Rhopalostylis x Hedyscepe

[richnorm]

Grabbed these two at our annual rare palm auction.  Always a risk of pollen contamination of course but they were created by an experienced hybridiser and are possibly showing a little hybrid vigour. Will be fun to watch them progess.

[Pando]

Hedylostylis or Rhopyscepe? 

Cool! It will be interesting to see how they will look.

[dalmatiansoap]

And of these already done?

[Ben in Norcal]

I didn't even know this was possible!  Do keep us apprised! 

[awkonradi]

Damn, that could be a magnificent cross.  As Ben says, keep us informed!

[Pal Meir]

Very nice! And what does this "intergeneric" hybrid mean? Nature teaches us that Hedyscepe and Rhopalostylis belong to one and the same genus. In the theory of science this is called "falsification“ of a statement, in this case the establishment of two different genera. But botanists teache us other things than nature …

[Darold Petty]

Rich, thanks for posting your hybrid purchase.  I have thought to try Hedyscepe x Archontophoenix cunninghamiana 'Illawara'.

  So far I am too much the procrastinator to have achieved this !!

[richnorm]

This has a magnificent Chatham Island for a mother.  

Who knows Pal,  I previously bought a Howea forsteriana x Laccospadix australasica from the same guy.  It's slow but strong and a true hybrid.  I think those two genera may be lumped soon.... 

Darold, there was an unconfirmed report - no more than a rumour really- of Archontophoenix x Rhopalostylis here.

[richnorm]

14 hours ago, Pando said:

Hedylostylis or Rhopyscepe? 

Cool! It will be interesting to see how they will look.

Ladies first so Rhoposcepe I guess!

[Bennz]

Do you know if there are any of these left for us southerners to try? What size are the seeds? Are there any older examples of the cross?

[richnorm]

1 hour ago, Bennz said:

Do you know if there are any of these left for us southerners to try? What size are the seeds? Are there any older examples of the cross?

Hi Ben,

John Lok made this hybrid.  I am pretty sure he has more.  The seeds were normal which is to be expected.  I have not heard of any others attempts at this cross. You do see the occasional odd looking older Hedyscepe here with rather upright leaves and thicker trunk.  Dick's one springs to mind and I think that may have come from seed from that very early example that grew at Totara North for many decades....

[Tassie_Troy1971]

looks like the real deal ~!

[sarasota alex]

On 11/22/2015, 12:29:33, Pal Meir said:

Very nice! And what does this "intergeneric" hybrid mean? Nature teaches us that Hedyscepe and Rhopalostylis belong to one and the same genus. In the theory of science this is called "falsification“ of a statement, in this case the establishment of two different genera. But botanists teache us other things than nature …

Pal Meir, "falsification" is a pretty strong word. What makes you say that? There's been a ton of anatomical and molecular studies done and none ever suggested that these are congeneric. Hedyscepe and Rhopalostylis have been placed, however, together by Dransfield, et al. (2008) into a subtribe Rhopalostylidinae, based on multiple studies, but the most recent DNA analysis (Baker et al. 2011) actually does not support the monophyly of this subtribe and shows Hedyscepe to be closely related Basselinia and embedded in the Basseliniinae subtribe.

[richnorm]

That's interesting Alex. I think Lepidhorrachis may also be related to Basselinia.  Perhaps we should try that cross!

[Pal Meir]

6 hours ago, sarasota alex said:

Pal Meir, "falsification" is a pretty strong word. What makes you say that? There's been a ton of anatomical and molecular studies done and none ever suggested that these are congeneric. Hedyscepe and Rhopalostylis have been placed, however, together by Dransfield, et al. (2008) into a subtribe Rhopalostylidinae, based on multiple studies, but the most recent DNA analysis (Baker et al. 2011) actually does not support the monophyly of this subtribe and shows Hedyscepe to be closely related Basselinia and embedded in the Basseliniinae subtribe.

And what is the definition of "genus" in botany? Why do they study the morphology of flowers etc. if they don’t consider the consequences? I think "natural sciences“ should observe and describe nature how it is, and not prescribe how nature has to be.

[sarasota alex]

6 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

And what is the definition of "genus" in botany? Why do they study the morphology of flowers etc. if they don’t consider the consequences? I think "natural sciences“ should observe and describe nature how it is, and not prescribe how nature has to be.

