I have experienced so far:

I bought a few seeds online, three have germinated, I put one of the seedlings in the ground quite early (that one

with the rocks around), the second one a week ago and the third one is still potted as a kind of backup.

They are obviously pretty tough and fast growing, the first I planted out took already three typhoons without damage -

but I am sure it will be different when they have grown up - the second one pushed a lot of roots through the pot`s holes,

that`s why I planted it out, too - and the third one is, as mentioned, still potted.

I am usually using a so called "seed starting soil" for all my seedlings and it does pretty well so far. It is a bit rocky as well

and I think that provides a good draining condition while still keeping the soil moist. (I didn`t fertilize it at all because I have read

somewhere that the seeds usually provide all the necessary nutrition for the first couple months.)

To keep it short: Palmaceae has already mentioned the matter with the soil and I just wanted to back it up with my own experiences.

I will attach photos of my three "babies" - they are all almost one year old.

best regards

 

[Cedric]

12 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

I've seen quite a few large CIDP in the UK, here on PT.  Some in London, some elsewhere.  That's why it surprises me to hear sylvestris can't grow there...has anyone tried, I wonder, given the success with CIDP?

Ha any that tried have now not got one. There was one in the middle of London but it was in a huge tub and is hauled there every Spring, a lot of people who saw it thought it was growing. There was another smaller one also buried in a tube near the West End. They do this quite lot there, set up tropical scheme plantings using plants they over winter under glass, like Ensete ventricosum, cannas and disposable bedding stuff. Its just too cold with limited sunlight hours in summer for adequate growth to sustain the plants through winter unaided.

What always caught my eye when I lived in London were the Trachys near Marylebone, it's quite a thing to see such tall row of healthy palms in London, I assume they are still there.

Sylvestris idealy likes warmth, humidity and light, and a dryish sunny winter, honestly think it's a non starter, not even marginal. Coastal areas with a maritime climate compensates somewhat if the sunlight and warmth  is good through summer so even there a relatively wet winter woud be OK.  In the UK its not terribly warm and daylight is in very short supply through summer and winter. Some parts of the UK like Cornwal a CIDP might just last a few years if planted as a trunking specimen or in an extremely good micro climate.....Northern Europe absolutely not unless encased in a green house. 

[Ben in Norcal]

9 minutes ago, Cedric said:

Ha any that tried have now not got one. There was one in the middle of London but it was in a huge tub and is hauled there every Spring, a lot of people who saw it thought it was growing. There was another smaller one also buried in a tube near the West End. They do this quite lot there, set up tropical scheme plantings using plants they over winter under glass, like Ensete ventricosum, cannas and disposable bedding stuff. Its just too cold with limited sunlight hours in summer for adequate growth to sustain the plants through winter unaided.

What always caught my eye when I lived in London were the Trachys near Marylebone, it's quite a thing to see such tall row of healthy palms in London, I assume they are still there.

Sylvestris idealy likes warmth, humidity and light, and a dryish sunny winter, honestly think it's a non starter, not even marginal. Coastal areas with a maritime climate compensates somewhat if the sunlight and warmth  is good through summer so even there a relatively wet winter woud be OK.  In the UK its not terribly warm and daylight is in very short supply through summer and winter. Some parts of the UK like Cornwal a CIDP might just last a few years if planted as a trunking specimen or in an extremely good micro climate.....Northern Europe absolutely not unless encased in a green house. 

Huh.  I've seen posts of CIDP even north of London, I had thought, and in personal gardens.  They definitely weren't in tubs, and looked more than 10 years old.  Anyway, I am glad I don't have to fuss with such antics here.  Not for Phoenix, anyway. 

[Palmy Portlander]

Elsewhere in Palm Talk and on YouTube you can read about a CIPD being grown in Alesund Norway, 62 degrees north. zone 9a.  The brave gardener has a tall Trachy.  He may have lost his Washingtonia Robusta during an unusually cold spell in January - he has cut it back to see if it will revive.  But his CIPD seems to have gotten through, wrapped, with little damage.