We still need to be able to classify plants

[sarasota alex]

11 hours ago, richnorm said:

That's interesting Alex. I think Lepidhorrachis may also be related to Basselinia.  Perhaps we should try that cross!

In GP2 Lepidorrhachis is actually included in the Basseliniinae based on morphological similarities, but the same recent DNA paper (Baker et al. 2011) doesn't fully support it.

[Josh76]

How are these looking now @richnorm? I'd love to see some recent pics.

[richnorm]

Both still growing but not yet trunking. They look like Nikau but are slower and a lighter green than some Chatham Island forms.  Fortunately Chathams flower very early so might not have to wait too long for more conclusive information on their true identity.

[Billeb]

2 hours ago, richnorm said:

 

…..I gotta tell ya, I was skeptical of this plant thinking to myself, “there’s just no way??!?!” 

Looking at the mature plant….i think you may have something there! It does look like is has Rhopie and Hedy traits. Pretty awesome. 
 

-dale 

[tim_brissy_13]

3 hours ago, richnorm said:

Both still growing but not yet trunking. They look like Nikau but are slower and a lighter green than some Chatham Island forms.  Fortunately Chathams flower very early so might not have to wait too long for more conclusive information on their true identity.

Can you get a shot of the crownshaft/leaf base area Richard? Looks interesting. If it is a hybrid looks to be Rhopalostylis dominant. 
 

Id be curious to see how your Howea x Laccospadix has turned out too!

[richnorm]

38 minutes ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Can you get a shot of the crownshaft/leaf base area Richard? Looks interesting. If it is a hybrid looks to be Rhopalostylis dominant. 
 

Id be curious to see how your Howea x Laccospadix has turned out too!

Here you go. One shot of each of the Nikau crosses and one of the Laccospadix cross.   I was subsequently told that the HxL is in fact LxH so I now question whether that is a successful cross but again time will tell. It has also been very slow, even by Laccospadix standards but has a nice red new leaf.

[tim_brissy_13]

6 minutes ago, richnorm said:

Here you go. One shot of each of the Nikau crosses and one of the Laccospadix cross.   I was subsequently told that the HxL is in fact LxH so I now question whether that is a successful cross but again time will tell. It has also been very slow, even by Laccospadix standards but has a nice red new leaf.

Are the second and third photos of different palms? I can’t put my finger on it but something about the second photo gives me a Hedyscepe vibe while the third could almost be a copy of my Chatham Island Rhopalostylis. 
 

The suspected L x H is a beauty, maybe typical of pure Laccospadix at this stage so I guess jury is still out. 

[DoomsDave]

Wow! Obscenities have been screamed!

Those would be just the thing here in coastal Southern California!

[richnorm]

1 hour ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Are the second and third photos of different palms? I can’t put my finger on it but something about the second photo gives me a Hedyscepe vibe while the third could almost be a copy of my Chatham Island Rhopalostylis. 
 

The suspected L x H is a beauty, maybe typical of pure Laccospadix at this stage so I guess jury is still out. 

Yeah, I have two of the RxH.  I am keeping an open mind on all of them and hoping flowering will be conclusive but certainly they all look a lot like the mothers!  The guy that did the crosses also does Cycas and has had spectacuar results so I don't doubt the care taken though pollen contamination with palms is a much bigger risk.

[Josh76]

Wow wow wow wow wow wow!!!

[David B]

This is my plant of the same cross from John Lok. Just starting to trunk. And a photo of heydescepe and the possible hybrid

[tim_brissy_13]

1 hour ago, David B said:

This is my plant of the same cross from John Lok. Just starting to trunk. And a photo of heydescepe and the possible hybrid

I can see a bit of Hedy in that I think!

[richnorm]

2 hours ago, David B said:

This is my plant of the same cross from John Lok. Just starting to trunk. And a photo of heydescepe and the possible hybrid

 

Thanks for that David. Have you noticed Hedyscepe-like auricles on the leaf base? Also sometimes looks intermediate in terms of the leaf ridges (upper surface) but must admit I have looked way too hard at them! Both hate dry summers like we just had that's for sure.

[David B]

I’m not a taxonomist. If the female parent was a Chatham rhopie - it seems to me to have less shuttlecock and more recurved form.
It’s planted near a huge rimu and I struggle to give it enough water in summer. I think I’ll put an irrigation sidearm from the avocados. The palms really grow better with more summer moisture.